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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
The Deadly Truth of Imperialism
    #2072801 - 11/05/03 11:56 AM (13 years, 1 month ago)

This below is an essay i submitted to my english class on Iraq.
Be interested to know what people think. Enjoy.

The Deadly Truth of Imperialism


Vigils and Petitions Couldn?t Stop This War?.

Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There always is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets, taking whatever they can find, by force if necessary; but the real robbers here, are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country.

It has been about seven months since the imperialist invasion of Iraq, followed by an ongoing and deadly military occupation. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by a decade of UN starvation sanctions, and an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country. Children are often seen playing with water contaminated with raw sewage. And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. Everyday there is word of military casualties within the occupying forces as resistance and anger grows towards the invaders; the soldiers at first expecting to be greeted by grateful Iraqis, find out how just much they are despised there. Just recently when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.

The war, cynically named ?Operation: Iraqi Freedom?, was not meant to bring democracy to Iraq from the ?evil? dictator Saddam Hussein (who by the way, was a creation of US/UK imperialism). The lies perpetuated by the imperialists about the threat of weapons of mass destruction are beyond ludicrous. It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago! Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up. In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked. The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,. The possibility of the existence of even one nuclear bomb was enough to keep the United States at bay in their approach with North Korea. These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned. Whatever weapons North Korea is able to develop in order to militarily counter the United States is certainly a supportable measure for anyone claiming to be anti-imperialist.

Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States. This is where imperialism displays its true face, dripping with blood. Shortly after the American and British forces took control of the seaport of Umm Qasr, Stevedoring Services of America was immediately rewarded a contract to own and run the port. Stevedoring Services runs other ports worldwide, and is just one of the many companies rushing into Iraq to grab a piece of the pie. This was only the beginning, now billions of dollars in contracts will be given to companies to ?reconstruct? what the imperialists blew up, to privatize water and public services, as well as the huge oil reserves. As John Disharoon from the construction company Caterpillar puts it: ?The timing is almost perfect, things are starting to move forward.?. The capitalists clearly have their interests in mind. Even Canada, which lied about its non-participation in the war, will be in Iraq to pick up the pieces. The NDP and the Canadian government, that both claimed to not support the war, now supports sending in cops to assist in the occupation. This is business as usual under the capitalist economy, that systemically breeds war and destruction.

All of this may sound very demoralizing, and cynics will claim that it wasn?t even possible to alter the course of war. After all, wasn?t there a large anti-war movement worldwide before the start of the war? The movement has all but dissipated now. There are still a few protests here and there, but they have gotten a lot smaller as thousands have gotten demoralized that their efforts did not produce real world results. War is a necessary product of the capitalist system. It is through war that the imperialists gain new resources, new markets, as well as labour to exploit. Eventually the imperialists at some point get into conflict with each other, and an inter-imperialist war breaks out, of ruling powers fighting to re-divide up the world, as was horrifically demonstrated in World War I and World War II. The problem with the anti-war movement was that it did not deal with this fact, that war is a product of capitalism. Because of this, the protests were not a threat to the capitalist system, and hence, not an obstacle to the war effort.

It is ridiculous to think that it is possible to appeal to the conscience of those instigating the war, with undead pop-hippie icons trying to get the imperialist murderers to ?Imagine? a peaceful world. Maybe an angel will visit Bush in his sleep and convince him not to start war. That?s essentially what the protests were all about: appealing to the conscience of the ruling class that have their interests in mind. The war would have taken a very different direction, had for example, dock workers gone on strike to oppose the war. A strike at a dock, which ships and receives cargo (including military cargo) is an impediment to the war effort. The well respected Marxist Isaac Deutscher once remarked, during the Vietnam war, that a dock strike would have been worth more than a thousand peace demonstrations against the war. This was exactly why the police came down so violently (more so than other cities) when a protest occurred in front of a dock in Oakland, CA. Interference with such facilities is a threat to the ability of the imperialists to carry out war. And the ruling class knows that.

Not only were the anti-war demonstrations not a threat to capitalism. They breed false illusions in anti-war activists. Liberals cried for support to the NDP and the United Nations. Even though the NDP were the ones that demanded the UN starvation sanctions on Iraq a decade ago. And the UN is really a den of imperialist thieves that sent weapons inspectors (spies) to ensure Iraq would be disarmed and defenseless for the subsequent invasion. Grotesquely enough, the protests in Canada were filled with virulent Canadian nationalism to a government which supported the war, while publicly claiming it did not. Even Paul Celluci, US ambassador to Canada pointed out this fraudulent two-face irony while protesting Canada?s decision to not publicly support the war. Canada had navy ships in the Gulf region, with approximately a thousand soldiers, escorting US naval units. On the one hand, it fully supports the war, while on the other it claims not to in order to trick anti-war activists. A fight against the war, cannot happen unless it is a fight against capitalism, and a fight against capitalism cannot happen if the masses are as misled as they were by pro-capitalist liberals.

The only successful anti-war movement that ever happened, was the Russian Revolution in 1917. Angry at the devastation of the losing war effort in Germany and the effect that this had on the lives of the working class, the Bolsheviks (communists) lead a workers revolution, overthrowing the ruling class in Russia, and effectively ended the war. It also brought gains, such as full employment for all, free housing, education, healthcare, rights for women, and brought the once poor 80% peasant country, to the worlds second industrialized superpower with a space program. These gains were slowly deformed by the Stalinists, and later completely reversed, which has meant poverty and disease for Russians. Internationally it has also meant the United States declaring itself the only superpower can run roughshod over third world nations, unchallenged by any military counterweight.

Times are getting worse. There is a lesson to be learned in all historical struggles, and the Iraq anti-war movement played out similarly to the protests during Vietnam. That is they had little effect on the course of history. Capitalism cannot exist without war. It needs war to survive. A socialist revolution is necessary to end the barbarism which exists, and to build an egalitarian socialist economy, on the ruins of the capitalist system.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073054 - 11/05/03 01:48 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

alright... seeing as that it's an english class paper, i'll tell you what i think about your arguments, as well as the composition.... the gramatical stuff will be in blue. my own editorializing will be in normal font.

Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There always [do not use the word "always". few things are "always".] is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets  [cut out the "taking whatever they can find, by force if necessary;", it's redundant. that's what robbers do.] but the real robbers here, [cut that comma] are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country.

revised, it would read: "Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets, but the real robbers here are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country." even at that however, it's not entirely good. you go from danger to robbers in the last sentence in a way that does not flow continuously like it should. do you see what i mean?

It has been about seven months since the imperialist invasion of Iraq, followed by an ongoing and deadly military occupation. [cut out the words "imperialist" and "deadly". they only reveal your bias and they are useless adjectives]  The situation in Iraq has been devastated by a decade of UN starvation sanctions,  [cut that comma] and an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country. [site a source if you are going to make claims like that. also, the "ongoing war" is not even arguably responsible for the conditions you describe. the US occupation of iraq and the fighting with guerrillas has done little damage to the infrastructure.] Children are often seen playing with water contaminated with raw sewage.   [again, site a source. can you validate that claim?][i believe that the infrastructure in iraq has been mostly repaired to pre-war levels. if you want to talk about the sanctions, that's one thing, but to blame the current situation of the infrastructure in iraq on the recent war is not sound reasoning.] And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. [site a source for that claim. also, you write as though decreasing morale and suicide rates are indicators that the situation in iraq is out of control. they aren't. and again... drop the word "imperialists"] Everyday there is word of military casualties within the occupying forces as resistance and anger grows towards the invaders; the soldiers at first expecting to be greeted by grateful Iraqis, find out how just much they are despised there. Just recently when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.  [site your sources!]

The war, cynically named ?Operation: Iraqi Freedom?, was not meant to bring democracy to Iraq from the ?evil? dictator Saddam Hussein (who by the way, was a creation of US/UK imperialism).[can you see the future? how do you know this war will not bring democracy to iraq? why is "evil" in quotes? the part about US\UK imperialism is flawed. hussein may have come to power with the help of the US, but this was part of the cold war. he was put up in place of the increasingly socialistic regime of the former ruler in order to hedge off communism in that part of the world; the word "imperialist" is not fitting.] The lies perpetuated by the imperialists about the threat of weapons of mass destruction are beyond ludicrous. [drop the "imperialist", and following this should be a valid, thorough examination of why the claims were "lies"... this: It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago!  is not enough]. Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up.  [change "possesses" to "could have possessed" and change "was" to "were". make the "so far... " part a different sentence and cut the "none of them" to just "none"[this statement is false anyway. iraq had weapons programs and was capable of making weapons on its own. that much is a well-known fact.]  In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked.[an uprovable assumption, but moving along...] The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,. site a source. when and where did tony blair actually say this? also... use quotes properly]   The possibility of the existence of even one nuclear bomb was enough to keep the United States at bay in their approach with North Korea. [bad argument. unlike iraq, north korea has one of the largest, most well-equipped militaries in the world. even if that were not true, a chemical weapon is much, much more threatening than a nuclear weapon. that statement is full of holes]. These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned. [source please... :smirk:]   Whatever weapons North Korea is able to develop in order to militarily counter the United States is certainly a supportable measure for anyone claiming to be anti-imperialist.  this whole paragraph is entirely lacking in direction and focus.

is it helpful for you if i continue? no offense, but this paper exposes you as a poor writer dripping with bias and having a poor grasp on historical events or on logic. the final paragraph really seals the deal. think things through a little more thoroughly...

wading through the paper is rather tedious, so unless my suggestions and refutations are not falling on deaf ears, i'm gonna stop. i recommend that you save this paper somewhere. you may enjoy reading it over again a few years down the line.

F


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073152 - 11/05/03 02:18 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.




In parts of the country is the key word, as currently more electricity and water is being supplied throught iraqi then when saddam was in power. Of course it doesnt help when jihadis try to sabotage these efforts.

Quote:

when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.




War is hell, not many people actually want to be there. Although they signed up and if they do not return they should receive punishment.

Quote:

It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago




I find that laughable at best.

Quote:

Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up.




Anthrax cultures for vet purposes are not considered wmd, but when they intentionally grow them for weaponization they become wmd. Last i time i checked i dont remember the US selling iraqi large shipments of nerve gas.

Quote:

The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,.




Now when did blair say this? Under regulations the regime had to provide proof of the destruction of their wmd. They did not do this.

Quote:

These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned.




There is something called m.a.d. Prolly the one thing that saved humanity during the cold war.

Quote:

Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States.




I dont see why greatly biased general statements belong in an essay.

Quote:

Shortly after the American and British forces took control of the seaport of Umm Qasr, Stevedoring Services of America was immediately rewarded a contract to own and run the port.




And this port would have been worthless unless cared for. Considering the condition in the country no iraqi agency would have been able to do this.

Quote:

This was only the beginning, now billions of dollars in contracts will be given to companies to ?reconstruct? what the imperialists blew up, to privatize water and public services, as well as the huge oil reserves.




The military blew targets deemed worthy in defeating the dictatorship. The people who are blowing up water mains and other sites which distribute power are the jihadis.

Quote:

The capitalists clearly have their interests in mind. Even Canada, which lied about its non-participation in the war, will be in Iraq to pick up the pieces. The NDP and the Canadian government, that both claimed to not support the war, now supports sending in cops to assist in the occupation. This is business as usual under the capitalist economy, that systemically breeds war and destruction.




The war is over so i dont know what you are talking about. Canada would be sending those men to keep the peace and help in reconstruction. And how does sending men to keep the peace relate to the capitalist economy?

Quote:

Times are getting worse. There is a lesson to be learned in all historical struggles, and the Iraq anti-war movement played out similarly to the protests during Vietnam. That is they had little effect on the course of history. Capitalism cannot exist without war. It needs war to survive. A socialist revolution is necessary to end the barbarism which exists, and to build an egalitarian socialist economy, on the ruins of the capitalist system.




Socialism does not work. When will people ever realize this? If people lived in a true egalitarian socialist economy then no matter what one did they would always remain at the same level. Nothing drives people to do anything. This is why in the previous socialist regemes power had to influence people to work.

The wizard will always reign in infinite power no matter what his figurehead apears to be. Without a central power or driving force nothing would ever be accomplished. Humans are inheirantly evil and lazy, without that push society's pregress would come to a screeching halt.

I give this paper an F+


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073198 - 11/05/03 02:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I find that laughable at best.





I find it interesting that you find the truth laughable...or did you not hear about that incident?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073212 - 11/05/03 02:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Show me blair's dossier and the kids university report.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073278 - 11/05/03 03:02 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/iraq/britishdossier2.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0207-09.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ellis_brighton/dossier.html
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/comment/0,11538,892070,00.html

Just do a search in Google for "plagiarized dossier" and you'll find a few hundred links...and stop using FOX as your only news source.

here is the original Dossier that was plagiarized...
http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html

And here is the report put out by the British government.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp




--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/05/03 03:06 PM)


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Offlined33p
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Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073337 - 11/05/03 03:24 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I have never watched fox news so stop making false allegation, a habit you could use getting over.

And i had never heard this so sue me. I dont search day and night for the wrong doings of the coalition specially the uk's. It doesnt matter to me if they picked and choose certain points from a paper. If they still remained to be the truth other than plagerism what is so wrong.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073347 - 11/05/03 03:28 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

If your not going to bother to keep yourself informed about a particular situation, you should not comment on it or criticize what someone else has written.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073357 - 11/05/03 03:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
I have never watched fox news so stop making false allegation, a habit you could use getting over.

And i had never heard this so sue me. I dont search day and night for the wrong doings of the coalition specially the uk's. It doesnt matter to me if they picked and choose certain points from a paper. If they still remained to be the truth other than plagerism what is so wrong.




I hardly search day and night for wrong doings of the coalition...there is no need to...all you have to do is watch the news or read a newspaper. This has been common and public knowldege for quite some time.

I'm glad that you think it is okay for a nation to intentionally use plagiarized information that is over 12 years old to justify a pre-emptive war against another sovereign nation...I don't share the same luxury apparently.


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073358 - 11/05/03 03:32 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I could say the same about the majority of the points in your paper. I on the otherhand had not heard of a single even which occured withen another countries government.

But maybe i wouldnt have made the error if you had provided any proof whatsoever in your essay.

And by the way when did blair say this: "according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,."?


--------------------
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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2073360 - 11/05/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

I did not write this paper, or post this as an intellectual excersize or to prove whether I was a good writer or not. I'm not a writer. I'm a political activist, everything I write is going to be politicized, just like everything you read. Anyone that claims their writing is unbiased, is a liar, plain and simple. As soon as a human being sits down and starts typing away, they are speaking from their own perspectives, whether they know it or not. I'm honest about my biases. I'm a communist, but that doesnt mean the facts I posted are less true.


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073363 - 11/05/03 03:33 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Thats right. Tony Blair said that in a speech. I can find it for you. But not now, I'm too busy with schoolwork.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073372 - 11/05/03 03:36 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Actually he said 45 minutes...not seconds...but the point remains the same.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0818-08.htm
Blair, the BBC and the Devil's Dilemma
by Mark Starowicz

London ? ''A dead man from beyond the grave talks with terrible authority,'' writes author Polly Toynbee in The Guardian this week, ''his recorded words hang there in the air.'' So may the political fate of British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his rationale for going to war with Iraq.

On July 17 at 3 p.m., Dr. David Kelly, one of the British government's leading experts on Iraq's weapons-of-destruction programs, told his wife he was going out for a walk in the countryside around his Oxfordshire home. The next morning, police found his body, wrist slashed.

A month later, as London swelters in its hottest days in over a century, the media have been boiling over with rhetoric and recrimination. David Kelly, from the grave, has launched one of the biggest confrontations between press and government since the Pentagon papers and the Vietnam War, and pitted the credibility of the Prime Minister's press office against the venerable BBC. Meanwhile, the Hutton commission of inquiry is revealing the inner workings of both in excruciating detail with enough e-mails, tape recordings and memos to tie up five Jesuit seminaries in debate.

Tony Blair's government released a dossier last September saying that Iraq could launch a biological or chemical attack "within 45 minutes." It sent a shudder around the world and helped mobilize public opinion against Iraq. But it seems that it also sat very badly with the professionals in the British intelligence and defence community. It was, in many professionals' view, not true: a product of the press office rewrite desk getting itself into a lather to shape public opinion.
Enter David Kelly, a respected adviser to the government on Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction programs. First, forget any suggestion that Mr. Kelly was a secret, "Deep Throat" cipher, disgruntled with the system, quietly feeding damaging information to one BBC reporter. Mr. Kelly made himself available to the media and was speaking to several broadcast and print reporters on a regular basis. To me, it's inconceivable his superiors didn't know this; Mr. Kelly was clearly authorized to give deep background briefings to the press.

Neither was he a tortured pacifist. He was committed to the analysis that Saddam Hussein was a dangerous force and had programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. He may just have been too candid for his own good, and reflected the disagreement within the Ministry of Defence and the intelligence community.

Yes, Saddam Hussein had programs to develop weapons of mass destruction; no, we did not tell the government he could launch chemical or biological attacks within 45 minutes.

In an telephone conversation with BBC correspondent Susan Watts on May 30 (which Ms. Watts recorded), Mr. Kelly said "they [the Blair insiders at No. 10 Downing Street] were desperate for information . . . they were pushing hard for information which could be released, that was one which popped up and it was seized on . . . and it was unfortunate that it was, which is why there is the argument between the intelligence services and Cabinet Office/No. 10 . . . "

Alarms about the claim were being rung everywhere in the intelligence system, he said, but "people at the top of the ladder" did not want to hear them.

The first journalist to report this was BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan, at 6:07 a.m., May 29, on Radio 4's Today program. He quoted an unnamed source alleging Downing Street wanted the government's dossier on Iraq "sexed up" with a reference to Saddam Hussein's ability to launch a biological or chemical attack within 45 minutes.

Mr. Gilligan's phraseology in this first early-morning report, was, in his own subsequent words, "not perfect." The impression had been left that the Downing Street press office might have known the 45-minute statement was untrue. Mr. Gilligan cleaned up his later reports that day, but the storm had been unleashed.

Enter Alastair "Hurricane" Campbell, Tony Blair's tough, competent and sometimes explosive communications director. "The BBC story is . . . a lie . . . until we get an apology for it, I will keep making sure that Parliament and people like yourselves know that it was a lie."

Mr. Campbell then makes what may prove to be a critical strategic mistake. He doesn't just say that Mr. Blair and No. 10 honestly believed, on available evidence, the 45-minute claim.

He nails the government's entire credibility to the unequivocal assertion that Iraq could launch in 45 minutes. "I know we are right in relation to the 45-minute point," he repeats almost a month later.

Watching this ferocious drama unfold, I can't escape a shudder. I watch reporters exposed to minute scrutiny in the Hutton inquiry, their scribbled notes dissected, their decisions scrutinized. Like dozens of my media colleagues, I think back to the times we at CBC had only seconds to make critical decisions while on air, live, in network radio or television, on the phrasing of a lead sentence.

But the drama unfolding in London, for all its tragic undertow, is a credit to the BBC and to journalism. There is no doubt in my mind I would have aired a report that there was significant dissent in intelligence ranks about the 45-minute assertion. I hope I would have been careful about attributing foreknowledge and intent, but that there was internal dissention was incontrovertible. The governors of the BBC behaved with impressive coolness in the face of withering fire from the government press office, and stood by their report, refusing to apologize or retreat.

What's also impressive this week, as the e-mails and internal memos within the BBC are revealed, is the mess. Yes, the editor of the Today program expressed regret internally about the phrasing of the first reports; yes, another BBC correspondent testified the first report attributed too much deceptive intent on the part of the No. 10 press office. Yes, there is internal debate.

But the BBC stands, at the end of this week, as a pluralistic, transparent institution that measured and debated its actions responsibly and morally.

In London, the range of debate about this statement is quite narrow: It's widely assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the statement was wrong, and the question is only: Did the press office or the Prime Minister innocently believe it, or knowingly disseminate a lie? The distinction is politically and morally germane, of course, but it's lose/lose for the government. Neither answer -- willful distortion or credulous delusion -- inspires public confidence.

Polly Toynbee concluded in The Guardian this week: "In the dangerous drama now unfolding, the BBC is only a sideshow. It is the government that stands indicted by that unanswerable recorded voice from the grave that will linger on in the public imagination . . ."

Whatever one thinks about Iraq, and however this story ends -- tarring or vindicating Mr. Blair -- there is another reason this ferocious debate about the press, and government, and war seems so vivid to me. In the United States, there are few parallel tensions, if any, between media and government on this story, and the public debate is nowhere near the toxicity of the British one. Is it a purely British phenomenon, or a harbinger of what will happen in the United States this fall?





--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/05/03 03:39 PM)


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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 12 years, 6 months
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073380 - 11/05/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

His (Saddam Hussein?s) military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them.? -- Tony Blair, Foreword to Iraq ?dossier?

Okay Okay, I was mistaken. Tony Blair actually said "45 minutes"...not seconds, that Saddam Hussein would be able to launch a WMD at the UK.... He said that in a speech, and in the foreward to his WMD dossier.

My point remains the same however, despite this error. The UK, and the United States tried to scare the public into thinking the danger was imminent when in fact it didn't exist.


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073381 - 11/05/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Damn! beat me to it!


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073382 - 11/05/03 03:39 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:


I hardly search day and night for wrong doings of the coalition...there is no need to...all you have to do is watch the news or read a newspaper. This has been common and public knowldege for quite some time.




I dont have the luxury to watch much tv as i spend most of my time keeping my own business afloat. Who knows what i was doing 8 months ago when this occured, but i do know i wasent jumping up for joy liek some.

Quote:


I'm glad that you think it is okay for a nation to intentionally use plagiarized information that is over 12 years old to justify a pre-emptive war against another sovereign nation...I don't share the same luxury apparently.




Plagerism is really something i find strange. If something is the truth and remains to be the truth what makes it plagerism. Since the basic principles would alweays remain the same one could only speculate over the organization of the words.

So if thats what it comes down to, the organization of the words on a piece of paper mean nothing to me as long as they hold they original principle intact.

And hardly was this peice of paper the sole cause for the war.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073389 - 11/05/03 03:40 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

/me thinks that d33p would benefit from a lesson in using google...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlined33p
Welcome to Violence

Registered: 07/12/03
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073394 - 11/05/03 03:41 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

44 minutes and 15 seconds makes a large difference to me.

And wait eric, who did write this then?


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlined33p
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Registered: 07/12/03
Posts: 5,381
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Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073408 - 11/05/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
/me thinks that d33p would benefit from a lesson in using google...





Why do people use /me? In some places the /me is replaced by something else as it is a command but not here. So why do people use it if it does nothing....


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073411 - 11/05/03 03:45 PM (13 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Plagerism is really something i find strange. If something is the truth and remains to be the truth what makes it plagerism. Since the basic principles would alweays remain the same one could only speculate over the organization of the words.

So if thats what it comes down to, the organization of the words on a piece of paper mean nothing to me as long as they hold they original principle intact.

And hardly was this peice of paper the sole cause for the war.





I think you are missingthe point...besides the fact that the information was plagiarized...IT WAS 12 YEARS OLD.

You don't find it odd that a country with arguably one of the best inforamation gathering organiztions in the world, could only come up with 12 year old information copied from a grad student as one of their main reasons for going to war?

I really don't know what point you are trying to make, but you aren't making it.

The British government lied....so did the American government..plain and simple.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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