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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5869962 - 07/17/06 05:05 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

Panoramix said:
Ah well, sinners always made better company, to my mind...




then you must be a masohist. I don't like being beaten, spit on, or killed even




:lol:  Some of the nicest people I know are "sinners" by the Biblical definition.  It would be difficult to find someone who has never sinned in any way.  Not all sinners behave like guests on the "Jerry Springer Show." :smirk:




A siner (the major kind) is a person whose life is dominated by hatered and selfishness
Atheists mostly use the word sin when it comes to sexual freedom and drugs, these are prime examples they use against the idea of sin.
But when it comes to sins such as murder, nobody mentions that because then they would have to agree with christians, and that's a big no-no

And the fact that siners are nice really says nothing. What does being nice have to do with anything? There are nice rapists too.

By biblical definition, everyone is a siner, yes, but there are some that sin more than others. Usually those are not pleasant company, even for atheists, because they will most likely hurt you or try to cheat you


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: leery11]
    #5869968 - 07/17/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
well we are all sinners deserving nothing more than eradication.

except, we don't deserve that at all, because Jesus lived for us.

it's sort of a sharp duality , but pragmatic if you think about humanity as a unit.

i've wondered this a while.... if the Jesus thing is real.... did God come down and commit suicide, departing all his holiness into ether/spirit, which we are inheriting and using to become Gods on our own, until all of humanity ascends and God becomes unified as a sentient "unit" again?

i find it intruiging.




By biblical standards, Jesus sacrifise did very little and most of us would end up dead in the judgement day.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5870016 - 07/17/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I believe that Panoramix was referring to the Bible-thumping Christian version of "sinners," as in anyone who disagrees with their version of How Things Should Be.

Quote:

And the fact that siners are nice really says nothing. What does being nice have to do with anything? There are nice rapists too.





Nope, I must disagree. There are no nice rapists. There may be rapists who act as if they are nice in order to hide their true nature from others, but anyone who forces another human being to have sex with them is, by definition, NOT NICE.

Quote:

The seven deadly sins:

Pride is excessive belief in one's own abilities, that interferes with the individual's recognition of the grace of God. It has been called the sin from which all others arise. Pride is also known as Vanity.

Envy is the desire for others' traits, status, abilities, or situation.

Gluttony is an inordinate desire to consume more than that which one requires.

Lust is an inordinate craving for the pleasures of the body.

Anger is manifested in the individual who spurns love and opts instead for fury. It is also known as Wrath.

Greed is the desire for material wealth or gain, ignoring the realm of the spiritual. It is also called Avarice or Covetousness.

Sloth is the avoidance of physical or spiritual work.




Have you ever met anyone who could be considered "without sin" according to these standards?


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5870065 - 07/17/06 05:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

nice can be independant of honesty, Actually compusive liars seem to be the nicest people,

because they'd rather hide the truth, rather then confront you and tell you what may possibly hurt you,

they maybe flakes but they're not usually assholes,


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5870083 - 07/17/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Well the way word "nice" is used these days, I got the feeling it simply means people who have a smile on their face and are friendly when you talk to them, but ok, maybe you should have used the word good instead, because good is often used to describe something in the core, while nice can be used to describe something superficial

Well anyway. No, I don't know anyone who never sined any of those sins, but that's not the point. The idea of a real christian is to work against those sins all your life. It's about the choice not to sin, and the effort you put into that choice.
You know there are those people who have hormonal disorders, and get furious so much that their head explodes, and they often hurt someone, but some of them really try to contain that, even by agreeing to get professional help.
It's really a greater deed not to sin by containing extreme feelings and urges with the power of strong will, than to not sin without even getting tempted. It's building character.
It's easy for a healthy man to walk, but when a criple walks its twice the joy.

Every one of these sins, is a guideline, and not a restriction.
There is a place and time for everything in christianity. You can have sex, you can eat, drink, you can have drugs, you can own things, but all as long as you don't get consumed and enslaved by it.

Though I think some of these things was more of a cultural thing of Jews, than something that had to do with real spirituality. And I never understood, why they call them "deadly" sins.
I mean, sure, acoarding to the Bible, in the aincient times, god did strike people with laser beams for spilling sperm on the ground and stuff like that, but that's aincient history, nobody dies cause of their sins, unless they mean eternal life, in which case the punishment for sin is death.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Invisibleblackdragon999
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5870508 - 07/17/06 07:08 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I will roll the dice... so if my reason to gamble is to play the game of life and attemp to win, I will. Life is to short to worry about fate. I believe time is relative. Today is my eternity.


--------------------








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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5870534 - 07/17/06 07:11 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you, Veritas, for accurately elaborating on and defending my statement while I was elsewhere.  There are plenty of sins, OldWoodSpectre.  And most of the people who are the most obsessed with avoiding sin also end up doing a good job avoiding life.  To quote Aesop Rock from the song Holy Smokes -

"For in the eyes of the organisation I was raised in
Aes is just another sinning brick in hell's basement
Cubicle adjacent to the killers and rapists
For what?  Drugs and fucking is part of growing up..."

I mean, don't babies who die before they get baptised die in sin?  I'll take sides with the dead babies, the curious and those inclined to indulge before I stand with the uptight prigs anyday.  Not trying to suggest that you're any of the above, OWS.  I'm just saying...
Let's hear it for lust and sloth!!  Can I get a witness!??!!  :tongue2:  :biggrin:  :tongue2:


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5870564 - 07/17/06 07:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

blackdragon999 said:
I will roll the dice... so if my reason to gamble is to play the game of life and attemp to win, I will. Life is to short to worry about fate. I believe time is relative. Today is my eternity.




Well, outside of certain religious concepts, you can't really win life, because you always die, and lose the life. So no matter how much you fight you lose.

Saying that life is too short to wory about gaining eternal life is a kind of a wierd oxymoron-like statement.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Panoramix]
    #5870613 - 07/17/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:And most of the people who are the most obsessed with avoiding sin also end up doing a good job avoiding life.




First of all, you can't avoid life, you are alive no matter what, you can avoid pleasures, but pleasure is not life, pleasure is pleasure.

Second, the logic behind christianity is that it doesn't matter if you avoide pleasures in this life, because you are going to live in eternal pleasure in the next one.
It falls to water if there is no next life, but from the point of view of that belief it does make sense to disregard this life.

Quote:

Panoramix said:
I mean, don't babies who die before they get baptised die in sin?





Well if you can quote the Bible on that, I'll answer the question. There are a lot of on-line Bibles, find the line where you read that and we'll discuss.

You don't get blaimed for having a sin in you, you get blaimed for living it out.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5870797 - 07/17/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Second, the logic behind christianity is that it doesn't matter if you avoide pleasures in this life, because you are going to live in eternal pleasure in the next one..."

Wow, that makes perfect sense to me!  Why enjoy yourself now when you might or might not get the opportunity to enjoy yourself even more AFTER you die!  :cuckoo:

If you ask me, it's up to us to enjoy this life AND any possible follow-up lives, irregardfull of their content.  To do any less is to spit on this marvelous gift of life we've been given, and on any deity/force/concept that gave us the gift.

"It falls to water if there is no next life, but from the point of view of that belief it does make sense to disregard this life."

Did I read that right?  Disregard this life???!!  In hopes of a better next one?  Open your eyes, man.  You're already in heaven.

"Well if you can quote the Bible on that, I'll answer the question. There are a lot of on-line Bibles, find the line where you read that and we'll discuss."

Umm, motherfuck THAT, man.  If I wanted to debate scriptures, I'd be on one of the multitude of sites dedicated to just that.  Not one that is essentially still about shrooms, maybe, hopefully, at least a little bit.  No, here I reserve the right to talk out my ass...  :smirk:

Edited: turns out the word 'in' has an 'n' in it.  Whoops.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


Edited by Panoramix (07/17/06 07:58 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Panoramix]
    #5870856 - 07/17/06 08:06 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

"Let's hear it for lust and sloth!! Can I get a witness!??!!"

Hallelujiah!!!

Also, Catholic dogma states that babies who die without being christened end up in "limbo," between heaven and hell.  :shrug:


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Panoramix]
    #5870887 - 07/17/06 08:14 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

If you didn't want to debate scriptures, why did you ask that thing about kids and baptism?


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5870897 - 07/17/06 08:16 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
"Let's hear it for lust and sloth!! Can I get a witness!??!!"

Hallelujiah!!!

Also, Catholic dogma states that babies who die without being christened end up in "limbo," between heaven and hell.  :shrug:




Again, may I get a quote? Catholics do not read the Bible, period. They read parts and invent the rest.
Therefore christianity can not be discussed with references from catholic theology


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5870940 - 07/17/06 08:25 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Thank you, Veritas.  I figure there are enough people around who know that sort of stuff that it's pretty pointless for me to look it up.

Wait a sec, I thought in between heaven and hell was purgitory!  Is purgitory the same thing as limbo?.

Aw HELL!  I just spilt an entire mason jar of tea all over myself and my roommate's keyboard and mouse.  God punishes a wicked, blasphemous unbeliever?  Sure, why not.  Y'know what?  It was still funny.  And due to the cream content of my tea, in a couple days this roller-chair is going to start to smell funny, too.  :bitch:

And my pyjamas are all soggy now!  :cryariver:

The point being... umm... I seem to have lost my train of thought, I'd better just post this before I cause any more comical minor catastrophes...


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5870969 - 07/17/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

I think she was clarifying for me where I'd heard that 'unchristened babies go to (I thought it was hell, turns out it's limbo)' thing for me.

"If you didn't want to debate scriptures, why did you ask that thing about kids and baptism?"

I can have a question answered without debating scriptures.  And I feel absolutely no compulsion to read them, thanks anyhow.  I didn't realize the bible was required reading for having an opinion  :rolleyes:


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Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Panoramix]
    #5870973 - 07/17/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

:lol: Isn't a flood of hot tea with cream one of the signs???  :eek:

Watch out for locusts swarming in your livingroom.


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OfflinePanoramix
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Veritas]
    #5871083 - 07/17/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Funny you should mention that, I just realized the balcony screen-door was open and mosquitos were swarming in here (meaning my living room. 
:whoa:  trippy stuff!

Well, I've brewed myself a nice fresh pot of tea, time for me to relax in front of the Daily Show and laugh myself though my own little apocalypse.


--------------------
Don't worry, I'm wrong.


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Invisibleblackdragon999
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5871323 - 07/17/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:

blackdragon999 said:
I will roll the dice... so if my reason to gamble is to play the game of life and attemp to win, I will. Life is to short to worry about fate. I believe time is relative. Today is my eternity.




Well, outside of certain religious concepts, you can't really win life, because you always die, and lose the life. So no matter how much you fight you lose.

Saying that life is too short to wory about gaining eternal life is a kind of a wierd oxymoron-like statement.




If you define "losing" as dying then yes. I don't define it as such. notice I said "attemp to win"... thats all we do in life (in one way or another). in reference to my oxymoron-like statement: I understand that there is some answers that I will never find, but there is much order in chaos(so we think), order is a model of illusion. Therefore if life is too short, and life is an illusion(the duration is also), therefore time is relative. There is no difference between eternity, future, present or past for that matter.


--------------------








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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: Panoramix]
    #5872331 - 07/18/06 04:18 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Panoramix said:
I think she was clarifying for me where I'd heard that 'unchristened babies go to (I thought it was hell, turns out it's limbo)' thing for me.

"If you didn't want to debate scriptures, why did you ask that thing about kids and baptism?"

I can have a question answered without debating scriptures.  And I feel absolutely no compulsion to read them, thanks anyhow.  I didn't realize the bible was required reading for having an opinion  :rolleyes:




If what you ask is only scripture material (where else did the idea of baptism come from? or any of that religious stuff?)
how else were you supose to discuss it without refering back to the source of that material?

You stated this as if it was an original part of christianity.
There is no reason for me to try and explain it them, unless you prove to me that it IS a christian myth, and not something the the church invented.


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: Do we roll the dice with salvation? [Re: blackdragon999]
    #5872334 - 07/18/06 04:21 AM (17 years, 6 months ago)

Even the mathematicians of chaos theory will tell you that chaos is a sort of a "helper" word that we use to describe an area where we don't know all the variables. In reality there is no chaos, only lack of understanding which we call chaos.
Chaos theory is a shortcut to predicting chaos areas without understanding all the variables.

It's like trying to solve a a simple x+y=z without knowing at least two of the variables, so to speak


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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