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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: Xlea321]
    #2111836 - 11/16/03 04:51 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I don't think they agreed that at all.




Just a few of those who changed their mind.

"[W]e urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S. Constitution and laws, to take necessary actions (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq's refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction programs." -- From a letter signed by Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Barbara A. Milulski, Tom Daschle, & John Kerry among others on October 9, 1998

"This December will mark three years since United Nations inspectors last visited Iraq. There is no doubt that since that time, Saddam Hussein has reinvigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue apace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to refine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer- range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies." -- From a December 6, 2001 letter signed by Bob Graham, Joe Lieberman, Harold Ford, & Tom Lantos among others

"Saddam's goal ... is to achieve the lifting of U.N. sanctions while retaining and enhancing Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs. We cannot, we must not and we will not let him succeed." -- Madeline Albright, 1998

"Iraq made commitments after the Gulf War to completely dismantle all weapons of mass destruction, and unfortunately, Iraq has not lived up to its agreement." -- Barbara Boxer, November 8, 2002

"The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retained some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capability. Intelligence reports also indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons, but has not yet achieved nuclear capability." -- Robert Byrd, October 2002

"What is at stake is how to answer the potential threat Iraq represents with the risk of proliferation of WMD. Baghdad's regime did use such weapons in the past. Today, a number of evidences may lead to think that, over the past four years, in the absence of international inspectors, this country has continued armament programs." -- Jacques Chirac, October 16, 2002

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"I am absolutely convinced that there are weapons...I saw evidence back in 1998 when we would see the inspectors being barred from gaining entry into a warehouse for three hours with trucks rolling up and then moving those trucks out." -- Clinton's Secretary of Defense William Cohen in April of 2003

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

"Saddam Hussein's regime represents a grave threat to America and our allies, including our vital ally, Israel. For more than two decades, Saddam Hussein has sought weapons of mass destruction through every available means. We know that he has chemical and biological weapons. He has already used them against his neighbors and his own people, and is trying to build more. We know that he is doing everything he can to build nuclear weapons, and we know that each day he gets closer to achieving that goal." -- John Edwards, Oct 10, 2002

"I share the administration's goals in dealing with Iraq and its weapons of mass destruction." -- Dick Gephardt in September of 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

"We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction." -- Bob Graham, December 2002

"We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction." -- Ted Kennedy, September 27, 2002

"I will be voting to give the president of the United States the authority to use force - if necessary - to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security." -- John F. Kerry, Oct 2002

"We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandates of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them." -- Carl Levin, Sept 19, 2002

"Over the years, Iraq has worked to develop nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. During 1991 - 1994, despite Iraq's denials, U.N. inspectors discovered and dismantled a large network of nuclear facilities that Iraq was using to develop nuclear weapons. Various reports indicate that Iraq is still actively pursuing nuclear weapons capability. There is no reason to think otherwise. Beyond nuclear weapons, Iraq has actively pursued biological and chemical weapons.U.N. inspectors have said that Iraq's claims about biological weapons is neither credible nor verifiable. In 1986, Iraq used chemical weapons against Iran, and later, against its own Kurdish population. While weapons inspections have been successful in the past, there have been no inspections since the end of 1998. There can be no doubt that Iraq has continued to pursue its goal of obtaining weapons of mass destruction." -- Patty Murray, October 9, 2002

"As a member of the House Intelligence Committee, I am keenly aware that the proliferation of chemical and biological weapons is an issue of grave importance to all nations. Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -- Nancy Pelosi, December 16, 1998

"Even today, Iraq is not nearly disarmed. Based on highly credible intelligence, UNSCOM [the U.N. weapons inspectors] suspects that Iraq still has biological agents like anthrax, botulinum toxin, and clostridium perfringens in sufficient quantity to fill several dozen bombs and ballistic missile warheads, as well as the means to continue manufacturing these deadly agents. Iraq probably retains several tons of the highly toxic VX substance, as well as sarin nerve gas and mustard gas. This agent is stored in artillery shells, bombs, and ballistic missile warheads. And Iraq retains significant dual-use industrial infrastructure that can be used to rapidly reconstitute large-scale chemical weapons production." -- Ex-Un Weapons Inspector Scott Ritter in 1998

"There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years. And that may happen sooner if he can obtain access to enriched uranium from foreign sources -- something that is not that difficult in the current world. We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Saddam?s existing biological and chemical weapons capabilities pose a very real threat to America, now. Saddam has used chemical weapons before, both against Iraq?s enemies and against his own people. He is working to develop delivery systems like missiles and unmanned aerial vehicles that could bring these deadly weapons against U.S. forces and U.S. facilities in the Middle East." -- John Rockefeller, Oct 10, 2002

"Whether one agrees or disagrees with the Administration?s policy towards Iraq, I don?t think there can be any question about Saddam?s conduct. He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do. He lies and cheats; he snubs the mandate and authority of international weapons inspectors; and he games the system to keep buying time against enforcement of the just and legitimate demands of the United Nations, the Security Council, the United States and our allies. Those are simply the facts." -- Henry Waxman, Oct 10, 2002



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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineLearyfanS
It's the psychedelic movement!
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2111857 - 11/16/03 04:57 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

I just don't understand with so many people on both sides at one time all agreed that Saddam was major threat




Video of Powell and Rice saying Saddam was not a threat even to his neighbors(2001)






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Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish



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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/26/01
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2113989 - 11/17/03 02:18 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Just a few of those who changed their mind.

Not so much a case of changing their mind as being proved utterly and resoundingly wrong.

Read people like Scott Ritter for an insight into what inspectors on the ground were saying - that there were no WMD's or WMD programs.


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InvisibleXochitl
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: Xlea321]
    #2114152 - 11/17/03 03:07 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46460-2003Nov15.html

Quote:

CIA Finds No Evidence Hussein Sought to Arm Terrorists

By Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, November 16, 2003; Page A20

The CIA's search for weapons of mass destruction in Iraq has found no evidence that former president Saddam Hussein tried to transfer chemical or biological technology or weapons to terrorists, according to a military and intelligence expert...




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As we know, there are known knowns. There are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns. That is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns, the ones we don't know we don't know.

-Donald Rumsfeld 2/2/02 Pentagon


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: Xlea321]
    #2115660 - 11/17/03 11:16 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

As shown in pinksharkmark's post about Scott Ritter, he has NO credibility. Unlike Bush and Co., who everyone seems to want to label a liar, there is actually evidence to corroborate his sudden change of heart.

I wonder if the Dem's taught him that?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (11/17/03 11:20 AM)


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2115871 - 11/17/03 12:29 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

As shown in pinksharkmark's post about Scott Ritter, he has NO credibility. Unlike Bush and Co

Except Ritter was right and Bush and Blair were wrong.

I don't know about you but being right makes you pretty credible in my eyes.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: Xlea321]
    #2116381 - 11/17/03 02:18 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

When it's something you don't want to believe you question the source, when it's something you want to believe you accept the source.



Talking to yourself again?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Registered: 10/29/03
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: Xlea321]
    #2116467 - 11/17/03 02:40 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

"Iraq is not the only nation in the world to possess weapons of mass destruction, but it is the only nation with a leader who has used them against his own people." -- Tom Daschle in 1998

Propaganda like this is repeated over and over again, and it's seriously beginning to bug me. What an extremely naive and ignorant person you would have to be before this would mean anything to you.

Yes. Iraq, with Saddam at the helm, launched several gas attacks at Kurd villages in 1988. Quick history lesson: The Kurds have been fighting for their independence for a century. Kurdish guerilla have been active all that time, launching attacks on both Turkey and Iraq. By American standards, they are terrorists. The Iraqi attacks on Kurd villages were their "war on terrorism". And as with the US war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq, there was "collateral damage" (albeit harsher.. but hey, who's doing a bodycount anyway).

Now here's my main beef with this piece of trite:

- Kurds are not "his own people", not by a long shot.
- If they were, how would that change anything? Still an atrocity, no?
- Turkey, a US NATO ally, have routinely massacered Kurd villages and tortured their political leaders. According to the US, this is legitimate anti-terrorist measures. Double standards?

To fall for bullshit propaganda like this, you would have to be seriously lacking in knowledge about the matters at hand.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Anonymous

Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: muhurgle]
    #2116475 - 11/17/03 02:41 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

now we've got a guy defending the gassing of thousands of kurdish civilians... great.  :thumbup:


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Invisiblemuhurgle
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: ]
    #2116507 - 11/17/03 02:46 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

What? Please show me the logical steps that made you come to this conclusion. This should be interesting.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Anonymous

Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: muhurgle]
    #2116525 - 11/17/03 02:50 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quick history lesson: The Kurds have been fighting for their independence for a century. Kurdish guerilla have been active all that time, launching attacks on both Turkey and Iraq. By American standards, they are terrorists. The Iraqi attacks on Kurd villages were their "war on terrorism". And as with the US war on terrorism in Afghanistan and Iraq, there was "collateral damage" (albeit harsher.. but hey, who's doing a bodycount anyway).

please bring me some sort of evidence showing how extensive the kurdish terrorist campaign was. show me to what extent kurdish seperatists were attacking civilian targets.

even if there were kurdish terrorist groups, that wouldn't make it right. would it be right for israel to go gas thousands and thousands of palestinians? hell no... let's not forget either that gassing was just one of many policies hussein used for "taking care of" the kurds. how would you feel if israel dropped sarin on palestinian villages? double standards?

- Kurds are not "his own people", not by a long shot.

they lived inside his borders. they were under his rule. they had a little autonomy, but not sovereignity. they were indeed citizens of iraq. even if they weren't, would that make things any better?

- If they were, how would that change anything? Still an atrocity, no?

um... yes. gassing villages and killing thousands of civilians is an atrocity.

- Turkey, a US NATO ally, have routinely massacered Kurd villages and tortured their political leaders. According to the US, this is legitimate anti-terrorist measures.

which is wrong, and please show me where the US has indicated that it supports these sorts of measures as parts of a legitimate anti-terrorism campaign.

To fall for bullshit propaganda like this, you would have to be seriously lacking in knowledge about the matters at hand.

i disagree. gassing thousands of civilians (especially as part of a larger campaign of quasi-genocidal oppression) is very, very wrong.

i hope you don't seriously believe any of the shit you just wrote.


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Anonymous

Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: ]
    #2116542 - 11/17/03 02:53 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

now for the standard fallback... if i may predict...

i'm wagering it'll be something along the lines of...

"the US was supporting him when he did it" or "the US has done things like that too before"...

let's see...


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: ]
    #2116615 - 11/17/03 03:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

even if there were kurdish terrorist groups, that wouldn't make it right. would it be right for israel to go gas thousands and thousands of palestinians? hell no... let's not forget either that gassing was just one of many policies hussein used for "taking care of" the kurds. how would you feel if israel dropped sarin on palestinian villages? double standards?

Please don't warp what I'm saying. I didn't defend it. I said it was an atrocity. Since I compared it to the US war on terrorism (which also have many civillian lives on it's conscience) you automatically think that I'm defending it?

they lived inside his borders. they were under his rule. they had a little autonomy, but not sovereignity. they were indeed citizens of iraq. even if they weren't, would that make things any better?

They're still not his own people, just like the palestinians aren't Sharons own people although the relationship between them is about the same. Anyway, as I explained in the next sentence (and as you repeated as a statement of your own) the point is moot. It's just as bad if they were "his own people" or not, so why make a major political point out of it?

- Turkey, a US NATO ally, have routinely massacered Kurd villages and tortured their political leaders. According to the US, this is legitimate anti-terrorist measures.

which is wrong.


Yes, but you won't see the US using this as an argument to invade Turkey anytime soon. They won't even condemn their actions, since Turkey is an important ally. The original quote and it's use in promoting a war against Iraq is therefore just propaganda for the masses. The people who brings this up again and again aren't genuinly concerned about the well beings of the Kurds.

i disagree. gassing thousands of civilians (especially as part of a larger campaign of quasi-genocidal oppression) is very, very wrong.

We both agree that genocide is wrong. My only beef was with the original quote and similarily simplistic propaganda which is extremely hypocritical, to say the least.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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Anonymous

Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: muhurgle]
    #2116633 - 11/17/03 03:13 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

so it seems i misunderstood you... it sure sounded to me like you were defending hussein's gassing.

the quote you say you've got a problem with is correct as far as i know. has any other government used WMD's against it's own citizens? i can't think of any.


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Invisiblemuhurgle
Turtles all theway down

Registered: 10/29/03
Posts: 299
Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: ]
    #2116686 - 11/17/03 03:26 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

the quote you say you've got a problem with is correct as far as i know. has any other government used WMD's against it's own citizens? i can't think of any

I don't dispute the facts, I just say that I dislike the hypocrisy behind the reasoning of US officials and others which propagate this quote. If they really were concerned with the well being of Kurds, they would at the very least condemn Turkish actions in the same area.

Since they provably lack this concern, the quote is nothing more than propaganda.

Also, it seems that you've fallen victim to the rethoric that using WMD's are inheritly more evil than killing civillians en masse any other way.


--------------------
"To make this mundane world sublime
Take half a gram of phanerothyme."

Aldous Huxley


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: ]
    #2116870 - 11/17/03 04:21 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

it sure sounded to me like you were defending hussein's gassing

Nah, only person I've ever heard defending hussein's gassing is Bush when he tried to blame it on the Iranians.

More than most, the people of Halabja would love to see the end of Saddam Hussein but many are sceptical about American motives, pointing out that Washington was backing him at the time and tried to blame nearby Iran for the chemical attack on Halabja.

http://www.lastsuperpower.net/Members/kesa/News_Item.2003-03-20.4953


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Invisiblethescientist
Registered: 03/10/02
Posts: 805
Loc: Dade County
Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2118561 - 11/18/03 12:30 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

come on man

there is more of a bin ladin/ bush family relationship.

stop seeing what you want to see and view whats left of our planet for what it is.

if the US doesnt acquire (more) middle east oil there will be a massive energy shortage in the US. ie blackouts and economic depression


the survival of disgusting luxury is a stake if we do not get the crude.

i do not support this war or excess

instead of trying to support bush or saddam, acknowledge that they are both peices of shit.

what is happening in iraq is a crime against humanity. this is the origins of human civilization (tigris euphrates river valleys)(babylon) that the US has destroyed, along w/ thousands of innocent lives on both sides.

if you want to support bush, admit you want the oil so we can see dwindling "economic growth" for another 10 yrs.

remember cambodia, germany, african and SA counries that we have turned to shit. the men that take over when we leave are far more dangerous.

expect genocide
expect terrorism


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Offlineshakta
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Registered: 06/03/03
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Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: pattern]
    #2124288 - 11/20/03 03:29 AM (18 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

pattern said:
I think it's funny that the war apologists were trying to debunk the "myth" that the Bush administration ever made the "osama-saddam" connection in the first place.  I wonder if those debunkers are going to speak out against this news item?  :rolleyes:   




Think it is funny all you want. It is the truth. Why would someone speak out against this? The administration has never said one way or the other if there was definately a connection between the two. I guess the whole Baathist/Jihadi fruitcake being enemies argument is finally overwith. They are working together in Iraq now after all.


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: No Saddam/Bin Laden connection eh? Top Secret memo [Re: shakta]
    #2124796 - 11/20/03 12:08 PM (18 years, 2 months ago)

It is the truth.

Only in your mind.

The administration has never said one way or the other if there was definately a connection between the two.

"Definate connections" are not what propaganda is about. The moment you start making "definate connections" people can call you on your bullshit. Propaganda is about making subtle connections and establishing frameworks of belief. If you're vulnerable to it - like you - then you won't protest when an illegal war of aggression is launched. The propaganda has prepared you for it.

They are working together in Iraq now after all.

Who told you this? The little mouse in your pocket? Even the american military don't know who'se behind the insurgency.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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