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OfflineKremlin
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depressing
    #2248604 - 01/17/04 05:06 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

so i was having many a philosophical conversation last night over many a brew....and in my sleep deprived state 5 minutes ago, i returned to a chain of thought from when i was quite young.

I would lie in bed, crying, because i would think of death. I die, I cease to exist...do we ever really stop to fathom the implications of that? I will not reincarnate into another being, I will just never be, ever again.

Our highly developed brains...what a curse. Other animals dont think about things, they just live, eat, and die. We, on the otherhand, have the ability to comprehend our own insignifigance and mortality....what a fucking sick joke.

It leaves me in this pit of despair...People say just enjoy your life, well doesnt it seem kind of pointless? All of earths pleasures shrink to nothing when eternal nonexistence comes into play..

Thoughts, anyone?
Maybe you can help me take a more positive stance here

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleTHE KRAT BARON
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248626 - 01/17/04 05:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

a


--------------------
m00nshine is currently vacationing in Maui. Rumor has it he got rolled by drunken natives and is currently prostituting himself in order to pay for airfare back to the mainland but he's having trouble juggling a hairon addiction. He won't be back for a long while.


Edited by matt (08/31/07 08:14 PM)


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248631 - 01/17/04 05:14 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well the point is to get a discussion going

seeing other peoples views always helps

And yes, of course ive heard of religion, but i think thats just a way of making the world seem nicer...i dont like diluting myself.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleinfidelGOD
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248651 - 01/17/04 05:24 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

wow that IS depressing...

question:
what's the difference between
finding meaning in life
and creating meaning in life?


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OfflineFrog
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248662 - 01/17/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Kremlin said:
I would lie in bed, crying, because i would think of death. I die, I cease to exist...do we ever really stop to fathom the implications of that? I will not reincarnate into another being, I will just never be, ever again.




I don't believe we don't reincarnate, and even if we don't reincarnate, we will live eternity as the spirits that we really are. Read Edgar Cayce, who was one of the most respected psychics of our time. Just go to the library and pull some of his books.

Quote:

Our highly developed brains...what a curse. Other animals dont think about things, they just live, eat, and die. We, on the otherhand, have the ability to comprehend our own insignifigance and mortality....what a fucking sick joke.




We are not insignificant. How many billions of us have lived, yet look at how unique we each are, given there are so many of us?

Quote:

It leaves me in this pit of despair...People say just enjoy your life, well doesnt it seem kind of pointless? All of earths pleasures shrink to nothing when eternal nonexistence comes into play..




It's not pointless because we are here for a reason, even if we don't totally know the reason.

*ducking*

And if we are here for a reason, for a job to do, we are also here to enjoy our pleasures.

But everything I say hinges on faith, faith in the existence of a higher power. You have to find that yourself.

Do this one thing, even if you don't believe in a higher power: Talk to God and pray for wisdom and for answers to your questions, and see if you get some answers. Keep your eyes open, though. Sometimes answers come from unlikely sources.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


Edited by Frog (01/17/04 05:31 PM)


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248672 - 01/17/04 05:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I played that self-same mind-game for decades and this is my curent stance:

Does this thought process aid you IN ANY WAY or does it detract from what life you do have? If it is helpful then continue; if not drop it! It really is that simple.

Drink every drop of life as fully as possible. Be in awe when you look into your girlfriend's eyes. Feel the wonder when you gaze at the stars or listen to a symphony or taste a strawberry or...


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Frog]
    #2248685 - 01/17/04 05:36 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the replies

Infidel:
The problem i see, is that what meaning can i possibly make? I am the human that is attached to his existence, falling prey to ego. It just leaves me with this haunting feeling to know that when i die, thats IT for me. Regardless of whether or not i find pleasure in this life...thats not the part im focusing on.

Frog:
I can see what you are saying, however, you are correct, this does require some sort of faith. I think the whole "we are here for a reason" line of thought is just too happy. This world doesnt work that way.

Mono no aware, "the sorrow of things", a feeling when you understand the truth of death and life, see the tragedy and the beauty.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Swami]
    #2248688 - 01/17/04 05:37 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Swami i totally agree,

however some days you just get caught in thought loops, and it helps if you can work through it a bit, or just have a good discussion about it. We all have our time with this problem, we ruminate and move on... i just happen to be ruminating currently

I'm a musician, and i can get lost in music, or the beauty of my surroundings...but today, i had to get out of bed because i was returning to that place i visited so often before as a child...was not happy.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineFrog
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248707 - 01/17/04 05:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I can see what you are saying, however, you are correct, this does require some sort of faith. I think the whole "we are here for a reason" line of thought is just too happy. This world doesnt work that way.

Mono no aware, "the sorrow of things", a feeling when you understand the truth of death and life, see the tragedy and the beauty.





You can be happy even though you understand the truth of death and life, and you can be happy in the face of tragedy. If you don't understand death, you can't understand life.

In fact, I think that it's being able to understand the truth of death, and understanding why tragedy occurs, that you can see the beauty in life.

The quote from American Beauty comes to mind, from the beginning and end of the movie, where the actors talk about life being so beautiful, it hurts.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Frog]
    #2248715 - 01/17/04 05:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's very true Frog, very true -- i guess thats my next step in the progression of things, eh :smile:

I'm takin a good class right now on Death & Immortality that will hopefully help me to appreciate death more.  He stated on the first day that many students have walked away from that class not fearing death anymore.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineFrog
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248742 - 01/17/04 05:55 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I used to fear death, and I used to have panic attacks. I don't fear dying any more, and I haven't had a panic attack in a few years.

I suppose I'm not looking forward to the physical process of dying. *shudders* But I believe there is something after death, and that we don't end with our physical death.

I realize that we don't have to fear death if we understand that we continue on after death, just differently.

Physical death is just a momentary glitch in the road that we all have to go through, but we still go on.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Frog]
    #2248756 - 01/17/04 05:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That's a good view,

i wish i was at a point in my life where i could say the same, but i really cant...but ive got alot of living and growing up to do still.  It's only my Junior year in college.

Hopefully that day will come for me soon :smile:

I fear the process the most, because that could just be absolutely horrific.  But the nonexistence isnt comforting either.  I just get this hollow feeling in my chest, and its terrifying.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248785 - 01/17/04 06:08 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Kremlin, I want to applaud you for being one of the few people willing to just cut loose and tell the truth about something so important as your own existence and refusing to lie to and placate yourself. The thing about self awareness is just as you've put it...with awareness of our life must come the awareness of our impending death.

This is precisely the spark that first gave rise to the mass delusions of religion and "meaning" to life. Imagine a creature that is for the first time smart enough to realize that it will someday cease to be, but this creature knows nothing of the way the world works. It doesn't know anything about the causes of death and disease or the aging process. Imagine how terrifying that would be. To just sit around and never have an explanation for anything. This is where religion comes in.

Prior to science, religion was, to steal a phrase from Carl Sagan, a candle in the dark. It provided meaning and purpose and explained things. Most importantly, it introduced the idea of the afterlife, because death can be simply to tough a concept to accept.

I struggled with this same problem for quite a while, and the answer I came up with is to trust in science. I plan on having my head vitrified when I die. I take a lot of flack for that. People always tell me I'll just be ripped off, as if I could possibly give a shit about money if I'm dead to begin with, and that even if the technology to revive and cure people is developed, that there will be no room for everyone. The only answer I can give in return is that at least this way, there's the possibility of being brough back, unlike blind stubborn faith in a fairytale. This way, I can place my hope in something real.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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OfflineFrog
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Re: depressing [Re: Shizpow]
    #2248795 - 01/17/04 06:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I agree with you, shizpow, on applauding Kremlin.

Kremlin, it wasn't until a few years ago that I finally started seeking answers to life. You've got a jump on me, and yes, you've plenty of time to figure out the answers.

I think figuring out the answers is what makes life so much fun for me right now.


--------------------
The day will come when, after harnessing the ether, the winds, the tides, gravitation, we shall harness for God the energies of love. And, on that day, for the second time in the history of the world, man will have discovered fire.  -Teilard


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Shizpow]
    #2248807 - 01/17/04 06:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

That is actually the best answer ive ever heard, made me laugh :smile:

5 shrooms!

But on a more serious note,
THat is the exact point of view i have, i see religion as a pill to make life better, not as truth...and i need truth, as much as it may hurt or scare me, id rather know than not know...i do not like ignorance, i dont want false bliss.

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248820 - 01/17/04 06:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Well i kind of have my major to thank for that one

When you are learning about the brain (neuroscience), you cant help but start to ask alot of questions.

5 to both of you for helpin with a good discussion :smile:

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248850 - 01/17/04 06:29 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Death is a part of the endless cycle of life.

In the fall, the leaves die and return to the earth, which nourishes the tree which grows more leaves in the spring.

Water, departs from the clouds, falling from the sky and returning to the earth and streams and oceans. Evaporation sucks its soul back into the clouds until it gathers to fall again.

All of natural existence is an endless cycle of life and death. This is evolution in progress, this is the reality of the physical realms. When you enter a material body, you are fully aware of the pains you will have to endure.. and that this incarnation is a limited time thing. This too shall pass, and the pain creates growth, experience, and wisdom.

It is even said that thoughts of death are natural and healthy, and that when we do so, we are metaphorically "killing" an aspect of ourselves.. an old personality trait perhaps.. perhaps a bad habit..

The fact that you are in fact, alive and conscious, does not negate the idea that upon death your consciousness ceases to exist. There is no evidence to support such a claim, but the evidence of natural existence suggests that energy cannot be destroyed, only transformed into a different form. When you die, YOU leave your physical body and brain behind. Some people argue that you can't live without the brain. Well you can't, not in the physical world.

But look around you at the life you live in, see the ebb and flow of life. This is a learning experience, that's why we are here.. to live, experience and DIE. But what's the point of all the learning if consciousness ceases to exist after one short incarnation? Water doesn't disappear off the face of the earth. If you want to cease to exist that is your perogitave, but me, I'm going to continue on.

Such is the paradox of creation and destruction. An endless and perpetual cycle, in perfect balance. We are all on separate paths of evolution, but our destination is the same. Thus, we must help each other along the way, helping others where we have been, and receiving help from those who have been there.
You can live in love or fear. Each have their merits. I choose love.

Death is the ultimate ego loss.
But don't worry about it until you get there. Live your life. You will know what to do.


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InvisibleSkorpivoMusterion
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Re: depressing [Re: Kremlin]
    #2248861 - 01/17/04 06:32 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nobody ever really 'dies'. The end of one thing is ALWAYS the beginning of another thing. Including "Death".


--------------------
Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.


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OfflineKremlin
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Re: depressing [Re: Shroomism]
    #2248931 - 01/17/04 06:56 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
and flow of life. This is a learning experience, that's why we are here.. to live, experience and DIE. But what's the point of all the learning if consciousness ceases to exist after one short incarnation?




I like what you said, but this struck me. There doesnt have to be a point to anything that happens, it just is. I think that is falling into the human trap of needing to create meaning out of everything for the sake of ourselves (not to criticize, but to point out the differences in views).

also,

i said above that i thought religions, etc was just a form of dilusion, which i do believe...but that casts a very negative light which i dont want to throw out there. Some people need/want it, and it works for them, and im happy for them. It just doesnt work for me.

I really enjoyed your point about matter not being destroyed, but does that really hold up here? Our bodies stay whole, the only thing that ceases is the connective engery inside...and it doesnt just dissapear, it changes forms...because it feeds off of ions in the body, that change into energy, that then change again. (or at least is my understanding thus far)

--Kremlin


--------------------
"Human suffering has been caused because all too many of us cannot grasp that words are only tools for our use, and that the mere presence of a word in the dictionary does not mean it necessarily refers to something definitive in the real world"
--Richard Dawkins, "The Selfish Gene"

"It is the mind which creates the world about us, and even though we stand side by side in the same meadow, my eyes will never see what is beheld by yours."
-George Gissing

"Without a firm idea of himself and the purpose of his life, man cannot live, and would sooner destroy himself than remain on earth, even if he was surrounded by bread."
--Fyodor Dostoevsky


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OfflineShizpow
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Re: depressing [Re: Shroomism]
    #2248954 - 01/17/04 07:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Shroomism: "But what's the point of all the learning if consciousness ceases to exist after one short incarnation?"

That's the essence of it right there. There is no point to life. It's magnificent and I love it, but it is its own thing, and once its done, its done. Why infuse it with meaning? Just live it and love it, but come to terms with the fact that it, like all things, must end.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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