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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Enlil]
    #25608084 -

Ummmm....didnt know that was the argument. Like a registration fee for things like cars and boats?

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25608088 -

That's what he's proposing.  Where is the legal precedent for that? There is no fundamental right to own a car or boat.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Enlil]
    #25608095 -

Dont gun owners have to renew a licence ever two years or something?

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #25608102 -

I don't.  There are states that have firearm licenses that may be 15 bucks every couple of years.  That's not the same as a $300/ year per gun tax.

I'm not against regulation,  and having nominal fees to cover the cost of recordkeeping is reasonable.  That's not what this thread is about. The government should not have the power to create significant burdens on the exercise of fundamental rights.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Enlil]
    #25608204 -

Enlil said:
I'm not against regulation,  and having nominal fees to cover the cost of recordkeeping is reasonable.  That's not what this thread is about. The government should not have the power to create significant burdens on the exercise of fundamental rights.


I respect this.

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #25608210 -

@Enlil- I know this isnt exactly what you are looking for but its in the ball park.

Alcohol is a fundamental right, granted by the 21st amendment, but it is taxed
and a recent proposal to cut spirit ecxise taxes may directly correlate to
higher alcohol related accidents and fatalities. This is not an exercise tax
as you propose koods, but it just goes to show how increasing the tax of a fundamental right
granted by the constitution may lower risks associated with the right itself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/3/16600770/alcohol-tax-increase


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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: natedawgnow]
    #25608234 -

natedawgnow said:
@Enlil- I know this isnt exactly what you are looking for but its in the ball park.

Alcohol is a fundamental right, granted by the 21st amendment, but it is taxed
and a recent proposal to cut spirit ecxise taxes may directly correlate to
higher alcohol related accidents and fatalities. This is not an exercise tax
as you propose koods, but it just goes to show how increasing the tax of a fundamental right
granted by the constitution may lower risks associated with the right itself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/3/16600770/alcohol-tax-increase


You pay tax when you buy alcohol, just like we already do with guns. That's not the same as an annual tax that's been proposed here.

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Kwyjibo]
    #25608236 -

Yes which is why I said its not the same in my post. The point is that you can raise the tax
or even add a new tax since taxing your rights isnt prohibited anywhere in the
constitution.


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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: chibiabos]
    #25608263 -

koods said:
qman said:
This is silly,  pay for your own fears or buy your own gun.


No. It’s not silly. We have to pay to insure our cars. Gun owners should be responsible for the costs incurred by their own weapons, either through a fee or insurance.


My problem with this is that you are saying that ALL gun-owners should be held financially responsible for the actions of a few people.  It is not the average gun-owners' fault that some nut-jobs decide to shoot up a place.  If you want to punish (yes, this is essentially what you are  doing) someone, punish the actual nut-jobs/criminal shooters.

Edited by TinyBee (11/12/18 01:33 AM)

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: natedawgnow]
    #25608560 -

natedawgnow said:
@Enlil- I know this isnt exactly what you are looking for but its in the ball park.

Alcohol is a fundamental right, granted by the 21st amendment, but it is taxed
and a recent proposal to cut spirit ecxise taxes may directly correlate to
higher alcohol related accidents and fatalities. This is not an exercise tax
as you propose koods, but it just goes to show how increasing the tax of a fundamental right
granted by the constitution may lower risks associated with the right itself.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2017/11/3/16600770/alcohol-tax-increase


Alcohol isn't a fundamental right.  States can outright ban alcohol at any time without violating the constitution.  In fact,  there are dozens of counties and over 500 municipalities in the U.S. where the sale of alcohol is forbidden.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: TinyBee]
    #25608566 -

TinyBee said:
koods said:
qman said:
This is silly,  pay for your own fears or buy your own gun.


No. It’s not silly. We have to pay to insure our cars. Gun owners should be responsible for the costs incurred by their own weapons, either through a fee or insurance.


My problem with this is that you are saying that ALL gun-owners should be held financially responsible for the actions of a few people.  It is not the average gun-owners' fault that some nut-jobs decide to shoot up a place.  If you want to punish (yes, this is essentially what you are  doing) someone, punish the actual nut-jobs/criminal shooters.


Isn't holding everyone responsible for the actions of a few the business model of the entire insurance industry?

Throwing a criminal (or even accidental) shooter in jail isn't much consolation for shooting victims saddled with astronomical medical costs.

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: koods] * 1
    #25608569 -

koods said:
No. It’s not silly. We have to pay to insure our cars. Gun owners should be responsible for the costs incurred by their own weapons, either through a fee or insurance.


So should car owners be responsible for the insurance costs of people who got ran over by cars, even if they weren't involved?

You really dont see how ridiculously flawed this logic is?


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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: TinyBee]
    #25608574 -

TinyBee said:
koods said:
qman said:
This is silly,  pay for your own fears or buy your own gun.


No. It’s not silly. We have to pay to insure our cars. Gun owners should be responsible for the costs incurred by their own weapons, either through a fee or insurance.


My problem with this is that you are saying that ALL gun-owners should be held financially responsible for the actions of a few people.  It is not the average gun-owners' fault that some nut-jobs decide to shoot up a place.  If you want to punish (yes, this is essentially what you are  doing) someone, punish the actual nut-jobs/criminal shooters.


It’s not punishment. There is one universal common denominator when it comes to the costs incurred by gun crime: the gun. Every gun crime is committed with one. This is expensive and gun owners are not being responsible. Victims shouldn’t have to pay the cost. Gun owners should.

You think everyone should pay for this stupid gun hobby. Maybe if gun owners aren’t willing to pay upfront for some of these cost, we should just require they prove they have financial resources to cover any damage they cause. Let’s say a million dollars. If you can’t afford this then you aren’t able to be responsible for your gun.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #25608579 -

Near Dylan said:
koods said:
No. It’s not silly. We have to pay to insure our cars. Gun owners should be responsible for the costs incurred by their own weapons, either through a fee or insurance.


So should car owners be responsible for the insurance costs of people who got ran over by cars, even if they weren't involved?

You really dont see how ridiculously flawed this logic is?


Are you serious? Do you even have a basic understanding of what insurance is. This is by far the stupidest post I’ve seen in a very long time. What do you think your premiums pay for? They pay for the costs of claims made by everyone, including yourself.

Not only does your car insurance pay for the claims of everyone else who is insured, you also pay money to cover people WHO ARENT INSURED AND PAY NOTHING. It’s called “the uninsured motorist fee”


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

Edited by koods (11/12/18 08:39 AM)

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Near Dylan] * 1
    #25608581 -

Near Dylan said:
So should car owners be responsible for the insurance costs of people who got ran over by cars, even if they weren't involved?



That's exactly how insurance works.


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Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: MycoMinded] * 1
    #25608584 -

No, the business model of an insurance company is:

1. Calculate the probability of a claim
2. Calculate the cost of a claim
3. Charge a premium higher than cost x probability.

It's similar to the gaming industry, really.  An insurance company doesn't raise its premiums because another policyholder makes a claim.

Here, Koods is saying that the government should recoup the societal costs of shootings only from those who have guns.  Right now, that cost is covered by all taxpayers.  Shifting that burden to those who exercise their fundamental right to own a firearm is placing a burden on the exercise of that right.

What if the government said:  "Elections are getting expensive, because everyone can post anything they want on the internet.  That means that politicians need to pay more to win elections.  As a result, we are putting a $5 tax on each word you post about a political topic."  Would that reduce the amount of people speaking about politics?  Would you be okay with that tax?

Speech is a fundamental right in the U.S.  Owning a firearm is as well.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: koods] * 1
    #25608592 -

Do you not see a difference between the logic behind insurance premiums, and the logic behind having gun owners pay for security of non-gun owners? That is not an insurance premium lol. We bought guns for our security, man. Im not now gonna pay out of pocket for yours because you didn't, that's your prerogative.

You want people with guns, to hire other people with guns, to protect people without guns from bad people with guns, because people with guns are the reason that people without guns get killed by guns, so we need more people with guns to protect from the people  with guns, because guns are bad. You're really just bending over backwards to satisfy your saltiness towards gun owners lol. Implying any and all gun violence falls in the hands of every legal gun owner :lol: You are really reaching for shit today huh


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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: Enlil]
    #25608596 -

Free speech isn't always free ($) though. You have to reimburse the National Park Service for holding a rally, that includes damages, security, personnel, etc..

So for something as consistently destructive as guns, why are there not costs associated? If capitalism is our choice of financial system, and gun toting people they often love to toss this idea around, then we should present them with the cost of their hobby and make them pay for it.


--------------------
Enjoy the process of your search without succumbing to the pressure of the result.

A Dorito is pizza, change my mind.

I’m sorry it had to be me.

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: christopera]
    #25608599 -

christopera said:
Near Dylan said:
So should car owners be responsible for the insurance costs of people who got ran over by cars, even if they weren't involved?



That's exactly how insurance works.


Near Dylan is a smart guy. I can’t believe he’s gone 17 years on this planet and has no clue how insurance and cost sharing operate.


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NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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Re: Gun owners should pay a security fee to help pay for police protection [Re: christopera]
    #25608607 -

Because you cannot throw a blanket over an entire category that encompasses tens of millions of people. You don't see how crazy it is for someone take a gun and shoot someone he hates, and then to go and put your hand out to every single person in the country who owns a weapon, because that guy was killed with a weapon? Really? Should everyone with an Archery hobby have to pay for people who get injured by bow an arrows? Should everyone who owns a samurai sword have to pay the government everytime someone gets cut with a sword? Should a butcher have to pay everyone that gets attacked by a butcher knife? The logic of "it's all on them" just by the association of the object, is beyond ridiculous. Acting like the blood of everyone in that synagogue shooting is on the hands of everyone who owns a weapon for self-defense.


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