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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27723774 -

ballsalsa said:
I'm not doing regime change, I'm giving the people in Afghanistan what they want. We'll be greeted as liberators...


I think you need to stop with the sarcasm.  You NEVER seem to hit the mark.

For example, did 95% of Afghanistan want US regime change?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723791 -

I'd bet at least 95% of Ukrainians don't want a regime change .


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Psilynut2]
    #27723797 -

No, not 95% of Ukrainians, but 95% of the people in Crimea who voted to leave Ukraine after we helped overthrow their elected Government.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27723798 -

I'm not sure why you say "I agree!", only to immediately contradict my post.

One of the most important aspects of the Belfast Agreement was acknowledging the following views as legitimate: (1) the majority of the people of Northern Ireland who wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom; and both (2) the substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland and (3) the majority of the people of the island of Ireland who wished to bring about a united Ireland. Another absolutely integral aspect was developing a process for determining North Ireland's status that all relevant parties could agree on. The third fundamental aspect was creating a mechanism so that people living in Northern Ireland could legally identify as either Irish, British, or both - regardless of Northern Ireland's status.

The votes that you mention were not considered legitimate by all relevant parties. In order to be considered legitimate, a pre-agreed process of determination needs to be used. This requires negotiation, which is only possible if both separatist and nationalist views are first acknowledged as being legitimate. None of that has happened in Ukraine. The annexation of Crimea was unilateral because, continuing the thought from above, it occurred under a process that was unilaterally enforced by the Russian state; rather than (as the Belfast agreement stipulates) through a pre-agreed upon process.

Talking about being "supported by the vast majority of the people in Donbas and Crimea" flies completely in the face of the acknowledgement (in the Belfast agreement) that a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland who wished to bring about a united Ireland held legitimate views too! It's not about majority rule (assuming your claim is correct) - it's about acknowledging a plurality of views as legitimate, and finding a compromise that allows even the minority populations to feel heard. That's how you deescalate - not by leaning on sketchy votes to validate military invasion.

And I don't give a fuck about how "Russia might be upset about US imperialism" - that isn't reasonable justification for the military invasion of Ukraine. I thought I made this clear when I said "talking about which entity is most guilty isn't even very helpful". Britain was guilty of a whole fucking lot more in Northern Ireland, but they still kept their territorial sovereignty until the pre-agreed upon vote happens.

As for resistance by the Ukrainian state, to the prospects of losing territory or citizens to Russia - sure, very few nation-states have willingly given up territorial sovereignty in the past - but the Belfast agreement shows us that such a thing is possible to agree upon. Imagine how much more powerful the claims of the Russian state would be, regarding current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells.

And then, to conclude your post, you once again dig into how very happy the "vast majority of people in those regions" would be - shrugging off "a lot of butt hurt mainland Ukrainians" and once again displaying that you have absolutely no understanding about what the Belfast agreement represents when you decided to blithely shout "I agree!"


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723815 -

Quote:
No, not 95% of Ukrainians, but 95% of the people in Crimea who voted to leave Ukraine after we helped overthrow their elected Government.


 
  Do you think it pisses  off the average Ukrainian  when they hear you give us all the credit  for that ?


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Edited by Psilynut2 (04/06/22 08:19 PM)

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27723862 -

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not sure why you say "I agree!", only to immediately contradict my post.


I don't think I contradicted it, see below.

shivas.wisdom said:
One of the most important aspects of the Belfast Agreement was acknowledging the following views as legitimate: (1) the majority of the people of Northern Ireland who wished to remain a part of the United Kingdom


Right, and the vast majority of people in Crimea and Donbas DON'T want to remain part of Ukraine

shivas.wisdom said:
(2) the substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland and (3) the majority of the people of the island of Ireland who wished to bring about a united Ireland.


Do you have any evidence that the majority of Ukrainians and ethnic Russians want to unite like the Irish?

shivas.wisdom said:
Another absolutely integral aspect was developing a process for determining North Ireland's status that all relevant parties could agree on. The third fundamental aspect was creating a mechanism so that people living in Northern Ireland could legally identify as either Irish, British, or both - regardless of Northern Ireland's status.


This would have been nice, and there WAS relative peace before the coup.

shivas.wisdom said:
The votes that you mention were not considered legitimate by all relevant parties. In order to be considered legitimate, a pre-agreed process of determination needs to be used. This requires negotiation, which is only possible if both separatist and nationalist views are first acknowledged as being legitimate. None of that has happened in Ukraine.


Are you saying Nationalists inside of Crimea or Donbas weren't allowed to fairly vote?
Again, there have been many polls since the referendum showing the results were about right; you just don't want to believe it.

shivas.wisdom said:
The annexation of Crimea was unilateral because, continuing the thought from above, it occurred under a process that was unilaterally enforced by the Russian state; rather than (as the Belfast agreement stipulates) through a pre-agreed upon process.

Talking about being "supported by the vast majority of the people in Donbas and Crimea" flies completely in the face of the acknowledgement (in the Belfast agreement) that a substantial section of the people of Northern Ireland and the majority of the people of the island of Ireland who wished to bring about a united Ireland held legitimate views too! It's not about majority rule (assuming your claim is correct) - it's about acknowledging a plurality of views as legitimate, and finding a compromise that allows even the minority populations to feel heard. That's how you deescalate - not by leaning on sketchy votes to validate military invasion.


"Sketchy" votes?  Not one person I spoke with on EITHER side of the vote felt there was anything wrong with the vote.  I'd be fine with another vote as I know it'd turn out the same based on polling data.

shivas.wisdom said:
And I don't give a fuck about how "Russia might be upset about US imperialism" - that isn't reasonable justification for the military invasion of Ukraine.


Of course you don't give a fuck, you don't live in Russia.

shivas.wisdom said:
As for resistance by the Ukrainian state, to the prospects of losing territory or citizens to Russia - sure, very few nation-states have willingly given up territorial sovereignty in the past - but the Belfast agreement shows us that such a thing is possible to agree upon. Imagine how much more powerful the claims of the Russian state would be, regarding current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells.


"Losing territory to Russia"?  Is Russia now claiming Donbas?  I haven't read that yet.  Source?

shivas.wisdom said:
And then, to conclude your post, you once again dig into how very happy the "vast majority of people in those regions" would be - shrugging off "a lot of butt hurt mainland Ukrainians" and once again displaying that you have absolutely no understanding about what the Belfast agreement represents when you decided to blithely shout "I agree!"


See above.  You said Northern Ireland should have a say in whether to stay or go.  But Crimean and Donbas shouldn't?  :shrug:

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27723887 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, not 95% of Ukrainians, but 95% of the people in Crimea who voted to leave Ukraine after we helped overthrow their elected Government.


Regardless of the context or subject for someone to believe in a number like that they have little understanding of human behaviour or statistics.

Its a contrived number.


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Just a fool on the hill.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: pineninja]
    #27723961 -

You're going to have to do a LOT better.  I have a math degree with a concentration in statistics.

There's three things that indicate the number is real.

1.  The results of the referendum (you don't have to believe it by itself)
2.  I travelled to Crimea to determine if the polls were correct, and everyone I spoke with believed the results (you still don't have to believe it)
3.  Multiple polls showed the same, including Gallup (this one is pretty indisputable, even if the polling results were off by 1 or 2 percent as is sometimes the case with polling data)

Now, please tell me why I "have little understanding of human behaviour or statistics".  Something gives me the feeling you just made that up, but I'm happy to be proven wrong.  :popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #27724036 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
ballsalsa said:
I'm not doing regime change, I'm giving the people in Afghanistan what they want. We'll be greeted as liberators...


I think you need to stop with the sarcasm.  You NEVER seem to hit the mark.

For example, did 95% of Afghanistan want US regime change?


95% of the Kabul government which was 100% reliant on U.S. involvement to maintain thier limited independence from the previous government probably did. Just like the breakaway territories under Russian occupation whose political leaders rely on Russian patronage for their political power.  It's very interesting to me how these sorts of things are so obvious to you when examining the motives and actions of some shadowy groups of assholes but you have such a hard time seeing other shadowy assholes as doing anything but fart rainbows. The fact that you don't seem to have any issue with votes held at gunpoint is particularly telling. I don't think I've seen you cut anyone but Putin that sort of leeway.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724050 -

"I don't think I contradicted it, see below."

The Belfast agreement was about legitimizing both Republican and Loyalist wishes - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.




"Right, and the vast majority of people in Crimea and Donbas DON'T want to remain part of Ukraine"

I'm not sure if that's true. Crimea is the only part of Ukraine that has a Russian majority. Eastern Ukraine runs from 55-70% ethnic Ukrainian - compared to 25% in Crimea and 95% in the far west.

Regardless, the point of the Belfast agreement wasn't to unilaterally force a majority opinion - it was to legitimize a plurality of opinions to the greatest extent possible, and to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement so that neither side felt violence was the only option remaining - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.




"Do you have any evidence that the majority of Ukrainians and ethnic Russians want to unite like the Irish?"

The people of Ireland don't all want to unite - that was kinda the reason behind the Troubles. This question is like asking for evidence that the majority of Irish Republicans and Ulster Loyalists want to unite, before going ahead with the Belfast agreement.

That the majority of Ukrainians want to preserve national unity seems fairly self evident. That a substantial portion of people in eastern Ukraine want to separate is also self-evident. That a significant portion of people in eastern Ukraine don't want to separate also seems self-evident, given that the separatist movement doesn't have consistent support across the entire region - but if you prefer polls, here is one (75% of residents in the Donbas areas still governed by national authorities believed that Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts should remain within Ukraine).

So yes, just like the Belfast agreement, any realistic deescalation in eastern Ukraine would need to start by recognizing the people of Ukraine who want territorial integrity, the people of eastern Ukraine who want to separate, and the people of eastern Ukraine who don't want to separate as all holding legitimate views - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.
 



"This would have been nice, and there WAS relative peace before the coup."

There also was relative peace before the invasion. 78 people died in the DPR as a result of this conflict in 2021 - how many have died since Russia invaded?




"'Sketchy' votes?  Not one person I spoke with on EITHER side of the vote felt there was anything wrong with the vote.  I'd be fine with another vote as I know it'd turn out the same based on polling data."

Yes, sketchy votes because they were highly controversial processes that played out during active occupation by partisan forces. Not many people consider these circumstances conducive to democracy. Instead of continually leaning on votes that are considered illegitimate by many, adopting the sentiment of the Belfast agreement would mean finding a new process of voting that all sides can agree on.




"Of course you don't give a fuck, you don't live in Russia."

No, I don't give a fuck because that isn't reasonable justification for the military invasion of Ukraine.




"'Losing territory to Russia' ?  Is Russia now claiming Donbas?  I haven't read that yet.  Source?"

Gonna just pretend that Crimea didn't happen? Losing territory to Russia is absolutely a relevant concern.




See above.  You said Northern Ireland should have a say in whether to stay or go.  But Crimean and Donbas shouldn't? :shrug:

It's so simple, I don't understand why you can't process this. The people of Ukraine in its entirety should have a say - the people in Crimea and Donbas who want to separate should have a say - the people in Crimea and Donbas who don't want to separate should have a say. All three groups have legitimate views, and any viable solution for deescalation will need to include all three - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27724051 -

ballsalsa said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
did 95% of Afghanistan want US regime change?


95% of the Kabul government which was 100% reliant on U.S. involvement to maintain thier limited independence from the previous government probably did. Just like the breakaway territories under Russian occupation whose political leaders rely on Russian patronage for their political power.


And how many people were in the Kabul government vs the general population?

ballsalsa said:
The fact that you don't seem to have any issue with votes held at gunpoint is particularly telling. I don't think I've seen you cut anyone but Putin that sort of leeway.


As I've said many times, I prefer facts over make believe.  You keep make believing that the millions of voters in Crimea voted at gunpoint.  No one I spoke with said they saw someone from the Russian military during the referendum.  I know you probably don't believe me anymore, but if you have evidence that over a million voters voted at gunpoint, I'm willing to look at it.  Do you?  :popcorn:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724068 -

Were Russian military forces occupying areas outside of the bases they agreed to stay on?

Did those areas include the territories in which the supposed referendums took place?

That's voting at gunpoint.

"Hey guys, the foreign government who supports my political views sent their military here to ensure a fair vote on my political views. So anyway, let's have this vote. I'm sure there won't be any selection bias"

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #27724071 -

shivas.wisdom said:
The Belfast agreement was about legitimizing both Republican and Loyalist wishes - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.


No, that's make believe.  I'm arguing that ALL the people of Crimea/Donbas wishes are legitimate.

shivas.wisdom said:
"Right, and the vast majority of people in Crimea and Donbas DON'T want to remain part of Ukraine"

I'm not sure if that's true. Crimea is the only part of Ukraine that has a Russian majority. Eastern Ukraine runs from 55-70% ethnic Ukrainian - compared to 25% in Crimea and 95% in the far west.


I'm just talking about the Donbas regions, not all of Eastern Crimea.

shivas.wisdom said:
Regardless, the point of the Belfast agreement wasn't to unilaterally force a majority opinion - it was to legitimize a plurality of opinions to the greatest extent possible, and to reach a mutually satisfactory agreement so that neither side felt violence was the only option remaining - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.


More make believe.  I'm saying the Donbas region's wishes should be counted, not just the Russian separatists.  I'm perfectly willing to say that only the separatist regions should have been allowed to separate, but that bridge may have been burned.



shivas.wisdom said:
That the majority of Ukrainians want to preserve national unity seems fairly self evident. That a substantial portion of people in eastern Ukraine want to separate is also self-evident. That a significant portion of people in eastern Ukraine don't want to separate also seems self-evident, given that the separatist movement doesn't have consistent support across the entire region - but if you prefer polls, here is one (75% of residents in the Donbas areas still governed by national authorities believed that Donetsk and Luhansk oblasts should remain within Ukraine).


At that time, even Russia thought it should remain with Ukraine.  And once again, I'm willing to say that only the separatist regions should have been allowed to separate, but that bridge has likely been burned.

shivas.wisdom said:
"'Sketchy' votes?  Not one person I spoke with on EITHER side of the vote felt there was anything wrong with the vote.  I'd be fine with another vote as I know it'd turn out the same based on polling data."

Yes, sketchy votes because they were highly controversial processes that played out during active occupation by partisan forces. Not many people consider these circumstances conducive to democracy.


Crimea was "occupied" by Russia since Ukraine split from the Soviet Union, per Ukraine's own agreement with Russia.  The troops played no part in the election.

shivas.wisdom said:
"Of course you don't give a fuck, you don't live in Russia."

No, I don't give a fuck because that isn't reasonable justification for the military invasion of Ukraine.


It may be justification if you've been continuously warned, and you continue to ignore the warnings.  Should Russia just say, "ok America, you're free to regime change throughout the world, even against our own borders"???

shivas.wisdom said:
"'Losing territory to Russia' ?  Is Russia now claiming Donbas?  I haven't read that yet.  Source?"

Gonna just pretend that Crimea didn't happen?


No.  I was responding to your statement about the "current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells."

shivas.wisdom said:
The people of Ukraine in its entirety should have a say - the people in Crimea and Donbas who want to separate should have a say - the people in Crimea and Donbas who don't want to separate should have a say. All three groups have legitimate views, and any viable solution for deescalation will need to include all three - but you're out here arguing that only the Russian separatist wishes are legitimate. That directly contradicts the pluralist victory of the Belfast agreement.


I guess I'm confused about what you meant when you said "until a majority of the people both of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise."

Did you mean it's not actually Northern Ireland's decision if enough people in the Republic of Ireland overrule them?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa]
    #27724073 -

ballsalsa said:
Were Russian military forces occupying areas outside of the bases they agreed to stay on?

Did those areas include the territories in which the supposed referendums took place?

That's voting at gunpoint.

"Hey guys, the foreign government who supports my political views sent their military here to ensure a fair vote on my political views. So anyway, let's have this vote. I'm sure there won't be any selection bias"


Again, Russian forces weren't at the polling booths watching everyone's vote.  If you really believe that's true, you need to provide some evidence please.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724080 -

I didn't say anyone at all was at any polling booth what are you talking about?

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: ballsalsa] * 1
    #27724088 -

ballsalsa said:
I didn't say anyone at all was at any polling booth what are you talking about?


You actually said something even more ridiculous - you said they were "voting at gunpoint".

No one at the voting booths even knew Russian soldiers were around, according to the locals.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724104 -

"No, that's make believe.  I'm arguing that ALL the people of Crimea/Donbas wishes are legitimate."

Odd, because you keep returning this these points: "We already know what the people in the disputed areas want." - "Giving up Crimea and Donbas would [...] make the vast majority of people in those regions very happy.  Of course there would be a lot of butt hurt mainland Ukrainians [...] but should we really care?" That doesn't strike me as legitimizing a plurality.




"I'm just talking about the Donbas regions, not all of Eastern Crimea."

I think you meant 'east Ukraine' here, not Crimea - and that's why I gave a range. If you click my source, you will see that the Donbas is ~55% ethnic Ukrainian.




"More make believe.  I'm saying the Donbas region's wishes should be counted, not just the Russian separatists.  I'm perfectly willing to say that only the separatist regions should have been allowed to separate, but that bridge may have been burned."

Then you need to acknowledge that even within separatist controlled regions, public opinion on this issue isn't uniform. A new process to determine the regions wishes needs to happen




"Crimea was "occupied" by Russia since Ukraine split from the Soviet Union, per Ukraine's own agreement with Russia. The troops played no part in the election."

You keep switching back and forth to focusing on Crimea or the Donbas, for the convenience of your argument. Loss of territory to Russia? That never happened in the Donbas! (Ignores annexation of Crimea) Partisan occupation forces? That never happened in Crimea! (Ignores the People's Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk). Discussions with you are like pulling teeth.

Believe what you want, but highly controversial processes that played out during active occupation by partisan forces are not conducive to democracy. If you truly believe that "ALL the people of Crimea/Donbas wishes are legitimate", then you need to start by acknowledging their concerns about the controversial nature of these votes rather than shrugging them off as inconsequential.




"No. I was responding to your statement about the 'current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells.'"

Okay? Losing territory to Russia is still a relevant concern - Russia wasn't claiming Crimea until the day it suddenly started claiming Crimea. Although now I'm reminded that you never really responded to that statement - you avoided the point by zeroing in on "losing territory to Russia".

Full quote: "As for resistance by the Ukrainian state, to the prospects of losing territory or citizens to Russia - sure, very few nation-states have willingly given up territorial sovereignty in the past - but the Belfast agreement shows us that such a thing is possible to agree upon. Imagine how much more powerful the claims of the Russian state would be, regarding current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells."

Why not address the substance of the statement, instead of pittling around? Like pulling teeth.




"I guess I'm confused about what you meant when you said 'until a majority of the people both of Northern Ireland and of the Republic of Ireland wished otherwise.'

Did you mean it's not actually Northern Ireland's decision if enough people in the Republic of Ireland overrule them?"

The situation in Northern Ireland isn't a 1:1 comparison to the situation in east Ukraine - although the general sentiment of the Belfast agreement applies, the solution would need to be unique to the region. In the case of NI, in order for the region to unify with Ireland a majority of the people in both NI and Ireland would need to agree - in order for the region to remain in the UK, a majority of the people in only NI need to agree. But this entire process was the result of an agreement between NI, Ireland, and the UK - all relevant parties had input.

In the case of eastern Ukraine, all the people of Ukraine should be included in developing a process for territorial autonomy (without separation) and complete territorial separation. Afterwards, the people within the relevant region should be the only ones included in the decision. This allows the entire population to be included in the process, without a national majority overwhelming a regional majority.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #27724160 -

Quote:
That doesn't say both sides are investigating Buchra.  It says the UN has staff in seven offices on both sides of the contact line.

I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that they are allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.


Right, it doesn't explicitly say that. I actually also heard that Russia will take part in the investigation in an interview to a UN Commissioner. Sorry, right now  i'm not able to find it, but i'll try to.

On a side note, Russia is an important member of UN, with veto right, security council, International Court of Justice (has a judje in it) wich is not the International Criminal Court, but also has started (actually is about to start) an investigation. I think the investigation that will involve Russia is the ICJ. I'm not sure about the ICC one because Russia (and USA) didn't ratified its statute.

If you ask me how an international investigation and trial works, i don't know, i'm not an expert in international jurisprudence.
But I'd be VERY surprised if you found any evidence indicating that the ICJ in NOT allowing Russia to participate in the Buchra investigation.

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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: iggyhiggy] * 2
    #27724285 -

Here’s US officials plainly telling NBC News that their claims based on “intelligence” are simply made up to preempt Russia.

https://twitter.com/camilapress/status/1511826552090157058?s=21&t=k4z2tB1sCVLjd-a2NxQmkQ

Reminding you good folks out there once again that you are not immune to propaganda.


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Re: The Official Ukraine War Thread. [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #27724361 -

shivas.wisdom said:
...you need to acknowledge that even within separatist controlled regions, public opinion on this issue isn't uniform. A new process to determine the regions wishes needs to happen


I acknowledge it.  I even provided election results showing it's not 100%.

shivas.wisdom said:
You keep switching back and forth to focusing on Crimea or the Donbas, for the convenience of your argument. Loss of territory to Russia? That never happened in the Donbas! (Ignores annexation of Crimea) Partisan occupation forces? That never happened in Crimea! (Ignores the People's Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk). Discussions with you are like pulling teeth.


To me it appears you're the one jumping around.  We were talking about the current conflict, yet "loss of territory to Russia?  See Crimea!"  Anyway, let's get back to the big picture.  We both acknowledge that people should have a say.  It's not clear to me if you mean the entirety of Ukraine should have a say, or just the entirety of Donbas?  Because if you meant the former, the Western Ukrainians overthrowing their democratically elected Government meant they already disregarded the wishes of the entirety of Ukraine.

shivas.wisdom said:
If you truly believe that "ALL the people of Crimea/Donbas wishes are legitimate", then you need to start by acknowledging their concerns about the controversial nature of these votes rather than shrugging them off as inconsequential.


Again, I DO think ALL the people of Crimea/Donbas wishes are legitimate, and I believe we know what they want based on polling data (in case you think the election results weren't accurate).

shivas.wisdom said:
Losing territory to Russia is still a relevant concern - Russia wasn't claiming Crimea until the day it suddenly started claiming Crimea.


Why can't you be more honest?  Russia wasn't claiming Crimea until Ukraine's elected Government was overthrown, and the Crimean people said they would prefer to rejoin Russia than serve under an unelected Government.

shivas.wisdom said:
Although now I'm reminded that you never really responded to that statement - you avoided the point by zeroing in on "losing territory to Russia".

Full quote: "As for resistance by the Ukrainian state, to the prospects of losing territory or citizens to Russia - sure, very few nation-states have willingly given up territorial sovereignty in the past - but the Belfast agreement shows us that such a thing is possible to agree upon. Imagine how much more powerful the claims of the Russian state would be, regarding current Ukrainian resistance to humanitarian corridors into Russia, if they didn't occur beneath a backdrop of falling Russian missiles and shells."

Why not address the substance of the statement, instead of pittling around? Like pulling teeth.


This goes back to whether the entirety of Ukraine gets to decide, or if Donbas gets to decide.  If you think the entirety of Ukraine should get to decide, then clearly you oppose the overthrow of the elected Government and side with Donbas.  If you think Donbas should get to decide, we've seen the election results/polling data.  I guess you want to believe if another election were held, the results would be different?

shivas.wisdom said:
The situation in Northern Ireland isn't a 1:1 comparison to the situation in east Ukraine...


Exactly.  In your opinion, what should the entirety of Ukraine decide, and what should the peole of Donbas decide?  Nevermind, I believe you answered that in your next statement...

shivas.wisdom said:
In the case of eastern Ukraine, all the people of Ukraine should be included in developing a process for territorial autonomy (without separation) and complete territorial separation. Afterwards, the people within the relevant region should be the only ones included in the decision. This allows the entire population to be included in the process, without a national majority overwhelming a regional majority.


I agree in principle, but Ukraine did a big fuck you by saying they no longer recognize the Government that Crimea/Donbas helped elect.  THAT'S what sparked the calls for separation by people whose voices were ignored.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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