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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21637510 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
BoldAsLove said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Perhaps medium is too general a word.  A more specific word should work (something that describes a "basketball game" rather than just "television".)


That's the whole point of this thread, I suppose. But, at the moment, I'm not sure what word or phrase would concisely describe what you are trying to describe.


And maybe it's fine as is.  At a high level, political speech isn't banned on television, but for televised basketball games it's subject to the contribution limit.


I don't think your current test conveys that message at all. From Meriam-Webster, the relevant definition of medium is "a particular form or system of communication (such as newspapers, radio, or television)." As your test currently stands, it puts contribution limits on all political content on television, the internet, radio, etc.


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DISCLAIMER: None of the ideas expressed above are actually mine. They are told to me by Luthor :alientransform: and Ferdinand :cigar:, the five inch tall space aliens who live under my desk. In return for these ideas, I have given them permission to eat any dust bunnies they may find under there.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #21637628 -

Enlil said:
Someone always pays.  It sounds like your system wouldn't even make it hard to spend unlimited money advocating for or against a candidate.  You'd barely make a dent.



Yep, that's the way all these attacks on free speech via campaign finance reform ideas work: they are either unprincipled measures that lack a guiding philosophy and are trivial to work around or they are ever-growing seeds of totalitarianism. The unworkable distinction between good and bad speech in the eyes of the reformer will forever necessetate greater and more arbitrary power on the part of the censor to prevent their provisions from being rendered moot.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21637750 -

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So maybe get rid of the constitution all-together since so much of it is open to interpretation?


Yeah, I kinda got the feeling that this was your endgame.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21637759 -

i think it should be rewritten.

but what a shit storm that would be.

there are still people in this country who believe the constitution shouldnt apply to black people.

imagine trying to write up something that was clear.


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->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21638607 -

Enlil said:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So maybe get rid of the constitution all-together since so much of it is open to interpretation?


Yeah, I kinda got the feeling that this was your endgame.


YOU'RE the one that suggested nothing ambiguous should go in the Constitution.  :shrug:


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: johnm214]
    #21638613 -

johnm214 said:
Yep, that's the way all these attacks on free speech via campaign finance reform ideas work: they are either unprincipled measures that lack a guiding philosophy and are trivial to work around or they are ever-growing seeds of totalitarianism. The unworkable distinction between good and bad speech in the eyes of the reformer will forever necessetate greater and more arbitrary power on the part of the censor to prevent their provisions from being rendered moot.


So you're ok with how the wealthy are having an ever greater influence on Government that was supposed to be for the people?


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I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21638631 -

I never made such a suggestion, and I had no idea that this was the proposed text of an amendment.  That'd be silly.  I assumed that this was the test to be used in a statute authorized by an amendment.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: psyconaught]
    #21639540 -

psyconaught said:
by that same logic if you are watching a tv show then you are actively seeking the ads that are associated with it.


Actually it doesn't even remotely mean that. You're digging deep to find ridiculous arguments, and then saying that there are infinite arguments against campaign finance reform. I haven't seen any that I find unmanageable.


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"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21639723 -

No i'm saying there are infinite arguments against how Fal has structured his test.


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Think for yourself, question authority

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: psyconaught]
    #21640058 -

I'm not entirely sure how the 'test' has warped into what it appears to be now. We had something quite solid earlier on. I haven't been able to follow along all the way to this point, unfortunately.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21640069 -

I think it's changed as a result of the huge flaws in the test.  With every change, the test seems to get worse, though.

Frankly, I think this has been an excellent experiment to confirm what I've already said:  There is no workable system that can be put in place that would be effective and not be used to silence the poor even more.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21640094 -

Enlil said:
I think it's changed as a result of the huge flaws in the test.  With every change, the test seems to get worse, though.

Frankly, I think this has been an excellent experiment to confirm what I've already said:  There is no workable system that can be put in place that would be effective and not be used to silence the poor even more.


Not all of the guidelines we have been through would silence the poor. Some might be simple enough for the wealthy to work around, but would just be ineffective. We started off fairly strong. I don't believe that it can't be done. Other countries have put in place programs to limit campaign finance, maybe we should look at how they have done it.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21640118 -

I agree that not all of them would silence the poor, but that's the core of the problem. Either the test errs on the side of allowing too much to slip through or on the side of punishing far too much speech.  Sometimes both.  Unless something can be figured out that works the way it's supposed to work, there's no point in gutting the First Amendment.

As far as other countries, sure...they also throw people in jail for unpopular speech.  I'm not willing to pay that price for campaign finance reform.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21641158 -

Bigbadwooof said:
I'm not entirely sure how the 'test' has warped into what it appears to be now. We had something quite solid earlier on. I haven't been able to follow along all the way to this point, unfortunately.


We had a test where the only argument against it was that it would be difficult to know whether or not a majority of people wanted to see political statements put in front of them, without a survey:

Quote:
If a political statement is put in front of people, a majority of whom aren’t actively seeking it, then  the statement is subject to individual contribution limits.  If a political statement is put in front of people, a majority of whom are actively seeking it, then it is not subject to individual contribution limits, unless a 3rd party pays to dictate the content.


Given that only 25% of people watch the SuperBowl for the ads, and that number would be substantially less if you introduced political ads, I can't think of a situation where you'd need a survey.

Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (05/05/15 08:47 PM)

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #21641914 -

From what I read a few days ago, it appears that Australia actually has a panel that determines what does and doesn't qualify as political speech, for cases which are difficult to discern. I'm sure we could utilize a tactic such as that.

I already know Enlil's argument against it (or believe I do). I think it's something to the tune of, 'then you are putting the 'enormous' power of censoring speech in a small number of hands', etc. If these officials were elected yearly for this sole purpose the issue might not be so big. I feel that there are ways to set it up properly to avoid corruption, but I certainly don't have all of the answers.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof] * 1
    #21641984 -

Small country solutions often don't work in big countries.  Also, I'd be careful who you want to emulate.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Enlil]
    #21642234 -

shrug, i mean its better than trusting people to disclose their conflicts of interest.

i mean as a lawyer i guess thats good.

because everytime an ad goes up someone is going to claim there was an undisclosed conflict that is going to sit in court for months. by which time the election will be over... and the damage will be done.

and like the wall street fucks that divebombed the economy getting found guilty probably wont result in any jailtime.


--------------------
->$10 FLOW HOOD ALTERNATIVE <-

. i cleaned a mold contaminated live culture and saved it. (might have useful applications)

[quote]Enlil said:
I'd be the guy with thousands of minions doing my bidding and all of the hot women locked in a cage for my use.[/quote]

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: rxb]
    #21642641 -

No, we would have minimum punishments, including jailtime, for violations, depending on the extent of the violation. That is the only way it would work, otherwise the wealthy would just pay the fines and go on with business as usual.


--------------------
"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society," - Jiddu Krishnamurti
FARTS
"No my dog won't bite you, tho it had the right to. You ought to give him credit, cuz he knows I woulda let him" - Modest Mouse (And Wooof!)
Every one of you should see this video.
"Facts are chiels that winna ding, and downa be disputed" - Robert Burns


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Bigbadwooof]
    #21642798 -

Right - and you punish both the person placing the add, and the person showing the add for violations.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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Re: No limit on campaign contributions [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #21643217 -

It's good to see that you and Woof agree that society will be a much better place when people are locked up for criticizing politicians too much.


I seriously can't believe that this conversation has come this far without either of you realizing how truly oppressive your proposed system would be.


--------------------
Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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