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Shop: Sporeworks.EU Spores for European Microscopy   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Evolving]
    #2982303 -

hehehe, Last show I went to I picked up a Russian SKS with 30 round clip, A Lorkin 22 pistol, a CHEEP 380 pistol and a Mouser 8mm rifle and did not have to show my ID once.

All you have to do is buy from the "Individuals" who are selling there "Private Collections". Oh and not live in California, Washington D.C., or New York.

You may also note that MOST states have no restrictions on black powder weapons like those used in the 1700's to 1800's. Although some may laugh at you for using an old weapon like that, My 1861 Navel revolver will still put a 44 slug through a 3" phone book at 50 feet.


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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Cyber]
    #2982337 -

The fact is, that there is no 'gun show loophole.' Sellers and buyers are still subject to the same laws that govern their actions away from gun shows. How this can be seen as a loophole is beyond logic.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Cyber]
    #2982444 -

Quote:
You may also note that MOST states have no restrictions on black powder weapons like those used in the 1700's to 1800's. Although some may laugh at you for using an old weapon like that, My 1861 Navel revolver will still put a 44 slug through a 3" phone book at 50 feet.



LOL, reminds me of lock stock and two smoking barrels.


oh and to evolving, it was a private dealer. i consider that a loophole to avoid having to do a background check and register.


--------------------
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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: ]
    #2983337 -

"Few are trying to ban guns, just make them regulated. I don't see how you're points argue against regulation of the sell of guns such as closing the gun-show loop hole, registration, waiting day period/background check. "

Is no such thing.  To sell a gun at a gun show you must be a licensed dealer, and as such must run a background check.  PA's got an instant background check, works great.

Now, private party selling to private party.. does not require a background check.  However, there's a lot of stipulations that go into that.  Some people do just take a gun with them to a gun show, stick a flag in the barrel and walk around trying to sell that.  That's not legal in all states anymore if i remember things correctly.

"maybe there could be licences for a class of guns like 'handguns' or 'rifles/shotguns' the way they do for motorcycles and cars (is there a separate licence for trucks and buses?). this is just an idea i'm shooting around"

If there was such a thing, it would destroy the spirit of the second amendment.
The second amendment was written so that ANYBODY -- you, me, jim-bob, bruce -- we all can be armed.  Licensing, first off, costs money.  Secondly it gives the government the authority to tell you, a law-abiding citizen with a clean record, that no, you cannot own a firearm.
With the wrong people in power, such a system could very quickly begin denying ALL people licenses.  Or perhaps they would make the cost prohibitive to all except the wealthy -- let's say, $3,000 yearly for the license to own guns.

That's anti-American.  In fact, that would harken back to the idea of a priviledged upper class.  You know, the very thing that Americans seperated themselves from when they cut ties with Europe.

You have a right to defend yourself from harm, a right guarenteed by the second amendment.  That right exists to ALL men, regardless of their personal wealth.  A poor man might not have as much material goods to defend as a rich man, but simply having less does not disqualify you from a natural right. 

The Bill of Rights contains many natural rights, and what is meant by that is a right that everybody, regardless of position, power, race, religion, location, vocation or personality, is inherently free to do certain things, and to restrict those freedoms is to become tyrannical, it to impose restrictions on people that are contrary to being free.  You're not free if you're not able to speak your mind, you're not free if you're required to follow a certain religion, you're not free if you're required to serve as witness against yourself, you're not free if you're required to submit to random searches and seizures, and you're not free if you're denied the ability to defend yourself against aggressors.

"You may also note that MOST states have no restrictions on black powder weapons like those used in the 1700's to 1800's. Although some may laugh at you for using an old weapon like that, My 1861 Navel revolver will still put a 44 slug through a 3" phone book at 50 feet. "

Nope..  they're considered antiquated technology.



Oh, final word about the "gun show loophole" that doesn't exist.

As I've said, there are already laws on the books that deal with it.  To set up a table and sell guns at a gun show you've got to be a licensed dealer.  The "loophole" only applies to private party to private party sales.  More and more often gun shows aren't allowing private party sales at the gun show, nor the advertising of guns by private parties.

Essentially to close the "loophole" you would have to forbid private party sales of guns.  That means you couldn't sell them in a newspaper, or, if you did you would have to go through a licensed firearms dealer to run a background check, file paperwork, charge you 50 to 100 dollars extra..

"seriously though... i have found that of all the different controversies in the political sphere, the anti-gun argument is the one most rooted in ignorance of the actual facts, verifiable statistics, and the real situation at hand. people disagree about guns not because they have different values, as they do with say, abortion or welfare, (we all want there to be less violent crime), but because some of us do not have all the information. "

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:


Most of the people yelling for gun control not only know little to nothing about guns themselves, but many are also unwilling to learn anything about them.  Many elected officials routinely make false statements in speeches about gun control, either through ignorance and an unwillingless to research facts or through intentional misinformation to a public unwilling to do fact-checking of their own because they support the goals of the speaker.

It's like Stevie Wonder telling you you've got food in your teeth.
They don't have any clue what they're talking about.

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2983571 -

TaoTeChing said:
right, and I was saying that one should pass a test in order to just own guns even if its just to use in their own house.  just my opinion.

maybe there could be licences for a class of guns like 'handguns' or 'rifles/shotguns' the way they do for motorcycles and cars (is there a separate licence for trucks and buses?). this is just an idea i'm shooting around :wink:.


Shamelessly stolen from Michael Badnarik's webpage:

"Let me reiterate an axiom of my philosophy. Rights and privileges are polar opposites. A right is something that I can do without asking. A privilege is something that a higher authority allows me to do. It is utter nonsense for us to accept government permits in order to exercise an inalienable right. "


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Mushmonkey]
    #2984216 -

Quote:
Oh, final word about the "gun show loophole" that doesn't exist.

As I've said, there are already laws on the books that deal with it. To set up a table and sell guns at a gun show you've got to be a licensed dealer. The "loophole" only applies to private party to private party sales.


:wtf:?? what the hell are you talking about, you say there's no loophole and then you go on to describe the loophole...are you really that retarded?  I was referring to private party sales, did you even read the whole thread?

Quote:
More and more often gun shows aren't allowing private party sales at the gun show


good.

Quote:
you would have to forbid private party sales of guns. That means you couldn't sell them in a newspaper, or, if you did you would have to go through a licensed firearms dealer to run a background check, file paperwork, charge you 50 to 100 dollars extra..


oh no! extra paperwork?! loss of some money by using a middleman?! just in order to try to prevent a criminal or mentally diseased person from buying a gun?! oh the horror!! :shocked:

Quote:
you have a right to defend yourself from harm, a right guarenteed by the second amendment.


Perhaps you should read it again, it talks about "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,", not about killing intruders by yourself.  its speaking of the entire state's freedom, about being free from military takeover.  that's what its referring to.


--------------------
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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: z@z.com]
    #2984239 -

Quote:
"Let me reiterate an axiom of my philosophy. Rights and privileges are polar opposites. A right is something that I can do without asking. A privilege is something that a higher authority allows me to do. It is utter nonsense for us to accept government permits in order to exercise an inalienable right. "



funny you should say bring badnarik up, i was going to mention him as an example of how emotional the pro-guns side gets as well (MM was saying the gun control side is based solely on emotions), just different emotions: paranoia and fear (though i guess fear is present on both sides).

anyway, responding to his quote look at the first two amendments:

Quote:
Article [I.]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Article [II.]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


when congress is not supposed to make any law that would abridge a right, it seems that the writers were very clear about it. but even the freedom of speech has to be abridged in cases like shouting fire in a crowded theater.

like jefferson said:

Quote:
I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors



--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2984782 -

Quote:
Perhaps you should read it again


Take your own advice. Then try to explain why the words "the people" mean anything but.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2985049 -

TaoTeChing said:
anyway, responding to his quote look at the first two amendments:

Quote:
Article [I.]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Article [II.]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


when congress is not supposed to make any law that would abridge a right, it seems that the writers were very clear about it. but even the freedom of speech has to be abridged in cases like shouting fire in a crowded theater.




I have heard this "Shouting Fire" crap too much. It is not illegal to shout fire in a crowded theater, provided there is a fire. To do so when there is not a fire is illegal. This comes from a 1919 supream court ruling where Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes,
Junior, wrote: "The most stringent protection of free speech would
not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic." To use this analogy for gun controle it would be like gaging everyone who walks in to the theater so that there is no chance of anyone yelling fire. Or requiring that you have a license to use the word "Fire". This license would require that you have a full background check to make sure you are not one of the people who is prone to yelling fire when there is not one.

To your second amendment quote, Did you read it?

Article [II.]
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

What does "Shall Not Be Infringed" mean?


"A well regulated Militia" is a nominative absolute.

"being necessary to the security of a free State" is a participial phrase modifying "Militia"

The subject (a compound subject) of the sentence is "the right of the people"

"shall not be infringed" is a verb phrase, with "not" as an adverb modifying the verb phrase "shall be infringed"

"to keep and bear Arms" is an infinitive phrase modifying "right"

The militia is simply all adult males capable of handling a weapon. These days, if women showed up, I suspect local militia leaders wouldn't dare complain. "The militia" is not to be confused with "a select militia." A select militia is a group which receives pay, training, and tasks above and beyond what is expected of the general population. The National Guard is an example of a select militia.

That said, What did our founding Fathers have to say about it?

"The said constitution shall never be constructed to authorize congress to prevent the people of the United States who are peaceable citizens from keeping their own arms" --- Samuel Adams

"Arms discourage and keep the invader in awe. Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived the use of them" --- Thomas Paine

"Resistance to sudden violence, for the preservation not only of my person, my limbs, and life, but of my property, is an indisputable right of nature which I have never surrendered to the public by the compact of society, and which perhaps, I could not surrender if I would." --- John Adams

"The defense of one's self, justly called the primary law of nature, is not, nor can it be abrogated by any regulation of municipal law." --- James Wilson,

"The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in THE PEOPLE" --- Fisher Ames

"The militia when properly formed are THE PEOPLE THEMSELVES and include all men capable of bearing arms." --- Richard Henry Lee

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crime. --- Thomas Jefferson

"The constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation ---- James Madison

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms.... The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."--Thomas Jefferson

"If ever time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in Government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." (Samuel Adams)

"THE PEOPLE are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their PRIVATE arms."-- Tench Coxe

"A free people ought to be armed" --- George Washington

"One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them" ---- Thomas Jefferson

St. George Tucker (1752-1828) who fought in the Revolutionary War, who served as a colonel in the Virgina Militia, and who was a friend of Thomas Jefferson once wrote:

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed and this may be considered as the true palladium of liberty .... The right of self defense is the first law of nature: in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest limits possible. Wherever standing armies are kept up, and the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, UNDER ANY COLOR OR PRETEXT WHATSOEVER, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction."


--------------------
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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Cyber]
    #2985571 -

In response to all your quotes from guys who lives 200+ years ago, again:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors"
-Thomas Jefferson


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2985594 -

Quote:
What does "Shall Not Be Infringed" mean?



Well, when I looked up the definition, it was "to go past the usual limit". Which would obviously be up for interpretation. Noone is calling for absolute outlawing of guns, just some small and reasonable requirements. For those that keep going on about inalienable rights to own arms I pose two questions:

1)Are there any people (including convicted felons and mentally diseased people) that should not have the right to bear arms?

2) is there any gun or arm that the people should not have a right to own?


--------------------
Magash's Grain Tek  + Tub-in-Tub Incubator + Magash's PMP + SBP Tek + Dunking = Practically all a newbie grower needs :thumbup:

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2985636 -

TaoTeChing said:
In response to all your quotes from guys who lives 200+ years ago, again:

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors"
-Thomas Jefferson


Yes but our founding Fathers put a method in place to make those changes. It is not to ignore to constution! If it truly was no longer needed and the natural law of self defense was something that no one needed then we can call a constitutional congress, amend the constution to reflect the changes in society, and have it ratified through the states.
Although it is vary evident that things have not changed in over 3000 years!

The Ancient Egyptian scribe Ipu-wer wrote,
"The land is full of gangs; a man goes to work with a shield... Crime is everywhere, there are no men like there used to be... Hearts are violent, storm sweeps the land, there's blood everywhere and no shortage of dead... What shall we do? What can we do? There is no good man anywhere... The hotheaded man says "If I knew where God was, I'd serve him."... If only this were the end of man, no more conceiving, no more births! Then the land would cease to shout and tumult would be no more! Woe is me for the grief of this time!... The wise says "yes," the fool says "no," and the ignorant is satisfied... Authority, knowledge and truth are with us, but we only make turmoil, and nobody listens to what anybody says."

That is as true today as it was over 3000 years ago. Man has not grown or become more enlightened. If you believe that man has become so enlightened than place a sign in your front yard that says "I support gun control, This is a gun free house!" You will find out just how enlightened man is!


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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2985637 -

1)Are there any people (including convicted felons and mentally diseased people) that should not have the right to bear arms?

add children to the list.

2) is there any gun or arm that the people should not have a right to own?

back when the bill of rights was written, projectile weapons were either called arms or ordinance. arms meant personal weapons that could be carried by a single person, such as muskets, rifles, and pistols. ordinance meant cannons and mortars. the bill of rights has never gauranteed any right of citizens to keep and bear artillery.

i think that modern "ordinance" like artillery peices, heavy machine guns, missile launchers, RPG's, hand grenades, chemical weapons, etc. are not to be owned by regular private citizens, nor does the constitution gaurantee protection of a right to do so.

however, i do think that modern rifles, handguns, and shotguns should all be legal for private citizens to own, and i do believe that the constitution gaurantees protection of our right to do so.

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Tao]
    #2987967 -

"what the hell are you talking about, you say there's no loophole and then you go on to describe the loophole...are you really that retarded? I was referring to private party sales, did you even read the whole thread?"

As I said there is no loophole. It's how the law is designed -- private party to private party sales do not fall under regulation, with stipulations.

"Perhaps you should read it again, it talks about "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State,", not about killing intruders by yourself. its speaking of the entire state's freedom, about being free from military takeover. that's what its referring to. "

That is your interpretation, which I hope you do see, as it is very obvious, is only an interpretation.

Personally, I would be of the mind to believe that the 'security of a free State' would by definition include the security of each and every person within that state, not merely of the state as a political entity.

Security covers a lot of things, not neccessarily intruders from outside. Security included being safe from any aggressors, foreign or domestic.

"I am not an advocate for frequent changes in laws and constitutions, but laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths discovered and manners and opinions change, with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also to keep pace with the times. We might as well require a man to wear still the coat which fitted him when a boy as civilized society to remain ever under the regimen of their barbarous ancestors"

Funny, but knowing Thomas Jefferson, and reading that quote, I would say that he is NOT arguing for a LESSING or CHANGING of rights, but rather a GROWTH of inalienable rights native to all humankind.
As times change, to keep pace with things, new rights and freedoms may become known that will have to be protected.

I do not think a developed, enlightened mind would ever want to restrict or lessen inalienable rights. I do think a developed, enlightened mind would seek greater freedom and rights, and not seek to shackle their own hands willingly.

Now please, look me in the eyes and tell me that you honestly and truthfully believe that Thomas Jefferson made that statement thinking that some day we would understand that he meant our natural rights that are not granted, but native to us and impervious to infringement by government whim, should some day BE infringed upon.

No, I don't think he did, and I think you KNOW you're lying to yourself if you think he was. I think you know very well that such a quote could only mean that while we have acknowledged these inalienable rights that are granted to us by none at our birth, there very well may be other rights that we have not today become aware of and some day this list of rights may need to be expanded upon to include other rights of mankind that none shall infringe or impede.



Too many godforsaken ostriches in this world. Too many people don't understand the simple fact that it's never been the things we have that cause our problems, but rather we cause our own problems. Create a responsible, intelligent and moral society, and each house could be issued a rocket launcher and a tank and nobody would be hurt.

Never forget it's always the idiots that fuck up society, and you should only deal with the idiots when solving problems they create. To do otherwise punishes many responsible men and still allows many idiots the freedom to commit mischief.

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: Cyber]
    #2988312 -

Cyber said:
"A well regulated Militia" is a nominative absolute.

"being necessary to the security of a free State" is a participial phrase modifying "Militia"

The subject (a compound subject) of the sentence is "the right of the people"

"shall not be infringed" is a verb phrase, with "not" as an adverb modifying the verb phrase "shall be infringed"

"to keep and bear Arms" is an infinitive phrase modifying "right"




Damn. You beat me to it.


--------------------
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: 'Assault' Weapons [Re: z@z.com]
    #2988330 -

z@z.com said:
Cyber said:
"A well regulated Militia" is a nominative absolute.

"being necessary to the security of a free State" is a participial phrase modifying "Militia"

The subject (a compound subject) of the sentence is "the right of the people"

"shall not be infringed" is a verb phrase, with "not" as an adverb modifying the verb phrase "shall be infringed"

"to keep and bear Arms" is an infinitive phrase modifying "right"




Damn. You beat me to it.


:lol:  :thumbup: :thumbup:


--------------------
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General Interest > Political Discussion
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