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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21643808 -

Being a political criticism leader is almost a crime, the FBI has been up the ass of basically any group trying to change the culture and attitudes of the popular culture (MLK, John Lennon ect ect)  Putting them under surveillance, extorting them ect ect.

I don't mean that in a conspiracy theory sort of way, I mean that in a matter of fact plain as day sort of way.


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L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21643954 -

Enlil said:
It's good to see that you and Woof agree that society will be a much better place when people are locked up for criticizing politicians too much.


I seriously can't believe that this conversation has come this far without either of you realizing how truly oppressive your proposed system would be.



Not for criticizing. For spending too much money to criticize. Alex Jones can still make his stupid ass internet show, or w/e. Again, this isn't a ban on speech, its a limitation of personal expenditures. It's leveling the playing field so that more speech is heard. More than just the Koch brothers.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 2
    #21644106 -

It's a limitation on speech, and ultimately, jailing people for spending too much money on speech is jailing people for speech.  You can play semantics all you want, but that's the bottom line.  People will go to jail because they criticize the wrong people too much.

Those in power will use their power to serve themselves.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21644241 -

Bigbadwooof said:
Enlil said:
It's good to see that you and Woof agree that society will be a much better place when people are locked up for criticizing politicians too much.


I seriously can't believe that this conversation has come this far without either of you realizing how truly oppressive your proposed system would be.


Not for criticizing. For spending too much money to criticize. Alex Jones can still make his stupid ass internet show, or w/e. Again, this isn't a ban on speech, its a limitation of personal expenditures. It's leveling the playing field so that more speech is heard. More than just the Koch brothers.


EXACTLY.

Enlil said:
It's a limitation on speech, and ultimately, jailing people for spending too much money on speech is jailing people for speech.  You can play semantics all you want, but that's the bottom line.  People will go to jail because they criticize the wrong people too much.


You're criticizing wooof for word games when all's he's done is correct your own word games?  Once again, this is NOT about jailing people for speech.  Rush Limbaugh and Bill Maher are perfectly free to criticize politicians all they want, in front of an audience of millions of people, so you're just plain lying.

This is about preventing people from corrupting our Government by spending too much money in return for political favors, and influencing public opinion in a way that people without money can't.

As you've already noted, the rich will likely find ways to get their point out anyway; let's just stop making it so easy for them.  :shrug:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Cognitive_Shift] * 1
    #21644299 -

Cognitive_Shift said:
Being a political criticism leader is almost a crime, the FBI has been up the ass of basically any group trying to change the culture and attitudes of the popular culture (MLK, John Lennon ect ect)  Putting them under surveillance, extorting them ect ect.

I don't mean that in a conspiracy theory sort of way, I mean that in a matter of fact plain as day sort of way.



This is what I see going on also. When they have a group of college protestors lined up sitting down handcuffed, and walk by covering their entire head with pepper spray. All for protesting wealth disparity. We no longer have free speech. Billionaires can spend a billion dollars on 'speech' while paying workers $8/hour who have no voice.

This is not acceptable. Enlil's depiction of what might happen if we take measures toward campaign finance reform, is actually what we already fucking have.

How many more years do you expect things will be the way they are? For better or worse, something will be done, and changes will occur. It is better to be a constructive part of that change than to sit back wallowing in apathy and helplessness.

We are now looking at Hillary and Jebb for president. If either of these two becomes president the problem will only get worse, and bring reform closer to fruition. Can't you just feel the political tension in the air? You don't see it on Fox or CNN, but it is there. As I said, for better or worse, something will be done.

The question isn't whether or not we need reform, the question is, how shall we make the changes that must be made.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21648043 -

Bigbadwooof said:
This is not acceptable. Enlil's depiction of what might happen if we take measures toward campaign finance reform, is actually what we already fucking have.



Really?  Please cite several cases of people going to jail in the U.S. for political speech.  Thanks in advance.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: zappaisgod]
    #21648963 -

zappaisgod said:
Why should the NY Times be exempt from your proposed free speech strictures?


They shouldn't.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21650042 -

Martin Luther King Jr, the kids at occupy Wall street, MLK's fellow protestors... umm, you think people arent arrested for political speech in this country?


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21650050 -

MLK was a different time.  Occupy wasn't only speech, and people were arrested for conduct, not speech.

That's a far, far cry from being arrested for placing an ad, dude, and you know it.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #21650125 -

Enlil said:
MLK was a different time.  Occupy wasn't only speech, and people were arrested for conduct, not speech.

That's a far, far cry from being arrested for placing an ad, dude, and you know it.


Firstly, people wouldn't be arrested for placing ads, unless they overspent in doing so. There is a purpose for doing such a thing. The wealthy have abused their privileged place. Without the threat of jail time they will continue to abuse our political system.

You see, protest is the means by which the poor exercise their right to political speech. That's the real difference here. Poor and disenfranchised protestors get arrested for their speech, but the wealthy can run their fuckin mouths as much as they want in as many ways as they want without getting dirty. You can make a distinction between the two in your mind, but there isn't one.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21650133 -

Protestors that get arrested for speech are arrested illegally.  Cops get sued for that, and charges get dropped.  You're talking about making it LEGAL to arrest people for speech.  Huge difference.

Cops have always been a force for oppression.  You seem to think that it's a good idea to give them even more power to oppress.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21650238 -

Enlil said:
Protestors that get arrested for speech are arrested illegally.  Cops get sued for that, and charges get dropped.  You're talking about making it LEGAL to arrest people for speech.  Huge difference.

Cops have always been a force for oppression.  You seem to think that it's a good idea to give them even more power to oppress.


I would like to release the stranglehold that the wealthy have on political discourse. Sure, I want campaign finance laws to be enforced. That's not the same as 'oppression'. In fact it is the opposite. It is relief from the oppression we are currently dealing with. When wealthy donors lobby for drug tests on welfare recipients, and fight to get rid of the minimum wage, and social security, that is true oppression. Removing the Koch's ability to donate a billion dollars of bribe money to politicians is not 'oppression'.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21650421 -

ocupy has been brought up on FALSE charges several times.

a few years back there was an onslaught of arrests for violent behavior that got dropped.

last year 5 of the top occupy people in London got called up on "questions" of pedophilia... also dropped.

its almost like people go out of their way to discredit them...which has a similar result to limiting speech without all the nasty riots.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21650441 -

Enlil said:
You're talking about making it LEGAL to arrest people for speech.  Huge difference.


NO.  He's talking about arresting people for spending too much on politics.

Enlil said:
Cops have always been a force for oppression.  You seem to think that it's a good idea to give them even more power to oppress.


As he's already stated, they have ONLY been a force of oppression against the poor.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: rxb]
    #21650541 -

rxb said:
ocupy has been brought up on FALSE charges several times.

a few years back there was an onslaught of arrests for violent behavior that got dropped.

last year 5 of the top occupy people in London got called up on "questions" of pedophilia... also dropped.

its almost like people go out of their way to discredit them...which has a similar result to limiting speech without all the nasty riots.


The Occupy protestors were treated quite horribly in some places. It made my very sad just watching the footage. They are still around doing great things in the world. Building homes for homeless people, helping ppl handle student loans to for-profit colleges, etc. Good people.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21650546 -

Anyone who makes anti-status quo political movements is going to get treated badly.  That's just the way it is.


--------------------
L'enfer est plein de bonnes volontés et désirs

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21650930 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As he's already stated, they have ONLY been a force of oppression against the poor.


And power will always be used that way.  Your suggestions would only make it easier to do so.  That's been my point all along.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21651034 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As he's already stated, they have ONLY been a force of oppression against the poor.


And power will always be used that way.  Your suggestions would only make it easier to do so.  That's been my point all along.


That depends who has the power. There are ways to empower the general population, just as there are ways to disempower them. Wealth and power are not the same thing. They are in America, but they don't have to be.

If we cut the connection between wealth and politics, we can start to develop a more powerful public, which has more control of the political process. That has been our point all along.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21651062 -

Power will always seek to condense to the smallest circle possible.  This has been true since the beginning of civilization.  Even if you somehow achieved a "redistribution of power", it would be fleeting.  A small group would become adept at manipulating the system you put in place and power would concentrate naturally. 

The only difference is that you will have removed some of the safeguards already in place, so the process will be somewhat quicker and perhaps with an amplified total effect.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21651085 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As he's already stated, they have ONLY been a force of oppression against the poor.


And power will always be used that way.  Your suggestions would only make it easier to do so.  That's been my point all along.


Please help me understand how limiting the rich's ability to influence politics would instead limit the ability of the poor to influence politics.  :wtf:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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