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Offlinelucid
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how would u change an ingrained belief ?
    #3547321 - 12/27/04 09:50 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i posted something similar a while ago and it turned into
a post about me... i do not want this to happen so
i'm asking again and will clarify...
how would u change a belief/like/aversion
(without drugs) that seems ingrained ? for example,
perhaps it would be more useful (might be easier
or would increase the choice) to like fat partners
of the opposite sex. For most of us in the Western
world this seems like an impossible task. I mean,
for me personally, it's so ingrained that i
have no idea how to change this preference. it seems
like a useless preference and something that's hard
wired to the point that most people feel that that
there is something "natural" about it.
Do u see what I'm trying to get at here ?
think of a belief/like/aversion that u have that
u might be much better without and let me know
how u would change it ? challenge it internally
everytime it comes up ?
i'm thinking of things like "liking the color blue"
as opposed to "liking sub zero temperature"
(since the latter could be argued to have "organic"
significance)


--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3547324 - 12/27/04 09:53 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

by logically, conciously examing the belief, and finding it logically flawed, and then finding another belief that is logically more sound. the change will then happen naturally,

OR experience the previous truth as a falsity, or experience a new truth as truer.


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3547361 - 12/27/04 10:17 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

A whole insight into the realization that a belief is just that - a belief.

Rationality and pragmaticism needs ZERO beliefs. This includes rational and pragmatic spirituality; inner-health.

Krishnamurti: Yes. Begin at the schoolboy level and say 'DO these things.'

David Bohm: Well what are they? Let's go over them.

K: No belief.

DB: A person may not be able to control what he believes, he may not know what he believes.

K: No, don't control anything. Observe that you have belief, you cling to the belief, belief gives you a sense of security and so on.
And that belief is an illusion, it has no reality.

That, is rationality.

Irrationality comes into play when one identifies themselves [clings] to beliefs which are incongruent with reality.

Life is far more clear, precise and simple when one is rational, logical and sane.

I don't need beliefs, why should I have beliefs? All I 'need' are facts.

No belief, absolute rationality, observation.

Facts are what is happening, actually happening. The actual is only one time and one place; Here and Now. To be here and now, one must have at least some rationality within them.



--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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the genie is inside your bodle [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3547392 - 12/27/04 10:46 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

important things can be changed, this is not an arbitrary issue as posed with "not liking blue" of "swooning over fat people".

like the genie in the bottle, you might get three wishes and 9 times out of ten you will fuck them all up miserably by wishing for the wrong thing or in the wrong way.

that said, Cognitive therapy really works. and it takes effort - real effort.

also vipassana works in which you learn not to react to triggers that are connected strongly to one of three roots: hatred, greed or delusion. and it also takes effort - real effort.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: the genie is inside your bodle [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3547430 - 12/27/04 11:09 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

If there was something I had an aversion to and I wanted to stop/change that aversion, I would immerse myself in it, unless it was a bathtub full of snakes. 

I don't know if you can stop doing something you really love.  I mean, are we talking fetishes here?  I don't think I could give up my fetish.  :grin:


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: the genie is inside your bodle [Re: Frog]
    #3547442 - 12/27/04 11:13 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Frog said:
If there was something I had an aversion to and I wanted to stop/change that aversion, I would immerse myself in it, unless it was a bathtub full of snakes. 

I don't know if you can stop doing something you really love.  I mean, are we talking fetishes here?  I don't think I could give up my fetish.  :grin:




immersion is part of cognitive therapy
immersion & desensitization

immersion is also the essence of vipassana
immersion and keeping still.

immersion is also what I do in the bath
getting wet and clean with or without snakes.


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Offlinenamaste
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3547680 - 12/27/04 12:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

get out your notebook and write down everything that comes to mind about the subject...everything. Then choose the most fitting statements for you new belief and summarize them to one sentence. There you go, done. In the future just have ideas, because they are much easier to change.


--------------------


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3549921 - 12/27/04 09:38 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

we all believe that 2+2=4, how do you suppose we can make it so that this is not the case?

i wont go any further....i dont want to look too whacky, even on the internet :wink:


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineGlobalSmoke
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: kadakuda]
    #3550376 - 12/27/04 10:59 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

i can show you how 1+1=3

1 male
1 female

= 1 baby

3 people.


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Offlineiliketoplay
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3551215 - 12/28/04 02:01 AM (12 years, 3 months ago)

I grew up raised strongly as a christian. I used to see things as a kid. Then my mother told me it was demons, now I have leanred it is the ability to see energy, or rather chi.

I was a strong christian. I went to penicostal church. They healed people. They laids hands on people and the people fell and communicated w/ the lord. I could never get this. No matter how devout I was or how hard I tried, I never got communication from god. I felt, as if why not me. What is wrong w/ me. I began to look at the religion stongly. I found many who contridicted themselves. Many who changed the rules that "God" made. It caused me to question the faith. My passion to seek christ instilled in my by my mother turned to a passion to seek the truth. I read alot, I tried to comprehend the truth path to heaven. Nothing seemed to match up and as I began to question the integrity of man and politics I began to realize what was false in religion, in the organized system.

I began reading, "Wisdom without Answers." The book caused me to ask questions that I had been afraid to even think in my past. I continued on in this book, cause I wanted free of the filters and programing given to me by the faith. The book drove me to a state of insanity. I question all from the existance to god, to the existance of myself. What was real, what was right, and why was anything. I had never taken a philospy class so this was all new to me. I was taught that phillosophy classes brain wash people. As I continued to read and lie awake in bed thinking, I began breaking the bindings of the programing. I had to restructure myself when I was done. I had to come to acceptance of reality and that i am here reading this book and my memories are not just some dream. I developed my own moral system free of biblical influence. I followed one carnal rule. I wish to find the truth, and only by giving the truth shall I be worthty of the truth.

This is how I myself broke free of religion. I still had many strugles along the way, and some things came back into my system, butI fought them off once again. I did try a few other religions, and finally here I am now w/o a religion leanring about how the world thinks and the energy around me, while trying to find things in various theology that does work and can work for me.
And above all I found that the truth is inside rather then "out there."


--------------------
I am the wrench that keeps the "MACHINE" running while looking forward to the day that I can take it apart.


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Offlinenamaste
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: iliketoplay]
    #3554234 - 12/28/04 09:36 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

thanks for sharing. i think "it"-the truth comes from within, but from something much greater than ourselves.


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Offlineergot
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: namaste]
    #3554404 - 12/28/04 10:27 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Read John C. Lilly and metaprogram yourself with the aid of brain-change substances such as LSD and 'shrooms.


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlineergot
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: ergot]
    #3554439 - 12/28/04 10:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Ohhh--without drugs... well, then--I'd read over "Undoing Yourself with Energized Meditation and Other Devices" by Dr. Christopher Hyatt...


--------------------
"Remain a learner, never become a knower." - Osho


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Offlinesoulmotion
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3554579 - 12/28/04 11:11 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

As a tree grows, it's branches extend in different directions. If you want to change the direction a branch is growing in you could apply a force to the branch, and gradually the tree will adjust it's limb in the direction it is being pulled (or pushed). The thicker the branch, the more pressure will need to be applied over a longer time.

When you talk about 'ingrained beliefs' you're talking about beliefs that are attatched to the root of your psyche and in order to change them (usually) you will have to physically change your habits, or your enviroment, or lifestyle-- whatever, and gradually, over time you will adjust. In some cases this change will not occur in your lifetime but through the generations of your posterity (depending on the strength of the disposition in question).


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Offlineiliketoplay
THE White Devil

Registered: 06/10/04
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: ergot]
    #3554704 - 12/28/04 11:35 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

ergot said:
Ohhh--without drugs... .




Logic made me an athiest while drugs (shrooms) brought me back to feeling that there is something greater out there.


--------------------
I am the wrench that keeps the "MACHINE" running while looking forward to the day that I can take it apart.


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Offlinelucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness

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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3557383 - 12/29/04 02:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

SkorpivoMusterion said:
A whole insight into the realization that a belief is just that - a belief.

Rationality and pragmaticism needs ZERO beliefs. This includes rational and pragmatic spirituality; inner-health.

Krishnamurti: Yes. Begin at the schoolboy level and say 'DO these things.'

David Bohm: Well what are they? Let's go over them.

K: No belief.

DB: A person may not be able to control what he believes, he may not know what he believes.

K: No, don't control anything. Observe that you have belief, you cling to the belief, belief gives you a sense of security and so on.
And that belief is an illusion, it has no reality.

That, is rationality.

[/qoute]
hi SK,I've read quite a bit of Krishnamurthi (unfortunately
a bit tooo much :wink: whenever cornered he has thhis thing where
he goes "let go og everythinig"....
It is convenience to say the following
Quote:


Irrationality comes into play when one identifies themselves [clings] to beliefs which are incongruent with reality.



...BUT is it IRRATIONAL to like green instead of read ?
Life is far more clear, precise and simple when one is rational, logical and sane.

I don't need beliefs, why should I have beliefs? All I 'need' are facts.

No belief, absolute rationality, observation.

Facts are what is happening, actually happening. The actual is only one time and one place; Here and Now. To be here and now, one must have at least some rationality within them.






--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: lucid]
    #3557878 - 12/29/04 05:28 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

...BUT is it IRRATIONAL to like green instead of [red] ?

Yes! But is it a 'dangerous' belief? Not necessarily - although, as with any case when one projects an exaggeration of good qualities onto an object or someone and attaches themselves to it [I love it!], it does create the potential for conflict, however light or heavy.

You can take this further and see that it's actually when any belief is formed [belief is clinging], it generates the potential for confliction and suffering.

But that's not to say that we cannot enjoy things or people with simplicity and without attachment.

This brings to mind of the Third Patriarch of Zen:

The Perfect Way knows no difficulties,
Except that it refuses to make preferences.
Only when freed from hate and love
Does it reveal itself fully and without disguise.

A tenth of an inch?s difference,
And heaven and earth are set apart.
If you wish to see it before your own eyes,
Have no fixed thoughts either for or against it.

To set up what you like against what you dislike ?
This is the disease of the mind.
When the deep meaning of the Way is not understood,
Peace of mind is disturbed to no purpose. . . .

Pursue not the outer entanglements,
Dwell not in the inner void;
Be serene in the oneness of all things,
And dualism vanishes of itself.

When you strive to gain quiescence by stopping motion,
The quiescence so gained is ever in motion.
So long as you tarry in such dualism,
How can you realize oneness?

And when oneness is not thoroughly grasped,
Loss is sustained in two ways:
The denying of external reality is the assertion of it,
And the assertion of Emptiness [the Absolute] is the
denying of it. . . .

Transformations going on in the empty world that confronts us
Appear to be real because of Ignorance.
Do not strive to seek after the True,
Only cease to cherish opinions.

The two exist because of the One;
But hold not even to this One.
When a mind is not disturbed,
The ten thousand things offer no offence. . . .

If an eye never falls asleep,
All dreams will cease of themselves;
If the Mind retains its absoluteness,
The ten thousand things are of one substance.

When the deep mystery of one Suchness is fathomed,
All of a sudden we forget the external entanglements;
When the ten thousand things are viewed in their oneness,
We return to the origin and remain where we have always been. . . .

One in all,
All in one ?
If only this is realized,
No more worry about not being perfect!

When mind and each believing mind are not divided,
And undivided are each believing mind and Mind,
This is where words fail,
For it is not of the past, present or future.





--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


Edited by SkorpivoMusterion (12/29/04 06:05 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3557981 - 12/29/04 05:57 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

now i know why i love loving so much :P


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: iliketoplay]
    #3558545 - 12/29/04 08:34 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

iliketoplay said:
Quote:

ergot said:
Ohhh--without drugs... .




Logic made me an athiest while drugs (shrooms) brought me back to feeling that there is something greater out there.




same here, so im going with "Agnostic"


--------------------
The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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InvisibleMoonshoe
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Re: how would u change an ingrained belief ? [Re: GlobalSmoke]
    #3562436 - 12/30/04 08:08 PM (12 years, 3 months ago)

"i can show you how 1+1=3

1 male
1 female

= 1 baby

3 people. "

im sorry but this is incredible to me i had to bump the thread just for this.

I think right here youve summarized the miracle of existance, the prescence of the tao, the flaw in mathematical thinking, all in one fell swoop.

The sum is greater than the whole of its parts.

the secret of creation?

1 + 1 = 3.

genius.

or maybe im just stoned but im pretty sure its genius


--------------------


Everything I post is fiction.


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