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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
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Grand Illusion
    #2154149 - 12/03/03 06:31 AM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Are we, as human sentients, able to comprehend our own inability to communicate en masse?

I find it interesting that our perception, turned in-side out through the use of certain technology, has been transformed into expression, the sentiment that progenerates our discontent. Can this not be likened to that of a "Grand Illusion" in the modernist narrative sense? Is it our inability to rationalize, or become content with this state of being which is to be undergone, is that why so many men end up seeking salvation and redemption?

It seems that nowadays it is this "grand illusion" that is the drive behind our actions and concerns, the electricity in our streetcars and the gasoline in our automobiles.

its coffee, ciggarretes, dating, roses, alcohol, love, memories, sadness, loneliness, helplessness, strength, religion, pornography, photography, film, literature, ice cream and the holocaust.

The "grand illusion" is all of this, and more.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Positronius]
    #2156231 - 12/03/03 08:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

ahhh,

thus is life, yes?


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Positronius]
    #2156258 - 12/03/03 08:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

The grand illusion is just everyone subjective reality seen as whole.

MAIA


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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineShizpow
Street Samurai

Registered: 03/06/03
Posts: 83
Loc: Oregon
Last seen: 12 years, 9 months
Re: Grand Illusion [Re: MAIA]
    #2156281 - 12/03/03 08:35 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

coffee, ciggarretes, dating, roses, alcohol, love, memories, sadness, loneliness, helplessness, strength, pornography, photography, film, literature, ice cream and the holocaust are what life is all about.

It's salvation and redemption that are the grand illusion.


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If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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OfflinePositronius
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Registered: 11/27/03
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Shizpow]
    #2156289 - 12/03/03 08:37 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

mmm. Indeed.


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and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Positronius]
    #2156301 - 12/03/03 08:43 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

What is? That we think that those things will somehow posses our life? Make it worthwhile to live? SOmetimes i wonder if people try to find salvation in their constant routine, work, sleep, eat, drink, smoke cigs, drink, sex, sleep, eat, work, vacation... and a year of the previous routine over and over? Is that part of the "gran illusion"? Who is being fooled?


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What?


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Shizpow]
    #2156325 - 12/03/03 08:53 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Salvation is a possible reality but not experienced, at least no one knows if it works. I think it's just the objective of western religions. It works differently for other several kind of religions.
Redemption is a consequence. A consequence of the need for salvation, lets say it's one of the "exchange keys" in this balance of the salvation game.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflineShizpow
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Registered: 03/06/03
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: MAIA]
    #2156415 - 12/03/03 09:22 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

"Redemption is a consequence. A consequence of the need for salvation..."

The idea that we need salvation. I think this is the thing that makes me hate religions so much. Especially the western trifecta of the Judeo-Christian-Islamic faiths. I agree that there's a different take on salvation and redemption in other religions, but the general idea is what bothers me.

It sounds like a swell deal on the surface, get saved and redeemed because God loves you. But underneath, it's a sneaky duplicitous device set up to break people down and make them believe that they are not worthy, tha they are not even complete beings. The implication is (again, especially in western religions) that we are not good enough on our own to deserve good treatment. The alternative is eternal punishment, which seems awfully harsh for simply existing as you were created. It's only through the good grace of some external agent (Jesus) that we are made whole. I resent this more than aything else about religion, because I believe in nothing more than the ability and potential of human beings, and I hate to see them cringe in fear and beg forgiveness for living their lives.


--------------------
If you cut a face lengthwise, urinate on it, and trample on it with straw sandles, it is said that the skin will come off. This was heard by the priest Gyojaku when he was in Kyoto. It is information to be treasured.


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OfflineMAIA
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Shizpow]
    #2156473 - 12/03/03 09:38 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

I know what you mean. I do think Jesus message was a very simple one but it was made more complicated as the religious institutions grew. I find the idea of salvation very abstract and i do think we got the idea all wrong from the beginning.
A fact is, that such redemption key has been used as an instrument of power inside the religious institution. It was perverted, as anything that mixes man and power.

MAIA


--------------------
Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala



Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
Posts: 947
Loc: montreal-vancouver-tokyo
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: MAIA]
    #2156480 - 12/03/03 09:39 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

okay, this isnt about christianity, so get back on topic


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Positronius]
    #2156511 - 12/03/03 09:52 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

you didnt reply to my post. I find your topic to be unclear, was I off topic ? LOL  :lol:  :laugh:


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OfflinePositronius
playboy

Registered: 11/27/03
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2156570 - 12/03/03 10:14 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

okay, let me clarify.

It is the Grand Illusion that fuels our secret motivations, even if those motivations are subversive in nature. The smokescreen, when the captured prisoner escapes from his cell, and crawls through the sub-conscious that has been implemented through force. The route that one may follow in order to evacuate the airplane which is hurtling towards the depths of the ocean.

It is the giant clam on the ocean floor which beholds riches unimaginible, that is the "grand illusion", that which very few men ever find, and for some, never imagine.


--------------------
and you know it like a poet, like....babydoll


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InvisibleZero7a1
Leaving YourWasteland

Registered: 10/23/02
Posts: 3,594
Loc: Passing Cloud
Re: Grand Illusion [Re: Positronius]
    #2156605 - 12/03/03 10:23 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

what if man were to find salvation in himself, to find peace within his life while rising above his bounds? Not using some outward force in order to achieve something higher?

i think all of us think... well we are here, this place isnt so great, or it could be better, so im gonna go here, and do this, once i get there, it will be better? Does that sound like the scenario you are looking for? If so, i think that has a lot to do with the natural process of evolution or survival.


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What?


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OfflinePanoramix
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Registered: 11/26/03
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Re: Grand Illusion [Re: MAIA]
    #2156784 - 12/03/03 11:25 PM (13 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

MAIA said:
The grand illusion is just everyone subjective reality seen as whole.

MAIA




Yeah! But a subjective realities can't experience one another, hence the Egocentric Prediciment. Or, so as not to sound like a prig, a mind cannot know another mind.

And I did pluralize 'subjective realities', I'm not a solipsist, you all exist, please don't hurt me! And possible sp, I'm really out of it.


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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General Interest >> Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology

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