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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: unbeliever]
    #2762080 -

"Source? Also, "all of which could have resumed production on a moment's notice" is an extremely subjective statement. Assume your neighbor has bags of fertalizer in his garage, even assuming he's a violent felon that doesn't automatically mean he's going to go blow something up."

The source for all of that is in the Kay report. The report that liberals point to in "proving" that Iraq had no WMD. The subjective assesments were offered by David Kay. And if my neighbor had killed hundreds of thousands of people with chemical weapons before, I would not want him to be alive, much less acquiring more chemical weapons.

The source on the refernce strains is also in the Kay report. The UN inspectors didn't find them after a decade, and the onus was not on them to find them. The onus was on Sadaam to comply. He flat out didn't. It cannot be denied with a straight face.

"- new research on brucella and Congo-Crimean hemorrhagic fever, and continuing work on ricin and aflatoxin; By who exactly? What kind of work? Was it applied towards the production of WMD?

I am sure that Sadaam didn't want to apply Congo-Crimean towards the production of WMD. I think he was actually trying to get himself a Nobel Prize in Science and the respect of his peers in the medical community.

The symtoms of CCHF:
After an incubation period of 2-7 days there is a sudden onset of flu-like symptoms including a severe headache, chills, fever, headache, muscular, lumbar and abdominal pain, nausea and vomiting. After 3-5 days, hemorrhage begins and is seen as a red or purple discoloration of the skin and the development of nosebleeds. In about half of all cases the liver is enlarged (hepatomegaly). Blood is found in saliva, urine, black skin patches and vomit. This will lead to shock, vascular collapse and death about 10 days after the onset of symptoms. If the patient survives and the fever begins to subside, then a long slow recovery is possible.

Nothing to be afraid of there. It is all in the Kay report.

"-- a prison laboratory complex for testing biological weapons on humans; There is proof that this is the intented (and actualized) use of this facility? .

I do not believe that they have definitive proof that this was actualized. It is a fair question. According to the commissions testimony before Congress, this is what they specifically said it was:

"A prison laboratory complex, possibly used in human testing of BW agents, that Iraqi officials working to prepare for UN inspections were explicitly ordered not to declare to the UN."

Might not be enough for you, but I made that leap of faith quite easily. We are talking about Sadaam. Draw your own conclusions. I report, you decide!

"-- long-range missiles (prohibited by United Nations resolutions) suitable for delivering WMDs; Functioning? In any quantity? Why weren't they use before/during the war?

They had tested one to a range of 500 km. That was 350 km over the allowable limit. I am not sure how many that they had from my reading, but I know that they had more than one, and that they had been tested. They were also did some advance work on a new line that would have a range of 1000 km, but none had apparently been produced. I believe that was a matter of time, unless Sadaam found God.

"-- documents showing Saddam tried to obtain long-range ballistic missiles from North Korea; Did he obtain them? Why is it okay for Korea to have them in the first place?

He did not obtain them to my knowledge. I am not sure that North Korea wanted to sell them to a nation under UN sanctions, because it would have pissed us off. That is a guess. I don't know why. They only have proof that he tried to obtain them. I personally do not think it is a good idea for North Korea to have them.

"-- facilities for manufacturing fuel propellant useful only for prohibited Scud-variant missiles. Useful only for that purpose as determined by who? Were the facilities actively manufacturing the propellant or were they merely capable of doing so? Did they have any other potential or actual use?

This is what I have on that: "Continuing covert capability to manufacture fuel propellant useful only for prohibited SCUD variant missiles, a capability that was maintained at least until the end of 2001 and that cooperating Iraqi scientists have said they were told to conceal from the UN."

They also found "Documents and equipment, hidden in scientists' homes, that would have been useful in resuming uranium enrichment by centrifuge and electromagnetic isotope separation (EMIS)."

There you have it, to the best of my abilities. I think that these findings are significant. Put aside partisan differences and reason this out.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2762122 -

Quote:
killed hundreds of thousands of people with chemical weapons


again, thousands, not hundreds of thousands.

this thread has gotten way too messy for me to bother reading this last post.

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2762758 -

So why is Bush cracking jokes about not being able to find WMD and Powell is saying the information he gave at the UN about WMD was "inaccurate, wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading"? And that he doesn't know if he'd have invaded if he'd know the WMD wern't there?

Hasn't anyone told them they found WMD?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2763074 -

You can ask other people to explain their own statements and actions. I am not George Bush or Colin Powell. I can only guess at people's motives. And I am not saying that our intelligence wasn't substandard, because it was. That has nothing to do with the assertions of the Kay report. What we have found already is significant. I can't see how any reasonable person could possibly think otherwise. I think that there is still more to find.

The information provided to the Bush administration is the same information that was provided to Congress. They were all drinking from the same well. If the information was faulty or substandard, (and some of it was), it affected the decision making of both the President and our Congressmen. You can't expect good decisions based on bad information. In the end though, Sadaam still had these programs. He may not have had weapons stockpiles, or he may have. The key is, he retained the capacity and even enhanced some of his weapons programs despite UN Mandates. If we gave him another decade to flaunt those mandates, we could have been up shit creek. I think the information provided in the Kay report proves that taking out Sadaam was the right decision.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2763818 -

Quote:
Powell is saying the information he gave at the UN about WMD was "inaccurate, wrong and in some cases deliberately misleading"?


Still having problems with your comprehension I see. Or are you just being your usual dishonest self?

The Central Intelligence Agency and other US Government institutions were sometimes deliberately misled about alleged Iraqi weapons of mass destruction in the run-up to the war, Secretary of State Colin Powell has admitted.

The comments, made on Sunday in an interview with NBC television, represented the first public official admission that the US Government had been fed disinformation about Saddam Hussein's suspect arsenal of chemical and biological weapons and relayed it to the world community without questioning it.

"It turned out that the sourcing was inaccurate and wrong and, in some cases, deliberately misleading," Mr Powell said, appearing on NBC's Meet the Press program.

"For that I am disappointed, and I regret it."


Link


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: unbeliever]
    #2763978 -

this is an interesting discussion, but I'm sick of hearing biased stuff. Right now I am inclined to side with Jesus.

What I really want, however, is to read the facts for myself. Does anyone know if any version of the Kay report is available online? I would love to read through it myself, and make my own conclusions instead of reading someone else's interpretation.

spanks!

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Turd]
    #2764003 -

That's what Google (and other search engines) are for.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2764058 -

And I am not saying that our intelligence wasn't substandard, because it was.

Do you really think the war was about saving the world from the "threat" of Saddams "WMD"? Or was that just a convenient story?


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2764128 -

Hey Turd, thanks for listening. Trust Jesus!

Here is a transcript of David Kay's testimony before Congress.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/speeches/2003/david_kay_10022003.html

For those who have wondered why Bush said nothing of these findings, he actually did comment. I guess his comments weren't widely reported. I never remember seeing them in print or on TV. What was widely reported was the liberal spin from the New York Times that the Kay report proved that Iraq had no WMD.

Here is a quote from our Commander in Chief George W. Bush, on the findings of David Kay:

"Mr. David Kay reported to the nation. I want to thank him for his good work. He is a thoughtful man. He and his team have worked under very difficult circumstances. They have done a lot of work in three months, and he reported on an interim basis. The report states that Saddam Hussein's regime had a clandestine network of biological laboratories, a live strain of deadly agent botulinum, sophisticated concealment efforts, and advanced design work on prohibited longer range missiles. The report summarized the regime's efforts in this way, and I quote from the report: 'Iraq's WMD programs spanned more than two decades, involved thousands of people, billions of dollars, and was elaborately shielded by security and deception operations that continued even beyond the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom.'
That is what the report said. Specifically, Dr. Kay's team discovered what the report calls, and I quote, 'dozens of WMD-related program activities and significant amounts of equipment that Iraq concealed from the United Nations during the inspections that began in late 2002.' In addition to these extensive concealment efforts, Dr. Kay found systematic destruction of evidence of these illegal activities. This interim progress report is not final. Extensive work remains to be done on his biological, chemical and nuclear weapons programs. But these findings already make clear that Saddam Hussein actively deceived the international community, that Saddam Hussein was in clear violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 1441, and that Saddam Hussein was a danger to the world."


Here is another press release from the CIA. It is by Stu Cohen and it is entitled "Iraq's WMD Programs: Culling Hard Facts from Soft Myths". I found that to be interesting reading. You make a salient point Mr. Turd. It can be very usefull to go to the actual source of information and make your own decisions.

http://www.cia.gov/cia/public_affairs/press_release/2003/pr11282003.html


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Tastes just like chicken

Edited by JesusChrist (06/04/04 04:22 PM)

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2764140 -

WASHINGTON -- U.S. intelligence agencies need to explain why their research indicated Iraq possessed banned weapons before the American-led invasion, says the outgoing top U.S. inspector, who now believes Saddam Hussein had no such arms.

"I don't think they exist," David Kay said Sunday. "The fact that we found so far the weapons do not exist -- we've got to deal with that difference and understand why."


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2764171 -

Hey Alex, we got attacked on 9-11. We had been attacked by terrorist before, but this time it couldn't be ignored. It was on American soil and it was massive. It wounded our entire nation. I still think of those victims, and the brave firefighters and policemen almost everytime I see a Jumbo Jet flying in the sky. Those things are so massive.

We have no definitive proof that Sadaam Hussein was involved in 9-11. Some proof exists but it is not definitive. That is not the reason that we went to war. OBL was clearly the mastermind of 9-11. Events don't occur in a vacuum however, and 9-11 changed the way we looked at threats.

Sadaam Hussein was an evil man who had used weapons of Mass Distruction on his own people and the people of other nations. He had openly flaunted the UN Mandates after the first gulf war. He continued to develop his weapons programs. He made an attempt to assisinate an American President. This guy was way over the line. I am surprised it took us this long.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2764178 -

JesusChrist said:
Hey Alex, we got attacked on 9-11. We had been attacked by terrorist before, but this time it couldn't be ignored. It was on American soil and it was massive. It wounded our entire nation. I still think of those victims, and the brave firefighters and policemen almost everytime I see a Jumbo Jet flying in the sky. Those things are so massive.

We have no definitive proof that Sadaam Hussein was involved in 9-11. Some proof exists but it is not definitive. That is not the reason that we went to war. OBL was clearly the mastermind of 9-11. Events don't occur in a vacuum however, and 9-11 changed the way we looked at threats.

Sadaam Hussein was an evil man who had used weapons of Mass Distruction on his own people and the people of other nations. He had openly flaunted the UN Mandates after the first gulf war. He continued to develop his weapons programs. He made an attempt to assisinate an American President. This guy was way over the line. I am surprised it took us this long.


You know, everything else aside I don't mind the war in Iraq as long as we're consistant about being a war-mongering police nation. Meaning we should go clean up north korea, saudi arabia, israel, china, and any other nations who don't behave just how we'd like them to.

(in reality I still don't support the Iraq war b/c I don't agree with pre-emptive aggresive wars)


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2764185 -

Alex123 said:
WASHINGTON -- U.S. intelligence agencies need to explain why their research indicated Iraq possessed banned weapons before the American-led invasion, says the outgoing top U.S. inspector, who now believes Saddam Hussein had no such arms.

"I don't think they exist," David Kay said Sunday. "The fact that we found so far the weapons do not exist -- we've got to deal with that difference and understand why."


Alex, please provide a link to your source next time, so I can read the quotes in context. Also, take some time to read the Kay report that I have linked above. To this date, we have not found the massive stockpiles of WMD that we thought that we would. He didn't destroy his weapons systems though, he still had them. He actually enhanced them. If you read that report, it is hard to say that Sadaam was not a threat. He was clearly in violation of the UN Mandates. We enforced those mandates by taking him out. It is sweet justice.

And think about it, chemical weapons degrade over time. Why would you want to mix up a batch just to have it lying around becoming weaker buy the day. It would be a waste of precious resources.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2764199 -

We have no definitive proof that Sadaam Hussein was involved in 9-11.

Hang on JC, I don't think Saddam was involved for a minute. I don't even think Bush believes that.

That is not the reason that we went to war.

What was the reason JC?

Sadaam Hussein was an evil man who had used weapons of Mass Distruction on his own people

Surely Reagan and Bush's father knew all this 20 years ago when he was actually doing it? At the time when they were offering him full support and billion dollar loans?

He had openly flaunted the UN Mandates after the first gulf war.

Like the UN charter says - it's up to the UN to decide what, if any, action they wanted to take in response to flaunting UN mandates. Not George Bush. Israel has flaunted a helluva lot more UN mandates than Saddam ever did.

Would Saddam have been justified in invading Israel because they've flaunted UN mandates for 30 years?

He continued to develop his weapons programs

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one JC.

He made an attempt to assisinate an American President.

Ex-US president. Has any of this really been established in a court of law? After the "intelligence" about WMD, I'm awfully reluctant to trust a word the CIA says about Saddam.

I am surprised it took us this long.

I'm not. I think most of the other american governments had an idea that deposing Saddam would lead to something a whole lot worse. Maybe they were right.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2764204 -

As the author of this thread I'd like to let the mods know I'm fine with it going "off-topic" since it was originally just a rant with no real direction. So please don't lock it. :smile:


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: unbeliever]
    #2764210 -

You're gonna break a couple of our more highly-strung mods hearts with that post unbeliever  :smile:


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: unbeliever]
    #2764213 -

unbeliever said:
You know, everything else aside I don't mind the war in Iraq as long as we're consistant about being a war-mongering police nation. Meaning we should go clean up north korea, saudi arabia, israel, china, and any other nations who don't behave just how we'd like them to.


We can't fight everyone, you have to pick your spots. I think we send a message in taking out Sadaam. The next bastard will stand down when we threaten to personally enforce UN mandates, because he will know we mean what we say. If we win this war and do it right, we can hopefully avoid the next 10 wars just by putting the fear of God into those bastards. Not only that, a free Iraq in the center of the Muslim world will be a beacon of shining light and the begining of the transformation of the Arabic world. Once freedom starts rolling, it is hard to stop it.


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Tastes just like chicken

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: JesusChrist]
    #2764235 -

I think we send a message in taking out Sadaam

I don't think anyone is too fussed about Saddam. I do think most people will be surprised at how ineffective the Americans have been when faced with guerilla war tactics. It looks like a few guys with rocket launchers are running them out.

personally enforce UN mandates

That include the ones against Israel?

Not only that, a free Iraq in the center of the Muslim world will be a beacon of shining light and the begining of the transformation of the Arabic world.

Or it will destabilise the entire region as it appears to be doing right now and as one commentator put it "open the jaws of hell".

Once freedom starts rolling, it is hard to stop it

When I look at Paul Bremer and his handpicked gang of stooges "the Iraqi Governing Council" freedom isn't the word that springs to mind.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Xlea321]
    #2764544 -

Quote:
Alex123 said:
Or it will destabilise the entire region as it appears to be doing right now and as one commentator put it "open the jaws of hell".




Which kinda shows the mentality of those select few we're dealing with. They don't want freedom, they don't want democracy, they'd rather be governed by a vicious dictator who will fulfill their hateful acts in the name of religion/or for his own personal satisfaction. It's funny how some people here can honestly say the sympothize with that.

If they want to remain cavemen in this century then maybe we should let them, but they should be at least aloud a chance to live a free life whether the comprehend the meaning of that or not.

I just find it a shame that such a select hateful few will do whatever they can to try and deny an entire country freedom. And I say shame on all those who stand up for those cowards.

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Re: Neocon Sycophants [Re: Stein]
    #2764948 -

Stein said:
Alex123 said:
Or it will destabilise the entire region as it appears to be doing right now and as one commentator put it "open the jaws of hell".



Which kinda shows the mentality of those select few we're dealing with. They don't want freedom, they don't want democracy, they'd rather be governed by a vicious dictator who will fulfill their hateful acts in the name of religion/or for his own personal satisfaction. It's funny how some people here can honestly say the sympothize with that.

If they want to remain cavemen in this century then maybe we should let them, but they should be at least aloud a chance to live a free life whether the comprehend the meaning of that or not.

I just find it a shame that such a select hateful few will do whatever they can to try and deny an entire country freedom. And I say shame on all those who stand up for those cowards.


Um. Wow.


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Happiness is a warm gun...

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