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InvisibleSwami
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Adopting Beliefs
    #3911191 - 03/13/05 01:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

It seems there are a few basic reasons why someone might adopt a belief or belief system:

1. They were taught/indoctrinated by culture and family.

Brain-washing or mind-clouding by society and peers is a piss-poor reason for a true seeker to believe anything unless your only goal is to "get along".


2. They read or heard something that seemed to supply comfort or answers to life's questions.

Placing faith in another because of historical reasons (others believe or have believed, so IT MUST have value) is another form of going along with the crowd.

Adopting a belief because the teacher/author/speaker is charismatic (Hitler was v-e-r-y charismatic!) is personality worship and is in effect giving one's power away and assuming an inferior position. This should also have no impact on the true seeker.


What about experiences? An experience is an event in time/space and is not a belief. After the fact, a flimsy mental construct may be built around the event that has absolutely nothing to do with what occurred and is just more borrowed mish-mash superimposed upon a seemingly meaningful memory of the occurence.


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The proof is in the pudding.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911202 - 03/13/05 01:52 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yes, there is truth in what you say.


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: egghead1]
    #3911206 - 03/13/05 01:54 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I gain beliefs from experience, but I don't store them in words, nor do I think in words. I understand what I experience, and I consider that understanding to be my beliefs, which I can express in words if I so choose.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3911209 - 03/13/05 01:56 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Then your words or concepts that you use to explain are not flowing from your direct experience but are comming from a belief system based on memories of your previous experiences.


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OfflineDoom
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: egghead1]
    #3911215 - 03/13/05 01:57 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

swami, why is your grammer so good? if you are so anti-systematic, then you should reject grammer, being the highly-developed system it is for a more chaotic form of expression, a la Joyce or Ginsberg. You know, dig your own ideolect rather than merely adopting someone elses.

because right now, you are adhering perfectly to the dictations of a long established system of thought, a system created and manipulated by governments and aristocracies.


Edited by Doom (03/13/05 01:58 PM)


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911253 - 03/13/05 02:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

One's model for reality should be based on our experiences, but our starting point is always based on someone else's beliefs. It is unavoidable.
Doom:
Good grammar is only a matter of practicality not a system of beliefs. Good grammar is designed for effective communication only, and has no bearing on this topic.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Doom]
    #3911266 - 03/13/05 02:10 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

I adopt this convention for clarity and to reach to widest possible audience. It has nothing to do with belief. Creating my own language from scratch is useless as a communication tool. Modifying the convention or using a more poetic expression merely muddies the transmission when discussing philosophy.

a la Joyce or Ginsberg
These writers STILL used words and letters.


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #3911303 - 03/13/05 02:20 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

One's model for reality should be based on our experiences, but our starting point is always based on someone else's beliefs. It is unavoidable.

Yes, one life is too short to completely rediscover and reinvent everything that was handed-down, so faith and belief must be utilized AS A STARTING POINT only.

However, nothing new is ever learned without questioning. Progress requires brave minds that do not accept the status quo in any field.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911318 - 03/13/05 02:23 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Yes i agree 100%  :thumbup: Questioning is the basis for true understanding. If you ask a stupid question your a fool for 5 minutes, if you never ask your a fool for a lifetime.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911340 - 03/13/05 02:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The problems with beliefs

by Jim Walker



Introduction


People have slaughtered each other in wars, inquisitions, and political actions for centuries and still kill each other over beliefs in religions, political ideologies, and philosophies. These belief-systems, when stated as propositions, may appear mystical, and genuine to the naive, but when confronted with a testable bases from reason and experiment, they fail miserably. I maintain that beliefs create more social problems than they solve and that beliefs, and especially those elevated to faith, produce the most destructive potential to the future of humankind.

Throughout history, humankind has paid reverence to beliefs and mystical thinking. Organized religion has played the most significant role in the support and propagation of beliefs and faith. This has resulted in an acceptance of beliefs in general. Regardless of how one may reject religion as their belief, religious support of supernatural events gives credence to other superstitions in their support of faith (belief without evidence), mysticism, and miracles. Most scientists, politicians, philosophers, and even atheists support the notion that some forms of belief provide a valuable means to establish "truth" as long as it contains the backing of data and facts. Belief has long become a socially acceptable form of thinking in science as well as religion. Indeed, once a proposition turns to belief, it automatically undermines opposition to itself. Dostoyevsky warned us that those who reject religion "will end by drenching the earth in blood." But this represents a belief in-itself. Our history has shown that the blood letting has occurred mostly as a result of religions or other belief-systems, not from the people who reject them.

However, does rational thinking require the adherence to beliefs at all? Does productive science, ethics, or a satisfied life require any attachment to a belief of any kind? Can we predict future events, act on data, theories, and facts without resorting to belief? This paper attempts to show that, indeed, one need not own beliefs of any kind or express them in human language to establish scientific facts, predict future events, observe and enjoy nature, or live a productive, moral, and useful life.

Relative to the history of life, human languages have existed on the earth for only a few thousand years, a flash of an instant compared to the millions of years of evolution. (Estimates for the beginnings of language range from 40,000 to 200,000 years ago). It should come to no surprise that language takes time to develop into a useful means of communication. As in all information systems, errors can easily creep into the system, especially at the beginning of its development. It should not come to any wonder that our language and thought processes may contain errors, delusions and beliefs. It would behoove us to find and attempt to deal with these errors and become aware of their dangers.

The ability to predict the future successfully provides humans with the means to survive. No other animal species has a capacity to think, remember, imagine, and forecast to the degree of Homo sapiens. To replace our thoughts with intransigent beliefs belies the very nature of the very creative thinking process which keeps us alive.



The rest of this excellent article can be read here:
http://www.nobeliefs.com/beliefs.htm


Here are some excerpts:

Examples of non-beliefs

Many people misunderstand what constitutes belief and what does not. For many, belief has so infiltrated their minds, that everything perceived or thought incorporates a belief for them, including all of their knowledge and experience. However, beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements; although one can believe in knowledge, one can know without beliefs; although one certainly accepts their own beliefs, not all things accepted require beliefs.

Consider that if one defined belief to incorporate all forms of thought, then the word belief would become tautological and meaningless, not to mention that knowledge and experience would fall as a subset of belief. Need I remind that words differ not only in their spelling, but in their meanings? The following gives examples of non-beliefs:

Acceptance: Although belief requires some form of acceptance, not all things accepted require belief (beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements). Examples: I can accept the premise of a fictional story, but I do not for one moment believe in it. I can accept a scientific hypothesis without believing in it. Computers accept data and produce solutions, but computers have no consciousness, let alone beliefs. Many arguments can take the form of Devil's Advocate to oppose an argument with which the arguer may not necessarily disagree.

Action: Although many people believe in the actions they perform, one can act without beliefs (beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements). Actions can occur out of a desire, a submission to an authority, or by unplanned events or even by mechanical means completely absent of humans. Examples: I can act a part without believing in it. I can act from a set of rules, but I do not need to believe the rules. I might act from an order from the police or government. I may act out of a desire to achieve something. There occurs no action which requires belief.

Agreement: Although belief requires some form of agreement, not all agreements represent beliefs (beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements). However, for some people (myself included), agreement requires no belief at all. Examples: I might agree that Captain Kirk served aboard the Starship Enterprise, but I hold no beliefs in Star-Trek fiction. I may agree with the rules of baseball, but I do not need to believe in baseball in order to understand the game; I may not even like the game! I may agree with any premise, without believing in it.

Knowledge: Knowledge comes from awareness of the world, or understanding gained through experience. Although people may believe in what they know, knowledge has no requirement for belief (beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements). Examples: I may have knowledge of a story, poem or song, but I have no need to believe it. I know the rules of many games, but I do not believe in games. I know the mathematics of calculus, but I do not believe in calculus. I have knowledge of information, but I do not believe in information. I have direct knowledge of my existence through sensations, thought, and awareness, but I do not believe I exist: I know I exist.

Information: Although many people believe the information they receive, information received does not require belief in it (again, beliefs have no bilateral symmetry requirements). Examples: the information from books, stories, science, theories, fiction, religion, etc., all represent communicated ideas, but one does not need to believe in any communication in order to utilize it.


Differences between thinking with beliefs and thinking without beliefs


The two charts above represent a visual abstract concept of the differences between the paths of belief and the path to knowledge. Both paths represent a form of thinking or mental activity. Note that the chart on the left shows a convergence point at the bottom where simple beliefs and thoughts coexist. At this level, they appear virtually the same with the only difference amounting to its semantic designation ("believe" can substitute for "think" and vise versa). However as each path progresses, they diverge; the path of belief progresses towards intransigence and the path of knowledge leads to factual knowledge. Each progresses as a matter of degree and each forms an independent path. For example, beliefs requires no external evidence whatsoever (examples: belief in ghosts, gods, astrology, etc.) The path of knowledge requires no reliance on beliefs (examples: the observation that the earth orbits the sun and airplanes fly, etc. appears regardless of whether you believe in them or not.) However, the path towards knowledge requires external verification (observation and testing) whereas the path of belief does not. The path towards workable knowledge (facts) must agree with nature if we wish to utilize it. The path of belief requires no agreement with nature at all (although it might coincide with it).

Unfortunately, the usual practice of thinking involves the combination of beliefs with theory and factual knowledge (see the right chart). Most people tend to believe in what they think of as facts and knowledge, including perhaps the most rational people of all-- scientists and philosophers. A hypothesis or a theory may lead a scientist to strongly believe their theories, the verification of test results may lead them to have faith in the results, and an established fact may lead some scientists to dogmatically hold to its verification (even if later evidence contradicts it). Thus even a scientist can attach beliefs to theories, faith to verification and dogma to facts. Although scientists rarely approach intransigence (although some do) , they usually believe in their data and theories and most philosophers believe in their philosophies. However, consider that every scientific fact can stand on the evidence alone. Nature occurs without human beliefs and so does reliable evidence. There simply exists no apparent necessity for attaching beliefs to knowledge.

Consider the following: regardless of how strongly one has attached beliefs to scientific facts, no matter how religious the disposition of a scientist, there has never appeared a single workable theory or scientific fact that required the concept of a god or superstitious idea. Not a single workable mathematical equation contains a symbol for a "creator." There occurs not the slightest evidence for ghosts in our machines or in our bodies. Even the most ardent non-believers can live their lives in complete accord with nature and live as long as the most fanatical believer. In spite of the temporary mental comfort that belief might bring, (as do drugs) then what purpose can belief serve in the establishment of useful knowledge about the world?

"Have you ever noticed.... Anybody going slower than you is an idiot, and anyone going faster than you is a maniac?"
--George Carlin

I find it interesting to observe the state of belief in people. They most always see the problems of fanatical belief above them on the chart, but they never accept the disbelief of those below them. Believers always retain just the right amount of belief, it seems, and they unconsciously put themselves in a kind of self-centered, subjective dogma. I contend that most of us do not own beliefs of every kind and, indeed, we disbelieve more than we believe. Just as some believers have fewer beliefs than others, non-believers simply sit at the bottom of the scale. If you can, temporarily, put yourself outside of your own beliefs, you can question why you dismiss the beliefs of others, while perhaps understanding why non-believers dismiss yours.


The mechanism of thought

Because thought and belief requires a mental process involving neural activity, this allows scientific investigation into its mechanism. Although the abstractions of belief sits at a hierarchical level above the neuron level, there obviously occurs a connection between neuron activity to mental thought and vise versa. Unfortunately we still have only minute knowledge about the working of the brain, let alone the complex process that produces thought. However, studies have shown that some forms of delusional thought involve problems with the neocortex. Indeed, one of the characteristics of schizophrenic delusion involves grandiose and religious thinking [3] Some have even suggested that schizophrenia involves beliefs and attitudes taught to them while young [4]

Also, in epilepsy, neurological storms can trigger feelings and thoughts divorced from external events. Although the neocortex and its sensory equipment gets its information from the external world, the limbic system takes its cues from within. The neuroscientist, Paul MacLean became fascinated with the "limbic storms" suffered by patients with temporal-lobe epilepsy. [5] MacLean reported:

"During seizures, they'd have this Eureka feeling all out of context-- feelings of revelation, that this is the truth, the absolute truth, and nothing but the truth."

"You know what bugs me most about the brain? It's that the limbic system, this primitive brain that can neither read nor write, provides us with the feeling of what is real, true, and important."

The worst forms of schizophrenia almost always involve extreme forms of delusional beliefs. They hear voices, act on impulse, think they hear the voice of God, Satan, or act out whatever belief myth they grew up with. Interestingly, it appears that only thinking animals develop schizophrenia. We have no other animal model for this disease for holding false beliefs and the perception of unreal things. [6] Schizophrenia appears to exist only in humans.

According to V.S. Ramachandran, patients with temporal lobe epilepsy may experience a variety of symptoms that include an obsessive preoccupation with religion and the intensified and narrowed emotional responses that appear characteristic of mystical experience.

I present epileptic storms and schizophrenia here because they represent examples of mental disorder that can result in beliefs pegged to their extreme limit. I trust that most people will recognize that these mental diseases can result in dangerous forms of thinking . If the extreme beliefs held by schizophrenics represents a danger and an undesirable trait, then at what point below this do we consider beliefs desirable?

Many believers seem to think that all humans believe and that belief represents a requirement for human life. We can show the falsity of this assumption by simply eliminating thought entirely. Not everyone can do this, especially schizophrenics, but for those that wish to, there exists methods for doing so.

At the opposite end of the spectrum, some people can completely stop their thoughts. And when someone can stop their thought process, beliefs cease to exist, at least temporarily. Ancient meditation or modern biofeedback practices show how to reduce or stop the semantic noise within our heads. During this practice, concentrating on a single idea or word (mantra) can reduce the thought level to a minimum. The final aim at eliminating this single thought results in a state of no-thought. While in such a state, all thoughts, ideas, and beliefs cease. Brain scans reveal that, indeed, the neocortex brain waves associated with thought stop at this extreme form of meditation.

I bring up meditation and delusion to show that there occurs some range of degree of intensity of belief between the two extremes.



The curve above represents a population of beliefs from zero (no beliefs) to one (extreme limit of beliefs), charted with only two data points (x). The degree of belief determines dispositions to hold an idea as absolute or true.The dotted line represents a guess since I have no data to support it. From my personal observations, most people do not fall at either end of the spectrum and I guess that most would fall somewhere between the two extremes. Perhaps it would appear as some kind of Bell curve as shown above.

Although schizophrenia describes an obvious dysfunctional disease that causes harm to themselves and possibly to others, many schizophrenic properties can coexist in the "normal" human thinking process without causing notice to people observing them. Delusional thinking usually accompanies schizophrenia. But note that delusions represent false beliefs, virtually the same as the conditions for faith. Faith has become acceptable mainly because powerful social institutions support it.

Symptoms of mental disease, of course, do not appear identical for everyone. Some people may have only one episode of schizophrenia in their lifetime. Others may have recurring episodes but lead relatively normal lives in between. Others may have severe symptoms for a lifetime. Indeed, many who we consider sane commit the most atrocious criminal acts without a diagnoses of insanity. Even legal acts such as war, inquisitions, and pogroms can cause harm to its believers as well as to others. Yet we do not diagnose these acts of belief as a mental disease because the very engine of belief puts them in the context of acceptability. Most societies do not abhor war; instead, they honor it because their belief-systems support the notion of solving problems through mass killing called war. If, instead, we approached belief supported violence the way we attempt to solve mental diseases, perhaps we might produce solutions to some of our cultural problems.

A question arises out of these extreme forms of thinking: If extreme beliefs represent a symptom or cause of mental disorder, then can a lack of belief produce a better, healthier, [or whatever desirable characteristic word you may want to use] way of socially interacting with people? At the other extreme end, that of meditation, one not only stops belief, but all forms of thought. This of course would result in a dangerous living condition if continued indefinitely , but only at the expense of the meditator. At worst the meditator might die for lack of food, but he could hardly harm anyone else. But what if one could learn how to think without beliefs? Might it not serve and advantage to make our thoughts more efficient?

Of course accidents will happen and tragedies will occur. Errors in our models of perception will no doubt always happen. But if we can reduce or eliminate the thoughts that constitute belief, would we not have fewer reasons to harm others through prejudice or violence? Without beliefs, our thoughts would follow the prevailing evidence instead of blocking them with unnecessary convictions.

Even if we cannot solve all mental diseases or prevent dangerous beliefs from forming, we might at least become aware of the mental processes that create beliefs and why they sometimes lead to intransigence. Although no one yet has a clear understanding of how schizophrenia originates, it appears that it may have some connection with genetics, brain damage, chemical imbalances or social upbringing. Fortunately treatments have become available for many mental diseases. For those who have mild cases of mental problems, education alone may redirect the neural path towards productive thinking. For others, drugs and therapy can help alleviate mental problems. Likewise, early education in critical thinking, identification of logical fallacies, and the mechanism of belief may alleviate many of our dangerous beliefs.



Imagination, fantasy and wonder
"Imagination is more important than knowledge."
-Albert Einstein
As humans, we have the remarkable ability to make things up and to pretend. Imagination and fantasy provides us with one of the most pleasurable ways to experience thoughts and gives us one of the fundamental requirements for the ability to create. Our imagination provides us with the mental capacity to express models in our heads and to act out scenarios of love, conquest, gamesmanship and adventure. I can't imagine any new invention, art, or literature deriving without its author engaging in the pleasure of a fantasy. The feeling of wonder about things in the world and the mysteries of the universe fills us with imagination and speculation. Although Einstein put imagination above knowledge (something I don't necessarily agree with), it certainly serves a very useful function.

Fantasies and imaginations, of course require no belief in them. They provide us a way to model and hypothesis non-actual events that may eventually lead to knowledge of actual things or perhaps even a novel invention. Fantasy coupled with ideas about actual events can lead to great insights about future events. Many a science fiction story, for example, has inspired scientists to construct hypothesis that lead to verifiable experiment and the invention of useful machines. Even fantasy by itself provides an enjoyable way of expressing thoughts. But if an individual begins to believe in his own fantasy, or worse, has faith in it, then usually only disappointment or tragedies result.


I don't believe the sun will rise tomorrow, but I predict it will

Disbelieving does not mean thinking something may not happen. The absence of belief does not prevent one from predicting the event. It may seem fatuous not to believe the sun will not appear the next day. However, as a limited human being, I maintain no absolute certainty that a sunrise will occur. At best. I can only make a prediction based on past experience. Since I have experienced daylight every day of my life, and know of no human who hasn't, I have little evidence that a sunrise will not occur tomorrow. Therefore I can make a prediction based on past experience that a sunrise will appear extremely likely to occur the next day. Note that I do not require believing to do this, only observation, experience, and good guessing. Prediction based on experience, in this case, replaces belief. But note that my prediction may prove wrong, regardless of how remote the chances. We have evidence that supernovas exist in the universe that can destroy local solar systems. If, indeed, such an event occurred in our part of the galaxy, our sun could possibly get absorbed, along with the earth and all humans on it. So although there exists a very remote chance that the sun will not appear, I can at least predict with great (but imperfect) accuracy that I will see sunlight the next day.

By replacing belief with predictive thought, one can eliminate the need for belief, yet still maintain an outlook on life and make useful predictions.


Owning no beliefs does not result in nihilism

To characterize no beliefs as nihilist only creates a straw man. Of course a nihilist might very well claim to abandon knowledge of existence but usually it comes in the form of a belief-- one who believes that nothing exists or one who believes that no one can know anything. Nothing I have written rejects the notion of existence or knowledge whether it comes from metaphysical, political or ethical thought. Abandoning beliefs does not prevent one from reality, morality or sociality. On the contrary, I submit that eliminating ownership of beliefs tends to enhance the knowledge of things by the very act of eliminating the very obstruction which prevents us from knowing how things work in the universe. The elimination of beliefs as I describe it illustrates the very antithesis of nihilism. The problems that derive from beliefs prevent us from knowledge of existence, morality and workable political systems.

Ironically many believers who accuse others of nihilism follow a similar path of nihilism by denying reality in favor of superstitious beliefs. How in the world can one know about reality when one believes in a supernatural force which (according to Christian philosophers) remains entirely separated from the world, and in principle, no one can know?

So if you think (or believe) that I submit to a form of nihilism, then you will have abandoned a main premise and put yourself at a personal disadvantage by ignoring or denying an idea (a valid and very workable idea in my opinion).



Summary

Beliefs and faiths represent a type of mental activity that produces an unnecessary and dangerous false sense of trust and wrongful information. Faith rarely agrees with the world around us. History has shown that beliefs and faith, of the most intransigent kind, have served as the trigger for tragic violence and destruction and sustained the ignorance of people. Replacing beliefs with predictive thoughts based on experience and evidence provide a means to eliminate intransigence and dangerous superstitious thought.

Beliefs and faiths do not establish "truths" or facts. It does not matter how many people believe or for how many centuries they have believed it. It does not matter how reverent or important people think of them, if it does not agree with evidence, then it simply cannot have any validity to the outside world. All things we know about the world, we can express without referring to a belief. Even at its most benign level, beliefs can act as barriers to further understanding.

I present a very simple observation at two the extremes of ignorance and knowledge: If you don't know about something and you submit it to nothing but belief, it will prove false; if you know about something, then you don't need to believe it, because you know it. Between ignorance and knowledge you have the uncertainties about the world, and the best way to handle uncertainties involves thinking in terms of probabilities. So what use does belief have?

Instead of beliefs, we can utilize hypothesis, theory, and models to make predictions about things in the world. In its semantic form, we can replace "belief" words with "thinking" words which better describes the formation of our ideas. We can use our imaginations to create new hypothesis towards desired goals. The wonder of the universe gives us a powerful feeling of inquisitiveness. Certainly we will fail sometimes, but thinking without belief allows us to correct our mistakes without submitting our ideas to years or centuries of traditional time consuming barriers. Theory coupled with imagination can yield inventive thoughts and points of views. By further understanding our language and eliminating unworkable essence words, we can communicate without resorting to preconceived ideas based on past beliefs. Our feeling of wonder about the universe provides us the fuel for exploration; how much more magnificent the results from useful thoughts than ones based on faith.


Think instead of believe.


:smile:


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Offlinethe_phoenix
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911341 - 03/13/05 02:27 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

@egghead1, good point, I should have been more clear. My beliefs are an open system, not a closed one. My experience of the Now, which is constantly changing, is primary, and my beliefs secondary and contingent upon it. So the experience that I base my understand/beliefs on, is in constant flux.


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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911355 - 03/13/05 02:30 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Swami said:
One's model for reality should be based on our experiences, but our starting point is always based on someone else's beliefs. It is unavoidable.

Yes, one life is too short to completely rediscover and reinvent everything that was handed-down, so faith and belief must be utilized AS A STARTING POINT only.

However, nothing new is ever learned without questioning. Progress requires brave minds that do not accept the status quo in any field.



:shocked:

The starting point is most definitely something I arrive at on my own, not what someone gives me. Some people spend their whole lives searching for this starting point. Once it's found, then you can really start living.


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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3911371 - 03/13/05 02:35 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Your belief system still obscures the immediate experience because its based on past experiences that are being constantly updated from the present. If your present experiences are being judged and based on previous information there is never much space for the present 'Now' to fully manifest. Your past experience obscures the present immediate state.


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All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


Edited by egghead1 (03/13/05 02:48 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: Swami]
    #3911408 - 03/13/05 02:42 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

?Behold thee of the moment, look at what you believe.?
-Unknown :P


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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: egghead1]
    #3911436 - 03/13/05 02:49 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

egghead1 said:
Your belief system still obscures the immediate experience because its based on past experiences that are being constantly updated from the present. If your present experiences are being judged and based on previous information there is never much space for the present 'Now' to fully manifest. Your past experience obscures the present immediate state.


I try not to let it, but I never considered it quite from that perspective. Thanks for the insight. :smile:


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3911491 - 03/13/05 03:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

Hey!!! I said that!!! That is my brilliance you are commenting on!!!


--------------------
"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: the_phoenix]
    #3911500 - 03/13/05 03:03 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

No probs :wink:

This insight was based on my own experience today of being caught up in a belief system based on past experience, im glad i could share...... :heart:


Edited by egghead1 (03/13/05 03:16 PM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: SkorpivoMusterion]
    #3911710 - 03/13/05 04:01 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

should this be to skorpio or to jim walker?

anyway I really like the vigor of the analysis, especially with the smooth curves
and epilepsy provides a terrific focussed lens onto the reality of brain in the whole scheme of things.

due to neural stimulation of the cortex by aggravation of a scarred section of the brain with what seems to be a capacitance like discharge, points of strong persisting excitation establish "abnormal" interference that can cue up apparently random - (at least un-related to the cues) gestalts including body memory and the whole eureka arrival as if apprehending smooth curves of realization or as if epiphany had been attained in a more "linear" fashion.

It is very important to understand that the joyous feelings and the sense of smooth connectedness of a series of related (or unrelated) ideas are also basically just mental content which can be aroused by devout immersion, epilepsy, entheogens and even acupuncture.

It is at times like these that one might like to adopt any orphans who were integral to the experience, or even just in the vicinity.

epiphany passes so quickly, and the voidness in its wake can drive any god fearing soul into the arms of the next helpful zealot.

I think deja vu works a bit like the epilepsy too, but it definitely also involves buffering a thick stack of moments.


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Offlineegghead1
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: redgreenvines]
    #3911743 - 03/13/05 04:07 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

The trick is to keep your buffer empty, then it doesn't interfere with the immediate moment.


--------------------
All you need is Love! Really thats it! Infinite Unconditional Love! Just develop that and all else will fall into place perfectly!


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Adopting Beliefs [Re: egghead1]
    #3911770 - 03/13/05 04:14 PM (12 years, 4 months ago)

sure, try. it is a good direction.
i am content to watch it in its element, 2-20 slices of time and I'm OK; more than that and it is too much. less and it is disconnected.


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