Quote:

The unity of theory and practice is ironically realized in the optical illusion of all utopias: in uncollapsed and totalizing capitalism no one seems able to see "beyond". Consequently the notion of alternative appears irrational.

---

airclay said:

goddamn urban dictionary can be so good sometimes

Quote:

A libertarian is someone who wants to take America back to the way it was run in the 1800s, regardless of how much the world has changed since then. Libertarians also have mean hard-ons for unregulated capitalism, believing that the "Invisible Hand" will erase poverty and create a utopia instead of what ACTUALLY happens when you let companies do whatever they want, which is:

-Children working in factories and mines
-Corporate monopolies
-Workplaces where death is likely
-Low, low wages
-Shit in your food (Read Upton Sinclair's "The Jungle")
-Even more extreme corporate corruption and political pawns than we have now.
-Getting the living fuck stomped out of you by company-hired goons for trying to organize a union (Battle of the Overpass)

---

Quote:

One who follows a Utopian political ideology which claims to support individual freedoms in all areas socially and economically. Ironically, while they advocate "small" government, (i.e. reduction of government in all areas except those which protect the domination of the capitalist class) if the libertarian ideology were to actually be put into effect, it would more than likely lead to an extremely oppressive society, dominated even more than now, by a wealthy few. Because of this, libertarianism can be described as a form of corporatism in disguise. Libertarianism is popular among rebellious high schoolers who in actuality know little of politics or the real world.
"The mistake of the libertarian ideology is that it fails to recognize that big business is just as oppressive as big government."

---

Quote:

In North America, the term libertarian means what everywhere else is called a Classical Liberal. This is a person who essentially pushes for the rights of big business at any cost. The Libertarian party was, not surprisingly, started by the billionaire Koch brothers. Two key unspoken tenets of North American libertarianism: companies should never be regulated because the Little Guy must fend for himself, and companies should be free to pollute at will. This is a true and accurate description of North American libertarians attitudes although they always try to appear virtuous and intellectual. They are neither. In their effort to appear intelligent, libertarians is argue that in a free market (which has never existed) everything is fair. Not so. In any country that doesn't protect the little guy, big companies can pummel them into submission, particularly in the courts but also when the little guy is a shareholder or employee or a voter. Corporations power lets them get away with almost anything. Even economist Adam Smith would have rejected corporatism, because he believed companies should always be small.

---

Quote:

1. Someone who thinks Somalia is a nice place to live.
2. One who thinks Ayn Rand is a good writer and isn't crazy.
3. Delves into the archives of history to base an ideology off of Industrial Age Europe in much the same way conservatives do medieval England.
4. One who thinks the free market should decide whether or not it's okay to force your children to work in African mines doing backbreaking labor, inhaling toxic fumes and whatnot for eight cents an hour.

---

---

Shins said:

airclay said:

I guess that can be defined as the freedom to exploit others because you own things (capital, businesses, property, etc)

---

Voluntary transaction is not exploitation.

---

Is working for a shitty wage to avoid starvation voluntary? 

airclay said:

If history is to be taken into account, then yes capitalism is evil. There are no examples of it's existence that it hasn't been perverted or corrupted.

---

BlackWidow said:

qman said:

airclay said:

If history is to be taken into account, then yes capitalism is evil. There are no examples of it's existence that it hasn't been perverted or corrupted.

---

Humans end up corrupting every social structure.

---

Yup. He's pretending that governments don't become corrupt either. Hint: they both can

---

BlackWidow said:

airclay said:

yeah falcon, you got up and choose to go to that job. you're free to get a better wage at another job, wait, no one's offering higher wages cause there are no laws requiring them to do so. well now falcon I guess you can choose to live in a van down by the river. ah, freedom based on money.

---

With your logic, why are any jobs over minimum wage? Corporations don't have to pay above minimum wage, yet they still do. I wonder why?

---

airclay said:

If history is to be taken into account, then yes capitalism is evil. There are no examples of it's existence that it hasn't been perverted or corrupted.

---

airclay said:

If history is to be taken into account, then yes capitalism is evil. There are no examples of it's existence that it hasn't been perverted or corrupted.

---

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Shins said:

airclay said:

I guess that can be defined as the freedom to exploit others because you own things (capital, businesses, property, etc)

---

Voluntary transaction is not exploitation.

---

Is working for a shitty wage to avoid starvation voluntary? 

---

airclay said:

yeah falcon, you got up and choose to go to that job. you're free to get a better wage at another job, wait, no one's offering higher wages cause there are no laws requiring them to do so. well now falcon I guess you can choose to live in a van down by the river. ah, freedom based on money.

---

Shins said:

airclay said:

If history is to be taken into account, then yes capitalism is evil. There are no examples of it's existence that it hasn't been perverted or corrupted.

---

By socialism

---

Now there's a compelling argument! 

Shins said:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Is working for a shitty wage to avoid starvation voluntary? 

---

Of course it is.

---

Is it?  What's the alternative?

Shins said:

To those of us with skills in demand, we have the power over our wages, employers compete for us because we are USEFUL.

---

No you don't.  You'll get whatever the going rate is for your skill, plus or minus a small amount for experience and expertise.

Shins said:

airclay said:

yeah falcon, you got up and choose to go to that job. you're free to get a better wage at another job, wait, no one's offering higher wages cause there are no laws requiring them to do so. well now falcon I guess you can choose to live in a van down by the river. ah, freedom based on money.

---

No one is offering higher wages because you're not useful, not because there are no laws.

To those of us with skills in demand, we have the power over our wages, employers compete for us because we are USEFUL.

---