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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27725494 -

Psilynut2 said:
Russia just blew up a train station full of women and children with a rocket attack , 
    fuck Russia .



Provide sources pls.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725502 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
It seems the site LB.ua's been around since 2009, and has a very large viwership, including accounts on both Facebook and Twitter.  It's a real site!

So this appears to be evidence that Ukraine is responsible for the civilian deaths in Bucha based on the date of the article.

Edit:  I suspect the article won't be there for too long, so I downloaded a copy to my computer.


How is anything in that article evidence

We have the satellite images showing the bodies had been left in the street to rot for two weeks before Ukraine recaptured the town. Dozens of witnesses say the Russians were systematically killing men under the age of 50.

You’re simply lying on behalf of Russia. You have all this witness testimony, plus the physical and recorded visual evidence to back that testimony up. There is no reasonable doubt that Russian troops executed dozens of people in Bucha.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro]
    #27725505 -

https://thehill.com/policy/international/3262340-russian-missile-strike-kills-dozens-at-train-station-used-for-evacuations/
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/russia-ukraine-conflict/ukraine-russian-missile-kills-30-civilians-at-train-station

The second one said Russian separatists think Ukraine shot the missile at themselves.


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"The Rolling Stones will break up over Brian Jones' dead body"    John Lennon

I don't want no commies in my car. No Christians either.

Simulacrum
The truth which conceals that there is none

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27725510 -

chopstick said:
koods said:
If Russian troops don’t want to get executed they can stay home.


Are you even the slightest bit aware that Russia has 3,000 Ukrainian PoW's in captivity?

So should Russia just execute them all since Ukraine has shown they have absolutely no dignity or restraint whatsoever?


The Russian soldiers are the aggressors. They are responsible for everything that happens in Ukraine due to their illegal invasion. Ukrainian soldiers are the victims. I think the Ukrainians have the right to kill any Russian soldier on their land. Take prisoners to exchange or just finish them off when you have the time. The Russians surrendered their human rights when they crossed the border. Don’t torture them, but if you find an injured Russian just kill the motherfucker. You have to take care of him, use up your medical resources desperately needed by your own citizens? You have to feed them? Guard them? Fuck that shit. It’s honestly kinda ridiculous.

Quote:
“He’s still alive. Film these marauders. Look, he’s still alive. He’s gasping,” a man says as a Russian soldier with a jacket pulled over his head, apparently wounded, seems to breathe. A soldier shoots the man twice. He keeps moving, the soldier shoots him again, and he stops.


I got no problem with this.

Edited by koods (04/08/22 01:15 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Brian Jones]
    #27725514 -

Brian Jones said:
https://thehill.com/policy/international/3262340-russian-missile-strike-kills-dozens-at-train-station-used-for-evacuations/
https://www.wcpo.com/news/national/russia-ukraine-conflict/ukraine-russian-missile-kills-30-civilians-at-train-station

The second one said Russian separatists think Ukraine shot the missile at themselves.


According to Russian propaganda, Ukraine has spent most of the war bombing its own cities.

Come on, does anyone actually believe this crap? The stuff that comes out of Putin’s disinformation campaign is so over the top, I don’t understand how people actually think it’s true. Do they not have any common sense?


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: syncro] * 1
    #27725576 -

syncro said:
Psilynut2 said:
Russia just blew up a train station full of women and children with a rocket attack , 
    fuck Russia .



Provide sources pls.


Here's a source:

Russia claims to know details of deadly missile strike in Ukraine conflict
Quote:
The Russian Defense Ministry denied any responsibility for the attack. It said that Ukrainian troops must have targeted the station to disrupt the evacuation and keep civilians in the city so that they could be used as human shields during an upcoming fight for it.

The ministry claimed that Kiev is the only party in the Ukraine conflict that uses outdated Soviet-made Tochka U missiles.



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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725584 -

The world doesn't believe anything Russia has to say anymore . Like I said , fuck them .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 2
    #27725600 -

Haha yeah fuck em', who cares about the truth anymore? What do you mean the strike was carried out with an outdated Tochka-U system that only Ukraine is using right now? Heh, nothing to see here, move along now.

This is the exact same scenario as the Donetsk strike that killed 23. Ukraine can just kill whomever they like and immediately turn and blame it on Russia to avoid any kind of culpability. You have that kind of power when the media has your back.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: chopstick]
    #27725634 -

Or when your the one who invades , you lose all moral high ground  and no one cares if people commit war crimes against you .
No one cares if people lie about you , go the fuck home .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2] * 1
    #27725648 -

Psilynut2 said:
Or when your the one who invades , you lose all moral high ground  and no one cares if people commit war crimes against you .
No one cares if people lie about you , go the fuck home .


At first it was "look at all the atrocities Russia is committing!".  Now it's "when your the one who invades... no one cares if people commit war crimes against you. No one cares if people lie about you , go the fuck home ."

That's progress!

Though I'd argue that there are people, myself included, who do care if war crimes are being committed.

In this case, it appears Ukraine was committing more war crimes against its own people, which is rather concerning, and we now have hundreds, if not thousands of Ukrainian witnesses who have come out and confirmed this to be true.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725666 -

At first it was " we aren't invading its just an military exorcise . "
  Then  it was " it's not an invasion , it's a special operation, for Nazis " 

I think we should call Russia's bluff and enforce the no fly zone . I don't they will start using nukes over it .

Just between you and me if you ever find yourself invading my neighborhood it will be in your best interest to fight to the death .  I'll torture you. I'll hook you up to an IV so I can keep torturing you .
      I don't care about the concept of war crimes or even think it should exist . Having rules for  war turns into a sport.  I believe it to be the one of the reasons we keep seeing so much of it
    You shouldn't expect to be treated fairly if you invade someone else's country .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27725692 -

In a break with the past, U.S. is using intel to fight an info war with Russia, even when the intel isn't rock solid

NBC News
6 Apr 22

Quote:
It was an attention-grabbing assertion that made headlines around the world: U.S. officials said they had indications suggesting Russia might be preparing to use chemical agents in Ukraine.

President Joe Biden later said it publicly. But three U.S. officials told NBC News this week there is no evidence Russia has brought any chemical weapons near Ukraine. They said the U.S. released the information to deter Russia from using the banned munitions.

It’s one of a string of examples of the Biden administration’s breaking with recent precedent by deploying declassified intelligence as part of an information war against Russia. The administration has done so even when the intelligence wasn’t rock solid, officials said, to keep Russian President Vladimir Putin off balance.
.
.
.
Likewise, a charge that Russia had turned to China for potential military help lacked hard evidence, a European official and two U.S. officials said.

The U.S. officials said there are no indications China is considering providing weapons to Russia. The Biden administration put that out as a warning to China not to do so, they said.


More about the US disinformation campaign here.

Looks like koods and Psilynut2 got fooled, along with others here.  :lol:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725699 -

Sounds like effective disinformation. Ukraine and the west is running circles around Russia with this stuff.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27725702 -

Quote:
The ministry claimed that Kiev is the only party in the Ukraine conflict that uses outdated Soviet-made Tochka U missiles.



Lol Jesus these people. The difference between western disinformation and Russian disinformation is the Russian stuff is only believable if you’re a brainwashed moron


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27725706 -

Quote:
At first it was "look at all the atrocities Russia is committing!".  Now it's "when your the one who invades... no one cares if people commit war crimes against you. No one cares if people lie about you , go the fuck home ."

That's progress!

Though I'd argue that there are people, myself included, who do care if war crimes are being committed.


Now that is make believe. :lol:

I don’t care if Ukrainians are mean to the Russians. They are fighting in their own home towns against a unprovoked invasion that if they don’t repel will result in the subjugation of their county to a fascist dictator. They get to do whatever they need to do to the invaders to save their country. Every soldier they don’t kill is a soldier that will be there to fight them tomorrow. What an absurd idea that they have to follow rules that handicap their ability to protect themselves.


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27725707 -

koods said:
Sounds like effective disinformation. Ukraine and the west is running circles around Russia with this stuff.


That's similar to what an NBC viewer said:

Quote:
Isn’t this awesome? Our president is pulling off all these cool 3D chess moves to beat Putin, and we’re kind of a part of it!



--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725708 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
This goes back to whether the entirety of Ukraine gets to decide, or if Donbas gets to decide.  If you think the entirety of Ukraine should get to decide, then clearly you oppose the overthrow of the elected Government and side with Donbas.  If you think Donbas should get to decide, we've seen the election results/polling data.  I guess you want to believe if another election were held, the results would be different?

shivas.wisdom said:
The situation in Northern Ireland isn't a 1:1 comparison to the situation in east Ukraine...


Exactly.  In your opinion, what should the entirety of Ukraine decide, and what should the peole of Donbas decide?  Nevermind, I believe you answered that in your next statement...

shivas.wisdom said:
In the case of eastern Ukraine, all the people of Ukraine should be included in developing a process for territorial autonomy (without separation) and complete territorial separation. Afterwards, the people within the relevant region should be the only ones included in the decision. This allows the entire population to be included in the process, without a national majority overwhelming a regional majority.


I agree in principle, but Ukraine did a big fuck you by saying they no longer recognize the Government that Crimea/Donbas helped elect.  THAT'S what sparked the calls for separation by people whose voices were ignored.


The people of Ukraine in its entirety should decide what the process of determining regional autonomy and/or sovereignty is. Afterwards, the people of the Donbas should decide it's specific regional status.

Maybe the results would be the same - that would be fine. The point isn't to find a system that prevents autonomy - the point is to find a system that allows a plurality of outcomes, that all relevant parties can agree to. That way - even if the results are unchanged - the results are significantly less likely to be challenged as illegitimate, and the region less likely to devolve into a conflict zone.

Playing the blame game won't end this conflict. Right or wrong, both sides can point to something the other side did that they feel "sparked" the conflict. The UK and Republic of Ireland both had to make constitutional amendments away from unilateral interpretations of Northern Irelands status, in order for the Belfast agreement to be implemented - not recognizing Northern Irelands status wasn't to big to overcome; neither should it be with regards to Ukraine.

Nationalism is a hell of a drug - Greece and North Macedonia conflicted for decades over a name - not a border, a name. The point of something like the Belfast agreement isn't to decide who wins, it's to prevent military conflict by providing a nonviolent method of resolution that all relevant parties can agree to. Otherwise, right or wrong, these types of conflicts can last for generations. It's essentially a harm-reduction approach for those addicted to nationalism.

I'm not suggesting this route would be easy. It would require international pressure - but most nations have their own internal independence movements, and are loath to normalize a process of self-determining that may be brought home one day. Decades of unending violence in Ireland was a huge motivator in getting everyone to the negotiating table - hopefully we can take those hard learned lessons and apply them to Ukraine before this conflict drags on for decades. Two things are certain though: this type of resolution is infinitely preferable to military conflict; and this type of negotiation remains impossible while the Russian state is belligerently enforcing a one-sided status quo.

If you disagree with my assessment, but still agree with the principle of the Belfast agreement, then how would you see such an agreement implemented in Ukraine?


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: koods]
    #27725713 -

koods said:
Lol Jesus these people. The difference between western disinformation and Russian disinformation is the Russian stuff is only believable if you’re a brainwashed moron


As you know, I'm always interested in reading your source material that Russia has Tocha missiles, if you have it.  Even Wikipedia said Russia got rid of them in 2019.

Why don't you share your source material instead of the usual name calling ("brainwashed moron")  :popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27725714 -

Psilynut2 said:
At first it was " we aren't invading its just an military exorcise . "
  Then  it was " it's not an invasion , it's a special operation, for Nazis " 

I think we should call Russia's bluff and enforce the no fly zone . I don't they will start using nukes over it .
.


Yeah the west has been far too meek about that. Letting Russia dictate the rules for an invasion of a sovereign country.

I do think we sent them those planes, tho.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27725715 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
koods said:
Lol Jesus these people. The difference between western disinformation and Russian disinformation is the Russian stuff is only believable if you’re a brainwashed moron


As you know, I'm always interested in reading your source material that Russia has Tocha missiles, if you have it.  Even Wikipedia said Russia got rid of them in 2019.

Why don't you share your source material instead of the usual name calling ("brainwashed moron")  :popcorn:


Wikipedia could be edited by Lavrov himself.

Good lord you’re silly


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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