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Belief in Belief
    #24079649 -

Supposing that knowledge is something like a "justified true belief" (a proposed definition) how much do we all believe in belief?

If you turn a door-knob to open a door and walk through from one space into another, how much do you comport yourself in this moment, according to belief? How much belief is necessary? You learn to solve equations; how much is what you do based on assumption of premises and how much is it something working itself out? As a musician if you learn a scale and the modulations of the scale, and progressions, and blocks of patterns of chords; when you play a song, how much must you really at a cognitive level rely on ideas, and how much do your fingers play themselves, and your ears guide you?

It will be probably be said somewhere along the line that we all comport ourselves "somewhat" according to beliefs. Maybe that is all that can be said. This statement can be demanded. We all live by a world of our opinions, and arguments, and these cognitive states. Is this demand that we are all equally "somewhat" found in our beliefs actually true?

Well, I think in a sense it is. I think this reflects our condition in one way, as social animals. Maybe it suggests something in a condition of existence that can be only adopted as receptiveness in face of the world. But I wonder if anyone would answer this in a personal and meditative way.

It seems to me belief in belief is a politicization of dialogue, that people (and I include myself in this) will insist on. It is something that is compulsive on an a collective and individual level at once. For instance, it is easy to think that everybody is comporting themselves, in this way, identifying with certain causes, and ideas, and thoughts of things in everyday life, and acting upon belief. In the worst case, we are constantly thinking that the first thing about someone is what they believe. It seems to me, this is not in just a reflex to act, but the way we believe this, which inflates our sense of things being based on belief.

Has anyone come face to face with a belief in belief?

Edited by Kurt (02/14/17 04:55 AM)

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24079791 -

This may interest you, some people like a roller coaster some don't.
Quote:
'If you close a door behind you then turn around to find a blank wall, either reality is crazy or you are.'

A door turning into a wall would mean that reality is crazy because reality has no fixed properties and can come and go at a whim.
If this was experienced it would mean I am stuck in a dream.

Craziness sometimes brings forth a fear because craziness comes in either a predictable or unpredictable way. If it's crazy in a predictable way then it is not crazy it just means the pattern is not yet known.

However, if it's crazy in an unpredictable way then I may be trapped inside the the mind of a madman.

So, if I walk into a room, turn around and the door is gone and it's not reality than I am crazy.
If reality is not crazy then I could be crazy.




--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24079977 -

Not sure I understand you. Like I have said in the past, your posts are very wordy, and cerebral (for me), but that is your style.

Personally, having had psychedelic experience, and from quite young, 15, I can say that they REALLY expose the hypnotic place or state many people are, regarding what they believe.

The very perception can become kind of static if we believe an image we have of someone. (some place, come thing, of ourself(s)). We don't even have to know them. they can be someone we see on the TV who we may not like and THAT becomes our belief in who they 'are'. Thus every time we see them this prejudice becomes entrenched.

And I have got insights into this process thanks to psychedelic experience.

For example, I remember mot liking these three female country singers. I thought them red neck and plastic, but one day I had eaten some magic mushrooms and was watching TV and they appeared in a show, and I totally saw them utterly differently, and later realized just how perception can be literally solidified in prejudice...STATIC. This is why psychedelic experience is ec~static.

We flow with real now livingness of reality where be-LIE-f can be seen as some static image we form that prevents this flowingness and openmindedness...and love

Same is so with playing music. I have experimented a lot of both playing instruments and singing when on psychedelics, and recording it, as well as when I am 'straight' and there can be a vast difference. On psychedelics it is a feeling of SUCH primal creative aliveness that it is like being possessed by music, by nature. There is no sense of division: Of 'I' am 'Playing/singing'. We are led to be-LIE-ve we are alienated little consciousnesses in a dead commodified world. Some people believe they cannot play music or sing or dance! tragic!

Edited by zzripz (02/10/17 03:43 PM)

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: zzripz]
    #24080362 -

:thumbup:

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: zzripz]
    #24080530 -

You're right that the OP is too wordy. I wrote it off quick. Let me see if I can scratch this out a little better.

Here is the best I think I can put it.

"Belief in belief" could be something cerebral, or it could be psychological, like Sudly says. But aren't the conventional truths of our world that we follow of the world as well at the same time? What I am interested in, in this idea is not just the tendency of prejudice, but convention we in many ways have to synchronize with. 

Driving a car I follow the lines that seperate two sides of the road. (In America we drive on the right.) I believe in this. It is not just that the line is there and signifies something, to some human beings either. Like other human beings, I'd say tentatively, I believe in my belief.

How do we choose to or choose not to live by convention? It is not necessarily a stark example of a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Hopefully it is not, but I guess it can be. My friend drove me to my house once tripping balls on mushrooms in highschool... I knew he was concentrating so hard... He was trying to stay and keep his mind and keep the car between those lines. We weren't being completely irresponsible; we had thought we were done tripping, but sometimes with mushrooms, another wave comes, right?

So we were were in this box, trying to stay in it, and secure, while going out of our heads at the same time. I remember telling him my turn was coming up and I could tell by how he responded it was like he was in outer space, but he was just like "what, oh", and made the turn, and it was a cinch, and that was all as crazy as a moment seemed.

Isn't the same thing happening in the world though too? Here is a less cerebral example. I used to sometimes have to drive late at night for my job...I knew I could tell myself, or try to concentrate on how I was driving, how I was really sitting two to three feet above the ground in metal encasing, rolling rubber over the smooth and gravelly road, at 50 miles per hour, but inevitably on some occasions I would nod.

What I found on a few jobs like that, is gas station coffee doesn't work at a point. The only thing that really works evidently is scaring the shit out of yourself, and jerking up. Adrenaline pumps through a moment, and then you're wide awake. That will only last maybe a good ten minutes though... I try not to ever do that anymore (anymore than drive tripping). I would say it is better that I sincerely believe in my belief in those lines. So I just pull over to the side of the road and sleep and would recommend that to anyone.

Quote:
later realized just how perception can be literally solidified in prejudice...STATIC. This is why psychedelic experience is ec~static.


I think what I am trying to get at is close to this. Perception does seem to solidify, and become static. I sometimes have wondered at how when it does, things somehow become more symbolic, more interpreted, or like a language itself. I think this occurs in the world too, at the same time it happens in the mind or in a prejudice.

I believe (in my belief) that the car in front of me turns on a blinker to signal that at the next turn it is turning right. He believes in his belief. This is solidified and consolidated, not just in an agreement, but in the world.

A stop sign signifies nothing in itself; because it is just a thing, something I can see, red, with white letters and understand in a word and syllable, and what the word means. But this is one law that I follow to the letter every day. The light is red, and green and yellow and I know this too. I remember when I was little and on family vacations, driving late at night half awake the trucks with all their colored lights, made the road seem like some kind of midnight procession. If aliens looked down on all this from a distance we really would look like ants following ants or bees in a beeline.

Philosophers have made distinctions between conventional truth and actual truth, where they are like two sides of the same coin. Maybe all it is is an analogy. Where some convention is clearly empty, something we construct, how much else is empty, as it is in nature? I am interested in the immediacy and simultaneity of this phenomenon. This is the best I think my brain is going to work at the moment.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24080640 -

I wish I was bright enough to understand your posts, but I am not.

Regarding the subject "Belief in Belief".  I like the idea of rejecting belief.  Belief is mostly bad as far as I can tell.  Sure, this is a belief in its own right.  A paradox of language may be uncomfortable, it may be fun - but either way sometimes it happens and that is ok.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: DieCommie]
    #24080890 -

I think it's like nature vs nurture, why can't we have both?

Sometimes we believe in what is explicitly natural and sometimes we don't.


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: DieCommie]
    #24081073 -

I appreciate your ironic pat on the back. If my idea isn't coherent though, it's my fault, because I tend to write in a convoluted idiom. I try to work on it...but am ambivilant too. :lol:

I'm not really into describing things as paradoxes or in my one hand clapping. What would you say are the paradoxes of language?

I think I can put my initial question pretty clearly. A question won't be a statement of something so it might not seem logically simple. But the question is something like "how much do we (or should we) believe that people act in the world based upon belief?" How much do we believe that it is really significant that human beings organize and act and perceive a world in these conventional belief based ways? I think human beings tend to exaggerate and inflate this.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24081081 -

How else does a man like Jonathan Sarfati who believes the Earth is 6000 years old become a good chemist if our beliefs don't influence the things we do or think?


--------------------
I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.


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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24081090 -

Kurt said:
What would you say are the paradoxes of language?


In this case its simply that the rejection of belief is itself a belief.

Kurt said:
I think I can put my initial question pretty clearly. A question won't be a statement of something so it might not seem logically simple. But the question is something like "how much do we (or should we) believe that people act in the world based upon belief?" How much do we believe that it is really significant that human beings organize and act and perceive a world in these conventional belief based ways? I think human beings tend to exaggerate and inflate this.


I'm trying here, but still not quite understanding.  "...conventional belief based ways"? 

Maybe I can understand this one, "how much do we (or should we) believe that people act in the world based upon belief?"  What other option is there?  Instinct?  If that is the case then I would put most actions in the bin of instinct rather than belief.  Though there is certainly a convolution of the two.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24081421 -

OK, if we're using driving as an analogy, I would say that people abiding by the rules of the road, and stop signs etc is more consensual agreement rather than belief. This is a very IMPORTANT agreement, because if you suddenly drive on the wrong side of the road it is going to be swift justice. Whereas if your belief in some belief changes nothing that bad will happen physically at least--well as immediately as a car  or person collision.

And talking about that: the other day I found myself watching car accident videos at youtube. I saw how quickly they can happen, and how people form an image , that they are insulated from the world, especially now in their computerized tank-like chariots, and yet quickwer than a flash they can find themselves in the bloody midst of scrap metal dying

I try and be a safe driver, and have become aware especially lately just how manic people are driving, unaware that their driving badly can have drastic effect for other road users (which the videos showed).

I recommend EVERYone who drives to watch some of these crash vids!

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #24081638 -

still waay too wordy, you can clarify and then decide if it hangs together  eg.

Quote:
Kurt said:...
How do we choose to or choose not to live by convention? It is not necessarily a stark example of a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Hopefully it is not, but I guess it can be.
...


simple sentences can be clearer and less cheesy:
Quote:
simplified:...
How do we choose to live by convention? It is not such a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Maybe it can be.
...


if that means anything like the  original (which I am not even sure it does - therefore I admit I don't understand your writing at all) then it can even be simpler:

Quote:
essence:...
Maybe choosing to live by convention is sanity.
...


back to you Kurt


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24081901 -

-


--------------------
A bunch of jokes, with a grain of truth in each.

The early bird gets the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

What will be, will be. :pipesmoke:

Edited by psychobla (03/23/18 12:35 PM)

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: psychobla]
    #24081967 -

psychobla said:
The placebo effect of sugar pills has grown stronger over the years.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124367058

I suspect this is a byproduct of pharmaceutical advertising over the course of a couple generations, but it is real evidence of the power of belief.

If we have more belief in belief is belief more powerful? I think so.

How do we make use of this information? I don't know.

I think it's important to be aware of this stuff whenever "groupthink" is damaging society. The placebo effect can work against you just as much as it can work for you.


Many people won't believe something until they see it on TV, and will believe virtually anything that is on TV.  These same people will disbelieve anything on Youtube or the internet in general, as if the media is somehow the message.  Of course, we have newspapers such as the NYT and WaPost that publish "real news" to further discount the "fake news" of the alternative media.

It has been shown that with enough peer pressure even blatantly obvious lies can be made into truths.  Our need to conform is mostly greater than our need to be right when the herd is obviously wrong.

So much of "believing" is in fact merely conformance to the programming of your youth.  You believe, once again, what you were told or saw on TV.

9/11 is a great example of people believing what they are told to believe.  Many will never question the official story, they find comfort in numbers and being comfortably numb.



I don't believe in anything.  I am a truth seeker, and once the truth is revealed, there is no more reason to believe in the lies.  Beliefs are for those who can't even begin to handle the truth.  The mass denial of the ongoing sixth great extinction event and the ongoing cataclysmic radiation poisoning and aerosol spraying being only two examples.  It's not a conspiracy, you are being fucking radiated and sprayed like the lab rat you are.  Period.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: DieCommie]
    #24083291 -

I think when people say something like "atheism is an expressed belief" they don't take into much consideration how or why they are really saying this. It seems mostly to be a form of rhetoric adopted for leverage in discussions. What theists in recent times say in my experience, is that any expressed argument in a public space of conjecture must be formally (according to a much abused western rationalist enterprise) considered a belief or perception or view about the world. I am not getting at anything like that.

If an atheist is actually arguing something, I think it is reasonable to assume it comes from perceptions, views and beliefs. But what is being argued or claimed in atheism? Is anything being claimed? The scientific mindset is not claiming anything about the world contrary to a theist's claim. It is possible for an atheistic scientist to go through a catalogue of essentially conjectural statements of belief, one by one, and consider them in certain terms and whether there is evidence for them.

Where language is funny to me, is that a lack of evidence, usually entails there was no xoherently expressed argument about the world in the first place. No evidence, no argument...but will there always be belief?

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24083564 -

redgreenvines said:
still waay too wordy, you can clarify and then decide if it hangs together  eg.

Quote:
Kurt said:...
How do we choose to or choose not to live by convention? It is not necessarily a stark example of a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Hopefully it is not, but I guess it can be.
...


simple sentences can be clearer and less cheesy:
Quote:
simplified:...
How do we choose to live by convention? It is not such a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Maybe it can be.
...


if that means anything like the  original (which I am not even sure it does - therefore I admit I don't understand your writing at all) then it can even be simpler:

Quote:
essence:...
Maybe choosing to live by convention is sanity.
...


back to you Kurt



I thought clarifying would make sense, but I like what you are doing. :lol:

From what I can see you took a statement you admitted you didn't understand, in isolation, removed it a step from context, and then changed it around a bit, until it said something I did not say or mean, and tried to make fun of it.

If you actually think what I was trying to say was emotive (I see what you think I was saying) you misinterpreted in general. Sorry. Maybe try to keep it inside the box a little more next time and figure out how this works a little more in general.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt] * 1
    #24084123 -

do you mean that your post is only supposed to be meaningful only if accepted in the fullness of swirling notions, each of which have no definite meaning to anyone else but yourself?

this may presume to levitate an amorphous idea on the gas of deconstructed vocabulary.

naturally if anyone agrees they are dupes, it is a good way to find mind slaves I guess.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24084500 -

So are you asking me what I was saying? If you stop free associating for a moment, and ease up with whatever this impression you have of me is maybe I can. I admit it was a confusing wording.

What people here at the shroomery describe as a baseline is often characteristically visceral, psychedelic and usually psychological experience in the world. I guess we all came here to associate about this kind of thing.  For example, from this thread:



Quote:
If you close a door behind you then turn around to find a blank wall, either reality is crazy or you are.'

A door turning into a wall would mean that reality is crazy because reality has no fixed properties and can come and go at a whim.
If this was experienced it would mean I am stuck in a dream.



Quote:
this may presume to levitate an amorphous idea on the gas of deconstructed vocabulary.

naturally if anyone agrees they are dupes, it is a good way to find mind slaves I guess.





Quote:
Personally, having had psychedelic experience, and from quite young, 15, I can say that they REALLY expose the hypnotic place or state many people are, regarding what they believe.



I think we also have a response to conventionality of our world, in the world, everyday life, and language, that is less psychologically charged. That was where I was coming from and tend to.

A question of how we live in a conventional, real world, can be open to philosophy too, along with all the counterculture.

What I was trying to describe in this thread is things like opening a door, or driving a car in real life with attention, or like being in the zone when you perform an art, or whatever it is you do. These are baseline anecdotes that could be drawn from too. Losing formalities and beliefs in everyday life is possible.

I regret how much confusion that some turn of phrase caused, but you could have just followed the logic. You choose to react the way you do.

Quote:
How do we choose to or choose not to live by convention? It is not necessarily a stark example of a thin line between the sane and insane is it? Hopefully it is not, but I guess it can be.



To you this "essentially " means:

Quote:
essence:...
Maybe choosing to live by convention is sanity


When you react, you can have a moment to act out, but then I guess you end up taking a conservative or over defensive position, and end up in a conceptual box. We all believe this, and feel this way from time to time, I guess. Maybe it is possible to steady those reactions and counter reactions a bit?

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: Kurt]
    #24084612 -

"you can say anything, but denying some fact does not create validity in an alternate fact.
the whole idea of alternate facts is very disturbing

you could say that life and matter are inseparable things, but in history, there was a time before life." -rgv


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.

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Re: Belief in Belief [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24084870 -

Belief in sharing thoughts: plain simple language helps deliver clear images.

Kurt;
you might yet have some nuanced revelation that I still do not understand.

Maybe you can work the message better rather than claiming that I am "reacting" before the understanding dawns, requiring that I stand more patiently among the echoes of your phrases that do not articulate your idea clearly.


--------------------
:brainfart: _ :finger:

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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