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Objective vs Subjective cosmologies * 1
    #21392045 -




This kind of blew my mind. Sometimes I flip flop between the two cosmologies without even really recognizing it....I feel like the Objective cosmology is what society has conditioned itself to believe, whereas the Subjective Cosmology (where everything arises directly from awareness) is probably the true reality. And that's we were so fucked up as a species, because our entire cosmology could literally be ass backwards.

I never really thought about this much until reading the above...that the way we interpret the world/our mind, fundamentally, could very well be wrong.


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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: resonant111]
    #21392059 -

Sounds like bull shit to me.  It's a load of arrogant self importance born out of an individual's selfish desire to be the center of the universe.

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: DieCommie]
    #21392108 -

I can see that actually, lol.

I'm mostly concerned with the differences in the following: (not so much the stuff about the universe itself)

minds >>> awareness

VS

awareness >>> minds



I think it's better to see awareness giving rise to the mind, because then you have total mastery over your own thoughts, creative powers, self identity, etc. Whereas with mind giving rise to awareness....that sort of assumes that the mind has power over us, and we can't change it.

I don't know. Just pondering this stuff.


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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: resonant111]
    #21392247 -

I like this quote by physicist F. David Peat:

"Just as the elementary particle unfolds out of the quantum field, the soliton appears in the nonlinear field, and the vortex emerges from the river, so may an individual consciousness emerge out of the complex background order of consciousness that extends into the whole universe. The individual mind is therefore a sort of localization or concentration of consciousness that unfolds into the brain and body of the individual. But as the electron will fold into other elementary particles and back into its ground of the quantum field, and just as the vortex has no absolute independence from the ripples and vortexes of the river, so too an individual mind cannot be separated, in any absolute way, from the consciousness of society as a whole. In this way the individual mind unfolds out of the consciousness of all humanity and then folds back again, in a continuous process."


Which implies that consciousness is more fundamental than matter and energy, rather than the other way around.  Definitely worthy of consideration.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21449438 -

Which implies that consciousness is more fundamental than matter and energy, rather than the other way around.  Definitely worthy of consideration.


Amen to that. :thumbup: This is no solipcistic consciousness. Human consciousness is more like 'channelled' consciousness from the "Ground of Being" which IS Cosmic Consciousness. Our nervous systems, supported by all the other bodily systems, are like the radios I built as a kid from a coil of wire a Germanium diode and an antenna wire. One could even eliminate the diode and receive radio signals from a piece of pencil lead attached to a safety pin, touching a rusty (oxidized) razor blade. I once heard W-VNJ, a 100 watt local radio station crudely and intermittently resonate from two sections of rusty rain gutter on my parents' house! I turned on a transistor radio to match the (unclear) vibrations issuing from the metal gutters. Perhaps this is a crude example, but manifest Reality is created through "the word [of God]" in John's gospel, the Greek term being Logos, which has several meanings. One of those meanings, intelligence, was called by Transcendental Meditation®  "Creative Intelligence." Hindus say it is OM or AUM.  From a position of philosophical Idealism, Cosmic Consciousness gave rise to energy which in turn coalesced into particles and hence matter. Matter evolved to biological life permits this Ultimate Reality to attain self-consciousness and post on The Shroomery. :lol:


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: DieCommie]
    #21449679 -

DieCommie said:
Sounds like bull shit to me.  It's a load of arrogant self importance born out of an individual's selfish desire to be the center of the universe.


Could be. Seems a pretty hefty thing to digest and immediately infer "It's a load of arrogant self importance born out of...", though, brother. Don't get me wrong, it certainly could be. But it's one thing to start with "sounds like..." and end with some conclusive "it's a load of arrogant...".

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: el8tch]
    #21467764 -

I've been thinking about this topic independently quite a lot recently, and the implications of this are really quite scary. To argue the subjective view of cosmology (which could be just as easily seen as the subjective view of consciousness) seems to necessarily lead into a solipsistic take on things. With this being said, I don't think solipsism is borne of selfishness, rather just an extreme take on Occam's razor in its relation to epistemology. The problem that I can see with this point of view is that it seems to on some level grant a privileged reference frame in reality, which is a no-no.

Just as a question in general, would you agree that a subjective view of cosmology then warrants a nihilistic approach to life?


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"We don't think
You understand."

We don't think;
You understand?


Edited by iamjimmeh (03/27/15 11:04 PM)

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: iamjimmeh]
    #21467821 -

Don't worry dude, objective reality is really real.  :smile:

No need to fret.


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Vi Veri Universum Vivus Vici

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: DividedQuantum]
    #21468777 -

Really real?

I'd argue objectivity is a projected complex of epistemelogical preoccupations. It is not reducible or generalized as a point of reference, or an end "in itself"

In the implied method it is conceived as part of, objectivity is at once having to do with things, and not (it asks for "detachment"), at the same time. I think that suggests a question. How could this be considered anything meaningful in general?

It can't be said that a theoretical object is either phenomenon or neumenon, or either an appearance or reality in general. It in the obviously constructed having to do with things (as phenomena) and not (as things in themselves) and both.

With regards to any given object, you can only find yourself in the specific context, considering the contingency of an phenomenal appearence, that may also be called the "sense" of a proposition, or statement of affairs (or some other bullshit), but all you can talk about in a general way is BOTH.

If this notion of object of methodology (ie certain projected means and ends) was extrapolated in a single statement it would be consist in what appears to be real.

If this statement doesn't appeal to taste, or does not seem useful, then objectivity it it may also be considered a proposition that a theoretical abstraction is adopted in the projected means and ends of methodology, and general epistemelogical preoccupations.

"...He is no "end in himself". The objective man is indeed a mirror: he is accustomed to submit before whatever wants to be known, without any other pleasure than that found in knowing and "mirroring"; he waits until something comes, and then spreads himself out tenderly lest light footsteps and the quick passage of spiritlike beings should be lost on his plane and skin..."

(Nietzsche Beyond Good and Evil £207)

Edited by Kurt (04/01/15 05:34 PM)

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: Kurt]
    #21475151 -

iamjimmeh said:
I've been thinking about this topic independently quite a lot recently, and the implications of this are really quite scary. To argue the subjective view of cosmology (which could be just as easily seen as the subjective view of consciousness) seems to necessarily lead into a solipsistic take on things. With this being said, I don't think solipsism is borne of selfishness, rather just an extreme take on Occam's razor in its relation to epistemology. The problem that I can see with this point of view is that it seems to on some level grant a privileged reference frame in reality, which is a no-no.

Just as a question in general, would you agree that a subjective view of cosmology then warrants a nihilistic approach to life?


It does not seem a huge step from quiescing to nullity and accepting and embracing it. I would say it's not really any less justified...

"It is as if at his rejection of skepticism they heard some evil, menacing rumbling in the distance, as if a new explosive were being tried somewhere, a dynamite of the spirit, perhaps a newly discovered nihiline, a pessimism bonae voluntatis (of good will), that does not merely say No, want No, but - horrible thought! - does No."

(Nietzsche again)

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Re: Objective vs Subjective cosmologies [Re: iamjimmeh]
    #21487731 -

iamjimmeh said:
I've been thinking about this topic independently quite a lot recently, and the implications of this are really quite scary. To argue the subjective view of cosmology (which could be just as easily seen as the subjective view of consciousness) seems to necessarily lead into a solipsistic take on things. With this being said, I don't think solipsism is borne of selfishness, rather just an extreme take on Occam's razor in its relation to epistemology. The problem that I can see with this point of view is that it seems to on some level grant a privileged reference frame in reality, which is a no-no.

Just as a question in general, would you agree that a subjective view of cosmology then warrants a nihilistic approach to life?


when you look at the world, every single living thing is undeniably selfish, and primarily occupied with its OWN being and survival. from cancer cells to human beings. it's just the way it is.

i think fully accepting one's subjective selfishness is the most natural way to live, actually. it is quite possible to live selfishly while minimally harming other beings. i am totally selfish and the only thing i legitimately "harm" is the food i eat to survive.


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