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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,773
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 2 years, 5 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1737454 - 07/22/03 07:08 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Have a good day then!


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Always Smi2le


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1737485 - 07/22/03 07:35 AM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
there's also proof that he (and his wicked sons, especially uday) murdered thousands of people. you people won't even stand up to those facts because they don't jive with the way you'd like to percieve things.


Did anyone say that didn't happen?

Quote:

instead, you'll say ridiculous things that sound something like *... all those shii'as and kurds everybody's saying hussein massacred... never happened.


Did anyone say that didn't happen?

Quote:

all those times hussein intimidated, arrested, or deported weapons inspectors... they didn't really matter.


Did anyone say that didn't really matter?

Quote:

all you people that disagree watch too much fox news and are brainwashed and don't know what's going on. i'm special and have the inside scoop and you're all out of the loop. fools!* 


Ok, I'll agree with you there.  :wink:


I'll try and clear something up.  Liberals don't attack Bush because we like Saddam Hussein.  We attack Bush because we have higher expectations of our own leaders than we do of Saddam Hussein.  Yes, Saddam is evil and is responsible for thousands of deaths.  That's bad.  But the sanctions are also responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths.  That's also bad.  So why do liberals attack Bush more than Saddam?  Because we expect better from our own leaders.  I may not speak for every liberal here, but I think Saddam was an evil guy.  But so is Bush, and that pisses me off, and that's why I argue wtih the people that support him.  Everyone hates Saddam, so there's nothing to argue about there.  However, if Bush lies about Saddam, that's wrong too, and we'll attack Bush for lying (which makes it appear like we're defending Saddam).  Does that make sense?  It's late for me too, I'm going to bed.   


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Anonymous

Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: GazzBut]
    #1738069 - 07/22/03 01:43 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

alright. back after a long morning of cleaning out trashcans and raking sand around...

what i'm sayin' here is that hussein really was a nasty guy. i think we can all agree (can we?) that things are going to be alot better with him out of the picture...


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1738079 - 07/22/03 01:48 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Agreed, but it should've been the iraqis that did it.  Now you'll have westernisation and they'll loose alot of thier culture, not that its necsessarily a bad thing, just it will be...."westernised". :tongue:


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"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineDoctorJ
"Nazi, Satanist Anti-Christ"
Male

Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,843
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738099 - 07/22/03 01:57 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

I'm pretty sure Sadam is still alive kickin it on a beach with a heavy US special forces guard.

homeboy did his job and is now collecting his pay



--------------------
'You can go to a hospital
Get yourself cleaned out.'


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1738114 - 07/22/03 02:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Heh, i never thought of that

/adjusts tinfoil hat...im getting something!!!

They supported him to begin with but it was agreed he'd turn "evil", but it was all a conspiracy for america to establish a presence in the middle east from where they can take the rest of it over then strike into india, china, and everywhere else. :smirk:


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1738159 - 07/22/03 02:16 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what i'm sayin' here is that hussein really was a nasty guy. i think we can all agree (can we?) that things are going to be alot better with him out of the picture...


Perhaps, but Bush definitely shouldn't have lied about the reasons for going to war. And I agree with Azmodeus that we shouldn't be forcing our culture down their throats. The UN wanted to get involved in the rebuilding of Iraq and the Iraqi Government, but rather than accept their money and support, we chose to pay for the reconstruction ourselves so that we could have complete control over the new Government. Sure, some might argue "we're the ones that fought Iraq, so we should get to control their Government", but we fought them for reasons that we lied about, and we didn't care for UN involvement probably so that we could control their Government. It doesn't seem right IMHO.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
 User Gallery


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,246
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Cornholio]
    #1738174 - 07/22/03 02:22 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Actually.... keeping the UN out for the reasons you list makes more sense than having gone in in the first place.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Cornholio]
    #1738192 - 07/22/03 02:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps, but Bush definitely shouldn't have lied about the reasons for going to war.

i agree with that as well.

And I agree with Azmodeus that we shouldn't be forcing our culture down their throats.

but i think that's a tired clich?. just how would we force our culture down their throats? i don't see how such a thing could be done even if someone wanted to... no one is going to be forced to eat fast food, drink cola, wear blue jeans, and listen to american pop music... i live in america, and i don't do any of those things (except wear jeans), and no one's forcing anything down my throat.

if foreigners choose to embrace american culture (more accurately, the WORST that american culture has to offer), that's their choice... no one's forcing anyone to do anything... what do you propose, a ban on fast food in iraq?

The UN wanted to get involved in the rebuilding of Iraq and the Iraqi Government, but rather than accept their money and support, we chose to pay for the reconstruction ourselves so that we could have complete control over the new Government. Sure, some might argue "we're the ones that fought Iraq, so we should get to control their Government", but we fought them for reasons that we lied about, and we didn't care for UN involvement probably so that we could control their Government. It doesn't seem right IMHO.

what official statements has the US made as to its decision to exclude the UN from the reconstruction effort?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1738230 - 07/22/03 02:47 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
what official statements has the US made as to its decision to exclude the UN from the reconstruction effort?


Germany Presses Case for Central UN Role in Postwar Iraq
"Germany's chancellor is meeting with the leaders of France and Russia to discuss their stance on postwar Iraq. But U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell says the U.N. Security Council's role could be limited.

German Chancellor Gerhard Schr?der has made up his mind. Either the United Nations will be a guiding force in the reconstruction of Iraq or Germany will not participate."

Edit: The article goes on to point out that many other countries feel the same way.

UN, Civilians Should Manage Iraq Reconstruction


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Edited by Cornholio (07/22/03 02:49 PM)


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InvisibleEdame
gone

Registered: 01/14/03
Posts: 1,270
Loc: outta here
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1738236 - 07/22/03 02:49 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

The UN wanted to get involved in the rebuilding of Iraq and the Iraqi Government, but rather than accept their money and support, we chose to pay for the reconstruction ourselves so that we could have complete control over the new Government. Sure, some might argue "we're the ones that fought Iraq, so we should get to control their Government", but we fought them for reasons that we lied about, and we didn't care for UN involvement probably so that we could control their Government. It doesn't seem right IMHO.

what official statements has the US made as to its decision to exclude the UN from the reconstruction effort?

Quotes from this article (emphasis mine):
Quote:


Calls also mounted in the European Union on Monday for a resolution to give the U.N. broader powers in Iraq to provide legitimacy for political reconstruction and peacekeeping.
French Foreign Minister Dominique de Villepin, whose country led opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq, said at an EU foreign ministers' meeting that a new resolution should give the U.N. overall responsibility in the country.
Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini said several other ministers suggested that closer European involvement in Iraq may require a new resolution, but there were no fixed positions.
U.S. President George W. Bush however said on Monday he would welcome more international support for helping increase security in Iraq, but he doubted a new U.N. resolution was necessary as a mandate for the support.




That to me seems to indicate that Bush (and Blair) want Europe's help (and money), but don't want to give up control of any of their new power (and money) to anyone else.

As for Hussein being gone, that hasn't exactly been proven yet, he may still be alive, and anything could still happen. I do think that it's a 'good' thing that he's not in power any more, but I still vehemently disagree with the methods (lies, deception, murder/war) used to remove him.


--------------------
The above is an extract from my fictional novel, "The random postings of Edame".
:tongue:

In the beginning was the word. And man could not handle the word, and the hearing of the word, and he asked God to take away his ears so that he might live in peace without having to hear words which might upset his equinamity or corrupt the unblemished purity of his conscience.

And God, hearing this desperate plea from His creation, wrinkled His mighty brow for a moment and then leaned down toward man, beckoning that he should come close so as to hear all that was about to be revealed to him.

"Fuck you," He whispered, and frowned upon the pathetic supplicant before retreating to His heavens.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Edame]
    #1738293 - 07/22/03 03:04 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Mush master has a point however about american culture not being shoved down thier throats!
I lived in the emirates...a fairly "westernised" country in the middle east, and although they had fast food, new cars, cell phones etc...it was NOTHING like here. It was a pseudo arab technological culture that was quickly selling out thier traditions, and culture for new stuff, money, and other shallow soul destroying activities...ie videogames, and many others.

That is why im not so sure this is the best thing for iraq. While thier lives are easier, and thier bellies full, they will soon become numb like so many people in canada and america....they will loose some of thier spirit....of life....


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738352 - 07/22/03 03:30 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Azmodeus said:
Mush master has a point however about american culture not being shoved down thier throats!


The biggest problem I see with westernizing Iraqi culture is that very few people there have the money or know-how to set up their own businesses, and the few that do could never compete with Western multi-national corporations. Businesses like McDonalds will roll in, hire people for minimum wage (Iraqi minimimum wage), and all the profits go back to the West. I can see why we would want that to happen though.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Cornholio]
    #1738429 - 07/22/03 04:02 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Not so! The kfc, mc donalds, and burger kings were completely empty almost everytime i walked by! But just out side the little swarma stands had great business....

You have malls with no people, and crowded bizarres....thats starting to change now though...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Invisiblewingnutx

Registered: 09/25/00
Posts: 2,283
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Azmodeus]
    #1738589 - 07/22/03 04:56 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the little swarma stands had great business....





That was my experience as well. Good food, btw.


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: wingnutx]
    #1738631 - 07/22/03 05:11 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Fucking amazing! I'd pay $5 bucks for one of those.....a good one....here! They were awesome! and everyone made them slightly different, so..........

im shutting up now, cus im making myself hungry...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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InvisibleXlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Cornholio]
    #1738741 - 07/22/03 05:55 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

Businesses like McDonalds will roll in

Apparantly macdonalds and other american firms are having a hard time of it abroad. America is now so hated throughout the world that their business is struggling.


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Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineAzmodeus
Seeker

Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 3,392
Loc: Lotus Land!! B.C.
Last seen: 17 years, 4 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Xlea321]
    #1738815 - 07/22/03 06:18 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

'American' culture may just end ub being another fatality in globalisation...


--------------------
"Know your Body - Know your Mind - Know your Substance - Know your Source.

Lest we forget. "


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Anonymous

Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: Edame]
    #1739101 - 07/22/03 07:57 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

what i'm looking for is a reason. has anyone in the bush administration given any reasons for excluding the UN?


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 18 years, 6 months
Re: Saddam Hussein [Re: ]
    #1739255 - 07/22/03 08:45 PM (18 years, 10 months ago)

You're not the only one looking a reason!  :rolleyes: 


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