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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Civilization
    #2283821 - 01/29/04 02:07 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"When we see an ancient society willing and able to devote considerable wealth for seemingly useless tasks, we would admire its people and call them civilized. The more wasteful they are, the greater their civilization looms in our eyes."--K.C. Chang, famous archaeologist


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
illusion

Registered: 04/18/02
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2284021 - 01/29/04 03:04 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

that's true, but what's interesting is that the pyramids, and other stone buildings of the ancients will long outlast our towers of glass and steel


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2284032 - 01/29/04 03:06 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

you mean like building pyramids and great cities of stone? Ya, its the common ego showing in all past rulers.

Hey why not build a huge pyramid with 1000's of slaves taking many years and costing many lives and time and money LOOK what we have done! Now, lets stare at the great triangle of representative power and shutter inf ear of the man who built it.... good tactic if u ask me, wasteful nonethe less


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OfflineShroomerious
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Re: Civilization [Re: infidelGOD]
    #2284091 - 01/29/04 03:26 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

infidelGOD said:
that's true, but what's interesting is that the pyramids, and other stone buildings of the ancients will long outlast our towers of glass and steel




Maybe, but that is something we don't know yet. We'll have to wait many many years to be sure about that. Also, when the pyramids were build, people weren't as advanced as now in their business, nowdays we try to make a building not only strong like they might have wanted in the pyramids case, but also efficient. That, I think, is the magic word.


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Civilization [Re: Shroomerious]
    #2284149 - 01/29/04 03:44 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

The pyramids were built to a degree of precision that could not be duplicated today. Think about THAT!


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Civilization [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2284206 - 01/29/04 04:01 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"The pyramids were built to a degree of precision that could not be duplicated today"


are you kidding me? i guarantee you scientists and artisans and builders could duplicate the pyramids, its just be hard.


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285329 - 01/29/04 10:37 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Seemingly useless"? "Efficient" [Shroomerious]? What a nonsense!

Don't you think that we judge this according to our own culturally determined value-system? Can we see the real spiritual impact and efficiency of the pyramids valid in that ancient cultural context? I don't think so? And how would the ancient egyptians have judged the "efficiency" and "usefulness" of our great cultural achievements, if they had judged according to their culturally determined value-system? Would they have appreciated our efforts to speed up our lives, to exploit the Earth, to avert our focus from spiritual to material, or to simplify our social behaviour to the level of animals? Efficient. Useful. In what?! That's not an absolute judgement.

This thread just smells of cultural chauvinism.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285353 - 01/29/04 10:48 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Great quote! Thank you for sharing it. I think it's important to interpret this quote as being critical of our *own* civilization as well as those of the past. That is what it implies. Civilization is an incredibly wasteful joke, a joke that was never really funny.

Also Shroomerious, our "efficiency" is killing the Earth. Our notion that the quicker and more easily we can turn raw "resources" into trashy novelty objects, the better life will be, is so utterly ridiculous I don't understand how we all still buy into such a grand lie.


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
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Re: Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2285402 - 01/29/04 11:05 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

trouble is, it isnt efficient. I hate living in this city  :shake:


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What?


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Civilization [Re: NiamhNyx]
    #2285420 - 01/29/04 11:11 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe you're right, NiamhNyx, and that's what K.C.Chang meant by saying that. Still, I think, that the usefulness of any cultural achievement can only me measured according to a certain cultural value system. According to our cultural main-stream value system, the greatest achievements of our culture have to be considered "useful". Or is there perhaps a value system that stands above all different cultures? What do you think?


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OfflineSpecialEd
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Re: Civilization [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2285520 - 01/29/04 11:41 PM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Maybe.

I read a report that stated the spacing between each block was so uniform for such a small dimension that it would be impossible to duplicate if the pyramids were built by today's construction method.

It's just one of those things to  :syringe: :pill: :bong: :spliff: :stash: ponder about. :stoned:


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Invisible2Experimental
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Re: Civilization [Re: SpecialEd]
    #2285645 - 01/30/04 12:11 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"I read a report that stated the spacing between each block was so uniform for such a small dimension"
please leaborate on this, I dont understand what it means, and how it proves your point


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Civilization [Re: 2Experimental]
    #2285683 - 01/30/04 12:24 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

2Experimental, come on...! How could those scientists and engineers know, what is a duplicate, and what is not? The pyramids may easily have specifications which we have not the slightest idea about. We don't know the what astrological aspects to be considered, we do not know what ritual aspects to consider, and we don't know what possible other aspects to consider. A duplicate is not a real duplicate, if not all the aspects are considered, which attribute to its real functionality and significance.

Give a computer to an iron-age celtic craftsman, and he'll say: Oh, I can duplicate that! It's just a metal box, that says "bang" when I hit it.

Duplicate it... Ridiculous...


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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: Civilization [Re: Siphersh]
    #2285890 - 01/30/04 01:51 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

Are you saying the reason we can?t duplicate a pyramid is becuase we don?t have a pharoah to specify which stars the pyramid needs to align with? Perhaps there are certain stones that are layed first and given an ancient prayer... or maybe there is a special celebration held before the apex stone is put into place?
I?m sorry if there are spiritual specifications that would have to be ignored during the duplications process, but that does not prove modern science couldn?t build a pyramid; a giant geometric shape of rock.
What about Spaceship Earth? I think that qualifies as a more advanced geometrically themed building. When I was visiting Epcot center I was able to see this building first hand.




The geodesic dome is the strongest and most economical structure ever designed. It?s made up of triangles and is probably one of the only structures that gets stronger the bigger it gets. Speaking of structural integrity of geomertical themed structures... lets take a look at the 4th tallest pyramid.



Looks kinda poopy if you ask me. The reason is that they only realized they were building at to steep an angle when they were half finished. The result is hardly a model for Egyptian architecture.

Sorry for getting off topic... on unduplicatable dimnesions; if you can accept the creation of a massive, yet geometrically precise, stone structure as a technological marvel and an example of human accomplishment (which is what the pyramids really represent) than you can surely overlook the omitance of certain religious ceremonies and non-psyical specification.


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OfflineNiamhNyx
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2285992 - 01/30/04 02:37 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

"Civilization originates in conquest abroad and repression at home." -Stanley Diamond


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OfflineSiphersh
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Re: Civilization [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2286449 - 01/30/04 09:12 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

TheShroomHermit, an ancient egyptian pyramid is not simply a giant geometric shape of rock. Just like a computer is not just a metal box that says "bang" when you hit it. Yes, we could duplicate a pyramid, nearly as well as an iron-age craftsman can duplicate a computer. He _can_ create a metal box, that says "bang" when you hit it - let's assume this is the only aspect of the computer he can understand as crucial. But _can_ we really build a pyramid, even if only our limited understanding of its essential characteristics are considered? It's made of solid rock, you know. It takes a lot of money to manage the construction. Which means that we _could_ build a structural duplicate of a pyramid _if_ we could fund it: but here comes another cultural limitation of ours: we are extremely bad at funding projects which are neither politically, nor monetarily, nor culturally _profitable_. We _could_, but we _can not_ duplicate a pyramid, even structurally. And "we could if..." does not count. The ancient egyptians "could have" travelled to the Moon, _if_ they had the technology and resources. "Could ... if.." does not count here.

Spaceship Earth? Is the structure on the picture? I've never heard of it before. Very impressive structure. We are technologically the most advanced culture in history, if the material efficiency and amount of output is considered. No doubt about it.

You say that "if you can accept the creation of a massive, yet geogeometrically precise, stone structure as a technological marvel and an example of human accomplishment (which is what the pyramids really represent) than you can surely overlook the omitance of certain religious ceremonies and non-psyical specification."

Yes, that is a natural consequence of cultrocentricism, cultural autocentricism, so to say, which is not a bad thing in itself: we are achieving special performance in certain fields, because we focus on these fields, and therefore we easily "overlook" other cultural aspects of achievement. That's not bad in itself. But if this self-centeredness in value system, judgement and focus of mind goes that far, that we simply say "we could duplicate a pyramid", taking for granted that only those aspects of duplication are considered, that our culture is best in in history, that's more than self-centeredness: that's narrow-mindedness and autocracy of judgement.


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Invisiblekaiowas
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Re: Civilization [Re: silversoul7]
    #2286626 - 01/30/04 10:55 AM (13 years, 2 months ago)

so what does one mean by useless?? useless to whom?? society at large?? ok, well what may be useful to me may not be useful to you. a lot of people consider money useful, I think it does more bad than good, and therefore I consider it a waste. people who cut down the trees find a different use of them than I do. I appreciate them for what they look like and what they provided for me, either in fruit or in oxygen. they see paper, pencils, and firewood. so which choice out of these is the best for the trees? oh that's right we don't even look at that perspective, just at our own. I'm not saying a tree has a perspective(or does it?), but I am saying that we aren't really thinking "about" it. it is alive after all, jsut as much right to be here as we do IMHO.


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Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.---senior doobie


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