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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074161 - 11/05/03 05:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Just a sidenote by the way, I got 88% on this paper, not that it means anything of course.

it means a failure on the part of our educational system... apparently part of an all-too-frequent pattern of withholding constructive criticism or rejecting failure, for fear that it might hurt a student's feelings or make them feel inadequate.


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074165 - 11/05/03 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

In case you forgot, communist countries had an extensive history of
lying to their citizens.


what! say it isn't so!  :smirk:

good point.  :thumbup: 


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074169 - 11/05/03 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Riiight..... Just because it doesnt correspond with your political views? That makes no sense at all.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074171 - 11/05/03 05:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Just a sidenote by the way, I got 88% on this paper, not that it means anything of course.

it means a failure on the part of our educational system...



Exactly right.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074182 - 11/05/03 05:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.

Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class, ever since then the gains of the 1917 revolution began to deform before completely reversing itself in 1991-1992.

All subsequent worker states (i.e China, Cuba, North Korea) were created on the stalinist USSR's image, and were deformed from the beginning.

As Marxists, we fought to defend these states, while at the same time fighting to overthrow the bureaucratic regime internally, so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074184 - 11/05/03 05:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Riiight..... Just because it doesnt correspond with your political views?

no. my political beliefs are beside the point

it's very poorly written. the accuracy and logical foundations (or lack thereof) of the information and conclusions aside, the composition itself is terrible.


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074189 - 11/05/03 05:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please, besides the "45 seconds/45 minutes" discrepency, which I corrected, point out anything else that you find inaccurate.

And how does that one mistake change any of my points? It doesn't.
You just cant deal with the politics so you find one mistake to quibble over and declare everything else inaccurate.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074194 - 11/05/03 05:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
In case you forgot, communist countries had an extensive history of
lying to their citizens.


what! say it isn't so!  :smirk:

good point.  :thumbup: 



Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens?  Please do tell.  I'm all ears.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074195 - 11/05/03 05:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please, besides the "45 seconds/45 minutes" discrepency, which I corrected, point out anything else that you find inaccurate.

that was not the discrepency. the discrepency was that you said blair said that hussein could attack the united kingdom. he said nothing of the sort.

You just cant deal with the politics so you find one mistake to quibble over and declare everything else inaccurate.

hold on a minute...


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074201 - 11/05/03 05:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074248 - 11/05/03 05:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.


My point is that you accuse governments that exist in capitalist
countries of continually lying to their citizens, yet governments
in communist countries have lied extensively and they continue
to lie(North Korea for example) to their citizens.


Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and
his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class

so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their
citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists
that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


So your point is that a true communist government has never endured,
therefore all of the horrible things that occurred under these
regimes don't count as "communist" atrocities. I remember having
this argument with you in a long past thread. When you would bring
up that point, I would always bring up the point that communism
does not have a good track record of being able to endure. Strangely
enough the initial goodwill and enthusiasm that marks a communist
society tends to be replaced by repression and dictatorship. But,
these are topics for another thread.

Silversoul had a good point. "What government HASN'T lied to its
citizens?". Whether a government exists as a dictatorship,
democracy, theocracy, monarchy, etc... some government official
somewhere will stretch the truth at some point.




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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074249 - 11/05/03 05:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.




This is false. What about Iran? or Afghanistan during the rule of the Taleban (former Mujahadeen) which the CIA assisted ? What about Chile under Pinochet which the CIA put in power?

Accusing deformed-workers states of censorship (while true) is the worst kind of hypocrisy when you ignore it elsewhere. This is hardly a characteristic of the workers states, its a characteristic of any government which fears being overthrown!

If the US really charished free speech and freedom of the press, it wouldnt be trying to implement military dictatorships in its own interest elsewhere! The only reason why these rights still exist in the imperialist centres is because these governments currently have nothing to fear, and can allow some of this freedom to continue. But that can always change (anyone remember Germany under the Nazis?).


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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074260 - 11/05/03 05:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.


My point is that you accuse governments that exist in capitalist
countries of continually lying to their citizens, yet governments
in communist countries have lied extensively and they continue
to lie(North Korea for example) to their citizens.


Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and
his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class

so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their
citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists
that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


So your point is that a true communist government has never endured,
therefore all of the horrible things that occurred under these
regimes don't count as "communist" atrocities. I remember having
this argument with you in a long past thread. When you would bring
up that point, I would always bring up the point that communism
does not have a good track record of being able to endure. Strangely
enough the initial goodwill and enthusiasm that marks a communist
society tends to be replaced by repression and dictatorship. But,
these are topics for another thread.

Silversoul had a good point. "What government HASN'T lied to its
citizens?". Whether a government exists as a dictatorship,
democracy, theocracy, monarchy, etc... some government official
somewhere will stretch the truth at some point.







Of course they are not "communist" attrocities! Resticting free speech and murdering communists does nothing to advance the cause of socialism, nor did any of this bring any gains. Remember, it was communists that were murdered by the stalinist bureaucrats in the USSR.

Communists fight for the overthrow of these parasitic regimes, while defending the state at the same time, since the gains (though deformed) still exist in the workers states, and any reversal of it (ex. collapse of the USSR) would bring further poverty, immiseration as the imperalists rush in to take over and sell off whatever exists in the name of profit.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074271 - 11/05/03 05:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


mushmaster said:

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda,
suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost
invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.



This is false.


Read about the gulags in the Soviet Union. Read about the
concentration camps that still exist in North Korea for people
who dare to raise one word of dissent.


What about Iran? or Afghanistan during the rule of the Taleban
(former Mujahadeen) which the CIA assisted?


The US does have a disturbing history of meddling in the affairs
of other nations. Yet people like you rarely admit that EVERY
nation has a history of doing something unsavory in the pursuit
of its interests. Even *gasp* communist countries.


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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074282 - 11/05/03 06:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nope. You twist my words. I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074289 - 11/05/03 06:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But we are off topic here....All I was pointing out here, was this war is meant for capitalist profit, pure and simple. It hasnt brought liberation to Iraqis (if you call being shot at by US marines liberation, or having to drink sewer water liberation, your pretty fucked up), and the weapons of mass destruction are a fairy tale.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074299 - 11/05/03 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Nope. You twist my words.


I was not aware I was doing that.


I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers
states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of
the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit
gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


Doesn't it speak volumes that whenever it is attempted, "true
communism" as you call it has never been able to last any
significant amount of time?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074304 - 11/05/03 06:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


But we are off topic here....


I agree.


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074319 - 11/05/03 06:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

claims which are simply false:

1. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.

infrastructure is back to pre-war levels.

2. Everyday there is word of military casualties

there are not new military casualties every day.

3. according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds

blair said nothing about hussein's ability to attack the united kingdom.



claims which are based on faulty reasoning:

1. And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. 1. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.

it does not logically follow that because morale has dropped "significantly" and suicide rates are increasing that the situation in iraq is not under control. this is faulty reasoning.

also, you do not cite any sources for this information, or provide the actual statistics you're talking about.

2. In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked. The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true

false. if this were true, why then did the united states spearhead a coalition against the iraqis back in 1991, when we knew full well that they were sitting ontop of massive stockpiles of chemical weapons?

the bit about korea is ridiculous. korea may or may not have nuclear weapons, but they do have one of the strongest militaries in the world. fighting even a conventional war against them would be extremely bloody. also, a nuclear weapon is far more threatening than a chemical one.

3. Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States.

just over half a year since the invasion, you've got no way of knowing yet what the US's intentions are and what the status of iraq is as far as being a "colony" of the united states. making claims you cannot support does nothing for your argument.

4. the capitalist economy systemically breeds war and destruction.
War is a necessary product of the capitalist system.


capitalism is merely an economic system which allows individuals to enter into voluntary transactions as they see fit. war is not a product of this system, nor is it necessary for ths system to function. wars of aggression are, in fact, against the very principles of capitalism.

5. Eventually the imperialists at some point get into conflict with each other, and an inter-imperialist war breaks out, of ruling powers fighting to re-divide up the world, as was horrifically demonstrated in World War I and World War II.

false. the world was, by this time, already polarizing itself between the communist east and capitalist west. the rise and fall of fascism and nationalism had little effect on it. regardless, one of your "imperialists" here are the communist forces... wait a minute... i'm having trouble remembering something... was it america... or was it the soviet union that actually annexed other nations, claiming them for their own?


there are more, but i'm not in the mood to wade through the rest of the paper. most of it is just pro-communist, anti-capitalist rot that lacks logical foundation or compositional clarity and focus. quite frankly, i haven't got the time or patience for that.


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OfflineEric
journeyman
Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074327 - 11/05/03 06:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Nope. You twist my words.


I was not aware I was doing that.


I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers
states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of
the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit
gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


Doesn't it speak volumes that whenever it is attempted, "true
communism" as you call it has never been able to last any
significant amount of time?





I hate repeating myself, so I'm only going to say this once.

The fight for communism, does not, i repeat DOES NOT lead to Stalinism. Stalinism emerged out of extraordinary conditions that the USSR faced (most of which was out of their control) at the time. As a result, Stalin (who personifies the interests of the bureaucracy) usurped power from the soviets (democratic working class institutions) in order to secure their own interests. This didn't happen without a fight, a lot of revolutionaries died in the gulag, and some of them were lucky enough (like Trotsky) to exile. All other socialist revolutions happening after this time period, were imitations of the deformed USSR because they were under the leadership of the Stalinist bureaucracy in the Soviet Union, which is why North Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam, were deformed from their inception. These states, unlike the USSR, did not start off as a workers revolution, never had workers democracy, and never went through a process of degeneration.


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