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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else?
    #24995534 -

Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? In the movie the matrix a child bending a spoon with her mind said "It's not the spoon that bends, it's the mind that bends". From my experience I'd say that's true.

Edited by kent101 (02/15/18 05:45 AM)

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: kent101]
    #24995600 -

Ignorance, as in not having an understanding of the laws of nature.

In a sense it's also hope that things won't be difficult or intense.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: sudly]
    #24995667 -

I think superstition is anecdotal knowledge, which is mixed information with crap. how you use superstition can be delusional, or entertaining, or useful.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24997626 -

Entertaining sure but useful seems a stretch, and with all the info available to us I'd think to believe in superstition is a choice.


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: sudly]
    #24998092 -

Usually it enters the play without being identified or announced as superstition.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24998142 -

Those aren't my farts, they're frogs!!


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I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: sudly]
    #24998208 -

If it keeps working, no harm in doing it.

If it stops working, stop doing it.


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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: Vahn421]
    #24998238 -

Superstition is a sort of delusion from Confirmation Bias. Superstition, prayer, and the like, is just counting the hits and ignoring the misses. People like to fool themselves that their favorite magic is real.


--------------------
Space Ape Project
Links For Getting Started
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Edited by LtLurker (02/16/18 10:20 AM)

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: LtLurker]
    #24998746 -

Superstition is just the belief in false truths. A false truth being some belief that can be consistently proven to be true if examined only on the basis of its result but not its causality. Like If I believed that a bird will fly over my head every time I pray, I will have this belief because I believe prayer to be the cause of them flying over my head, this would be a false truth if the case was that there was some other cause that was responsible for the flight, rather than my praying.

Like I have nothing against superstition but it feels like most of the time it comes from just believing false causes.


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Currently lacking any ideas

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: kent101]
    #24998756 -

Superstition, "Middle English: from Old French, or from Latin superstitio(n-), from super- ‘over’ + stare ‘to stand’ (perhaps from the notion of “standing over” something in awe)" can mean a dogmatic 'belief' that is formulated from synchronistic events, or from increased possibilities of 'accidents' under specific circumstances. In the first example, I'll cite the 'superstition' that it is bad luck to walk underneath a ladder. Obviously, a ladder will have someone working above you, or perhaps even an unattended ladder can have a hammer fall on your head or paint droplets fall on you. In other words there is a conceivable common sense behind this superstitious saying.

The second possible basis for superstition has to do with synchronicities, apparently non-causal events that are perceived as meaningful coincidences. By non-causal, there is no apparent physical reason 'why' something happens when it does, (even if the 'how' is understandable). Newtonian physics are not violated, but the 'timing' and the correspondence with inner psychic events is what makes for a synchronistic event. The thing is, until recently, I understood all synchronistic events to be spontaneous, and as the definition goes, non-causal by physical or by psychic forces, governed by what Jung called a 'transcendental factor' of the Self (very much the psychological synonym to the Tao). However, I experienced a truly profound synchronicity some years ago (It's not necessary to go into details, I've written on it before about my marriage ritual on 11/11/11). Later, I discovered the practice of Theurgy, a form of transcendental magick that 'constellates' a synchronicity when certain meaningful objects/substances/stones/plants/animals are gathered together and certain intentions are brought to bear by the participants. I was hoping something of a 'sign' would manifest, and it did. Yes it was a coincidence, a meaningful coincidence, and it had to do directly with the images we had arranged. Magic and mysticism are two idioms for synchronistic events, and whereas I used to see them as opposites based on selfish and selfless acts, respectfully, now I see the extremes as moving towards a mean.

So, it occurs to me that superstitions might result from repeated observations of similar or identical results (good or bad), that occur under similar or identical conditions. In a sense, there may well be occult 'sciences,' which is to say phenomena that can be replicated under controlled conditions. Unfortunately, if one is considering certain natural forces that cannot come under human ego control, then it is not going to function like doing chemistry under the same STP conditions, for example. Ley lines for example. If one was to perform a magickal operation at a certain spot on earth, but the unknown energies that pulse along the known ley lines were at an ebb rather than a flow, the operation would fail. One would need to know how to predict the proper time for doing the operation. Ceremonial magick and alchemy utilize astrological conditions, for example, so rituals or procedures can only be done within certain windows of time, relative to solar or lunar considerations, to operate. All of this complexity can be dismissed as mere meaningless superstition, or, many of these things can be considered more deeply. Look at those people who actually have located water or metals with dowsing rods.

Then there are the debunkers. But debunkers act as though their consciousness has nothing to do with the process. They are materialistic reductionists who will cite certain science, like chemistry, where under the same STP, reactions will always occur independently of the consciousness of the experimenter. This is apparently not the case regarding quantum experimentation, and also with subtle energies that belong more on the psychic end of the psychophysical continuum than on the physical end. WE are psychophysical beings and there is no reason to think that the rest of the space-time continuum is not just as psychophysical as we are. Well, yeah there is a reason - if one doesn't grok that consciousness is not identical with brain, then the notion that 'empty' space cannot participate in Mind will give reason to doubt the psychophysical nature of space-time. There is still mystery afoot in this universe, and humanity is far from having understood most of it.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24998854 -

Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:

Then there are the debunkers. But debunkers act as though their consciousness has nothing to do with the process. They are materialistic reductionists who will cite certain science, like chemistry, where under the same STP, reactions will always occur independently of the consciousness of the experimenter. This is apparently not the case regarding quantum experimentation, and also with subtle energies that belong more on the psychic end of the psychophysical continuum than on the physical end. WE are psychophysical beings and there is no reason to think that the rest of the space-time continuum is not just as psychophysical as we are. Well, yeah there is a reason - if one doesn't grok that consciousness is not identical with brain, then the notion that 'empty' space cannot participate in Mind will give reason to doubt the psychophysical nature of space-time. There is still mystery afoot in this universe, and humanity is far from having understood most of it.


That's a really common misunderstanding/representation of what happens with Quantum Physics. People like Deepak abuse the shit outta this. Firstly, these occurrences only happen on the Quantum Scale, not the Macro. Second, these changes don't occur because a consciousness is observing and changing it, it's because we use electrons to "see" whats going on and the subject is small enough to be affected by the electrons.

If there's a "psychophysical" aspect of the universe, you'd have to prove it exists before you can use it to explain anything. So far no one can test and confirm anything of the sort.


--------------------
Space Ape Project
Links For Getting Started
Current PF Tek
Shoebox Assembly
All The Agar Info You Could Want
How It Should & Shouldn't Look


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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24998886 -

well some debunkers want to just debunk anything even if it has not yet resolved, and some believers will just believe anything especially if it has the debunkers riled up.

what bugs me is when an isolated instance has interesting and consistent merit, it becomes an occasion to redraw the map of what is real or not, or switch allegiances to being a believer of superstition or not.


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:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: LtLurker]
    #24999789 -

You are partly correct as far as I am concerned. You miss entirely the variable of human observational presence and its role in determining physical laws comprehensible to the human being. You might argue that a tree does NOT fall silently without the presence of any animal, insect, plant, human or electronic apparatus capable of translating molecular vibration into 'sound.' Sound, like the perception of a rainbow, are not invariant, 'objective,' independent 'physical' realities. Human beings still affirm, in their hubris, that they perceive 'objective' reality, denying the obviousness of their subjective intermediary position. This approaches that Kantian philosophical notion of phenomena versus noumena, the latter term denoting a reality existing independently of any human perception or apperception, and as such unknown, a complete psychical blindness.

Proof of consciousness events is not possible by empirical device because consciousness is not a physical datum. It is experienced directly and has a certain ontological priority to the 5 senses. Senses inform consciousness, not the other way around except in the common meaning that we often see/hear what we want to. Consciousness has no mass, it cannot be defined as energy, it is not substantial and unextended in space-time and as such cannot be quantified. It seems like you have fallen into the sin of Scientism. I am all for the scientific method when it comes to physical phenomena, but consciousness has ontological priority to space-time. The physical universe developed from the undifferentiated 'primal plasma' of the Big Bang Event. Laws of physics did not exist until there was energy and matter which could operate in lawful ways. The Great Chain of Being began, as far as can be ascertained, when the expanse of energy differentiated into positive and negative, protons and electrons, thence to Hydrogen. From Hydrogen, stars, stellar death, the formation of all heavier elements, non-stellar bodies dominated by heavy elements, organic compounds, and...skipping a lot to avoid being boring...Life.

Life-forms (variously argued down the phylogenetic ladder to virus and even mineral existence in the most far-out speculation) seem to participate in consciousness, not create consciousness as an emergent phenomenon. What is emergent is the degree to which organisms are capable of participating in consciousness. As Jung and Wolfgang Pauli began to theorize, the universe is psychical as well as physical. It could not be proved, but quantum entanglement with simple particles may be a glimpse into the kind of light-speed transcending physical simultaneity that also occurs in psychical subjectively. I cannot prove that I've experienced "ring-like-a-bell-in-the-head" (G. Schmeidler) telepathy on several occasions, but I will maintain til my dying day that I have. Only twice was it corroborated, with horror, by the two friends whose thoughts I repeated back to them. I cannot prove that I've had a precognitive dream that illustrated a future objective event in my local space-time, but I have. Sometimes, at least initially, anecdotal, phenomenological analyses is the only methodology available. We're not living in that radical dualism of the show Altered Carbon. :lol: Philosophically, I like to live as though an Implicate Order of Platonic Forms (my pet idiom) informs our Explicate Order, with the Forms being like metaphysical DNA for every idea, potential or actual. I can't prove any of that either, but it makes for a very interesting lens with which to see phenomena. :yesnod: Feel free to disagree, I'm not here to convince, just to share my notions. :wink:

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Re: Is superstition delusion, insanity or something else? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24999881 -

redgreenvines said:
well some debunkers want to just debunk anything even if it has not yet resolved, and some believers will just believe anything especially if it has the debunkers riled up.

what bugs me is when an isolated instance has interesting and consistent merit, it becomes an occasion to redraw the map of what is real or not, or switch allegiances to being a believer of superstition or not.


When I was about 20, I took a couple of friends on a trip through a parcel of land I was acquainted with since childhood, Strahmann's field. The grass was quite high and I was in the lead, walking single-file on a foot path through the tall growth, surrounded by crabapple trees. Suddenly a large Box turtle crossed our path. We all stopped to look at it as we continued to get off on the acid. Then we resumed our single file walk through the tall grass and before long, LO! Another Box turtle crossed the narrow foot path. HFS! What are the odds we all thought? The path was less than a foot wide and these turtles crossed just as we came along. By this time, my friend Dave said "Hey! I want to walk in front," so he did, he took the path in front of me. OK, I can direct where I was taking the other two guys from the middle. Dave had not taken but a few steps when a solid black cat suddenly lept across the foot path. We all stopped, wordless and thoughtless for me anyway. Dave said, "Maybe I'll go back to the endow the line," and he did. I don't think I ever witnessed anyone react to a classic superstition like that before, and I do not remember him being superstitious.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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