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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
Last seen: 16 years, 1 month
The Deadly Truth of Imperialism
    #2072801 - 11/05/03 09:56 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

This below is an essay i submitted to my english class on Iraq.
Be interested to know what people think. Enjoy.

The Deadly Truth of Imperialism


Vigils and Petitions Couldn?t Stop This War?.

Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There always is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets, taking whatever they can find, by force if necessary; but the real robbers here, are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country.

It has been about seven months since the imperialist invasion of Iraq, followed by an ongoing and deadly military occupation. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by a decade of UN starvation sanctions, and an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country. Children are often seen playing with water contaminated with raw sewage. And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. Everyday there is word of military casualties within the occupying forces as resistance and anger grows towards the invaders; the soldiers at first expecting to be greeted by grateful Iraqis, find out how just much they are despised there. Just recently when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.

The war, cynically named ?Operation: Iraqi Freedom?, was not meant to bring democracy to Iraq from the ?evil? dictator Saddam Hussein (who by the way, was a creation of US/UK imperialism). The lies perpetuated by the imperialists about the threat of weapons of mass destruction are beyond ludicrous. It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago! Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up. In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked. The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,. The possibility of the existence of even one nuclear bomb was enough to keep the United States at bay in their approach with North Korea. These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned. Whatever weapons North Korea is able to develop in order to militarily counter the United States is certainly a supportable measure for anyone claiming to be anti-imperialist.

Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States. This is where imperialism displays its true face, dripping with blood. Shortly after the American and British forces took control of the seaport of Umm Qasr, Stevedoring Services of America was immediately rewarded a contract to own and run the port. Stevedoring Services runs other ports worldwide, and is just one of the many companies rushing into Iraq to grab a piece of the pie. This was only the beginning, now billions of dollars in contracts will be given to companies to ?reconstruct? what the imperialists blew up, to privatize water and public services, as well as the huge oil reserves. As John Disharoon from the construction company Caterpillar puts it: ?The timing is almost perfect, things are starting to move forward.?. The capitalists clearly have their interests in mind. Even Canada, which lied about its non-participation in the war, will be in Iraq to pick up the pieces. The NDP and the Canadian government, that both claimed to not support the war, now supports sending in cops to assist in the occupation. This is business as usual under the capitalist economy, that systemically breeds war and destruction.

All of this may sound very demoralizing, and cynics will claim that it wasn?t even possible to alter the course of war. After all, wasn?t there a large anti-war movement worldwide before the start of the war? The movement has all but dissipated now. There are still a few protests here and there, but they have gotten a lot smaller as thousands have gotten demoralized that their efforts did not produce real world results. War is a necessary product of the capitalist system. It is through war that the imperialists gain new resources, new markets, as well as labour to exploit. Eventually the imperialists at some point get into conflict with each other, and an inter-imperialist war breaks out, of ruling powers fighting to re-divide up the world, as was horrifically demonstrated in World War I and World War II. The problem with the anti-war movement was that it did not deal with this fact, that war is a product of capitalism. Because of this, the protests were not a threat to the capitalist system, and hence, not an obstacle to the war effort.

It is ridiculous to think that it is possible to appeal to the conscience of those instigating the war, with undead pop-hippie icons trying to get the imperialist murderers to ?Imagine? a peaceful world. Maybe an angel will visit Bush in his sleep and convince him not to start war. That?s essentially what the protests were all about: appealing to the conscience of the ruling class that have their interests in mind. The war would have taken a very different direction, had for example, dock workers gone on strike to oppose the war. A strike at a dock, which ships and receives cargo (including military cargo) is an impediment to the war effort. The well respected Marxist Isaac Deutscher once remarked, during the Vietnam war, that a dock strike would have been worth more than a thousand peace demonstrations against the war. This was exactly why the police came down so violently (more so than other cities) when a protest occurred in front of a dock in Oakland, CA. Interference with such facilities is a threat to the ability of the imperialists to carry out war. And the ruling class knows that.

Not only were the anti-war demonstrations not a threat to capitalism. They breed false illusions in anti-war activists. Liberals cried for support to the NDP and the United Nations. Even though the NDP were the ones that demanded the UN starvation sanctions on Iraq a decade ago. And the UN is really a den of imperialist thieves that sent weapons inspectors (spies) to ensure Iraq would be disarmed and defenseless for the subsequent invasion. Grotesquely enough, the protests in Canada were filled with virulent Canadian nationalism to a government which supported the war, while publicly claiming it did not. Even Paul Celluci, US ambassador to Canada pointed out this fraudulent two-face irony while protesting Canada?s decision to not publicly support the war. Canada had navy ships in the Gulf region, with approximately a thousand soldiers, escorting US naval units. On the one hand, it fully supports the war, while on the other it claims not to in order to trick anti-war activists. A fight against the war, cannot happen unless it is a fight against capitalism, and a fight against capitalism cannot happen if the masses are as misled as they were by pro-capitalist liberals.

The only successful anti-war movement that ever happened, was the Russian Revolution in 1917. Angry at the devastation of the losing war effort in Germany and the effect that this had on the lives of the working class, the Bolsheviks (communists) lead a workers revolution, overthrowing the ruling class in Russia, and effectively ended the war. It also brought gains, such as full employment for all, free housing, education, healthcare, rights for women, and brought the once poor 80% peasant country, to the worlds second industrialized superpower with a space program. These gains were slowly deformed by the Stalinists, and later completely reversed, which has meant poverty and disease for Russians. Internationally it has also meant the United States declaring itself the only superpower can run roughshod over third world nations, unchallenged by any military counterweight.

Times are getting worse. There is a lesson to be learned in all historical struggles, and the Iraq anti-war movement played out similarly to the protests during Vietnam. That is they had little effect on the course of history. Capitalism cannot exist without war. It needs war to survive. A socialist revolution is necessary to end the barbarism which exists, and to build an egalitarian socialist economy, on the ruins of the capitalist system.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073054 - 11/05/03 11:48 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

alright... seeing as that it's an english class paper, i'll tell you what i think about your arguments, as well as the composition.... the gramatical stuff will be in blue. my own editorializing will be in normal font.

Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There always [do not use the word "always". few things are "always".] is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets  [cut out the "taking whatever they can find, by force if necessary;", it's redundant. that's what robbers do.] but the real robbers here, [cut that comma] are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country.

revised, it would read: "Iraq is a dangerous place for anyone unfortunate enough to be living there right now. There is the danger of being shot at by the military, or robbed by the gangsters that roam the streets, but the real robbers here are the imperialists that have just taken over this oil rich country." even at that however, it's not entirely good. you go from danger to robbers in the last sentence in a way that does not flow continuously like it should. do you see what i mean?

It has been about seven months since the imperialist invasion of Iraq, followed by an ongoing and deadly military occupation. [cut out the words "imperialist" and "deadly". they only reveal your bias and they are useless adjectives]  The situation in Iraq has been devastated by a decade of UN starvation sanctions,  [cut that comma] and an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country. [site a source if you are going to make claims like that. also, the "ongoing war" is not even arguably responsible for the conditions you describe. the US occupation of iraq and the fighting with guerrillas has done little damage to the infrastructure.] Children are often seen playing with water contaminated with raw sewage.   [again, site a source. can you validate that claim?][i believe that the infrastructure in iraq has been mostly repaired to pre-war levels. if you want to talk about the sanctions, that's one thing, but to blame the current situation of the infrastructure in iraq on the recent war is not sound reasoning.] And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. [site a source for that claim. also, you write as though decreasing morale and suicide rates are indicators that the situation in iraq is out of control. they aren't. and again... drop the word "imperialists"] Everyday there is word of military casualties within the occupying forces as resistance and anger grows towards the invaders; the soldiers at first expecting to be greeted by grateful Iraqis, find out how just much they are despised there. Just recently when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.  [site your sources!]

The war, cynically named ?Operation: Iraqi Freedom?, was not meant to bring democracy to Iraq from the ?evil? dictator Saddam Hussein (who by the way, was a creation of US/UK imperialism).[can you see the future? how do you know this war will not bring democracy to iraq? why is "evil" in quotes? the part about US\UK imperialism is flawed. hussein may have come to power with the help of the US, but this was part of the cold war. he was put up in place of the increasingly socialistic regime of the former ruler in order to hedge off communism in that part of the world; the word "imperialist" is not fitting.] The lies perpetuated by the imperialists about the threat of weapons of mass destruction are beyond ludicrous. [drop the "imperialist", and following this should be a valid, thorough examination of why the claims were "lies"... this: It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago!  is not enough]. Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up.  [change "possesses" to "could have possessed" and change "was" to "were". make the "so far... " part a different sentence and cut the "none of them" to just "none"[this statement is false anyway. iraq had weapons programs and was capable of making weapons on its own. that much is a well-known fact.]  In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked.[an uprovable assumption, but moving along...] The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,. site a source. when and where did tony blair actually say this? also... use quotes properly]   The possibility of the existence of even one nuclear bomb was enough to keep the United States at bay in their approach with North Korea. [bad argument. unlike iraq, north korea has one of the largest, most well-equipped militaries in the world. even if that were not true, a chemical weapon is much, much more threatening than a nuclear weapon. that statement is full of holes]. These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned. [source please... :smirk:]   Whatever weapons North Korea is able to develop in order to militarily counter the United States is certainly a supportable measure for anyone claiming to be anti-imperialist.  this whole paragraph is entirely lacking in direction and focus.

is it helpful for you if i continue? no offense, but this paper exposes you as a poor writer dripping with bias and having a poor grasp on historical events or on logic. the final paragraph really seals the deal. think things through a little more thoroughly...

wading through the paper is rather tedious, so unless my suggestions and refutations are not falling on deaf ears, i'm gonna stop. i recommend that you save this paper somewhere. you may enjoy reading it over again a few years down the line.

F


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073152 - 11/05/03 12:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.




In parts of the country is the key word, as currently more electricity and water is being supplied throught iraqi then when saddam was in power. Of course it doesnt help when jihadis try to sabotage these efforts.

Quote:

when a few American GI?s were allowed to return home for a break, before having to return to duty, several of them disobeyed orders and refused to go back.




War is hell, not many people actually want to be there. Although they signed up and if they do not return they should receive punishment.

Quote:

It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago




I find that laughable at best.

Quote:

Any WMDs that Iraq possesses was sold to them by the US during the Iran-Iraq war, and so far, none of them have turned up.




Anthrax cultures for vet purposes are not considered wmd, but when they intentionally grow them for weaponization they become wmd. Last i time i checked i dont remember the US selling iraqi large shipments of nerve gas.

Quote:

The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true, according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,.




Now when did blair say this? Under regulations the regime had to provide proof of the destruction of their wmd. They did not do this.

Quote:

These days it seems, having a nuclear weapon is the only true guarantee of sovereignty. It was the Soviet Union with their large nuclear arsenal that prevented the United States from dropping nuclear weapons during the Korean war, as General McArthur they had planned.




There is something called m.a.d. Prolly the one thing that saved humanity during the cold war.

Quote:

Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States.




I dont see why greatly biased general statements belong in an essay.

Quote:

Shortly after the American and British forces took control of the seaport of Umm Qasr, Stevedoring Services of America was immediately rewarded a contract to own and run the port.




And this port would have been worthless unless cared for. Considering the condition in the country no iraqi agency would have been able to do this.

Quote:

This was only the beginning, now billions of dollars in contracts will be given to companies to ?reconstruct? what the imperialists blew up, to privatize water and public services, as well as the huge oil reserves.




The military blew targets deemed worthy in defeating the dictatorship. The people who are blowing up water mains and other sites which distribute power are the jihadis.

Quote:

The capitalists clearly have their interests in mind. Even Canada, which lied about its non-participation in the war, will be in Iraq to pick up the pieces. The NDP and the Canadian government, that both claimed to not support the war, now supports sending in cops to assist in the occupation. This is business as usual under the capitalist economy, that systemically breeds war and destruction.




The war is over so i dont know what you are talking about. Canada would be sending those men to keep the peace and help in reconstruction. And how does sending men to keep the peace relate to the capitalist economy?

Quote:

Times are getting worse. There is a lesson to be learned in all historical struggles, and the Iraq anti-war movement played out similarly to the protests during Vietnam. That is they had little effect on the course of history. Capitalism cannot exist without war. It needs war to survive. A socialist revolution is necessary to end the barbarism which exists, and to build an egalitarian socialist economy, on the ruins of the capitalist system.




Socialism does not work. When will people ever realize this? If people lived in a true egalitarian socialist economy then no matter what one did they would always remain at the same level. Nothing drives people to do anything. This is why in the previous socialist regemes power had to influence people to work.

The wizard will always reign in infinite power no matter what his figurehead apears to be. Without a central power or driving force nothing would ever be accomplished. Humans are inheirantly evil and lazy, without that push society's pregress would come to a screeching halt.

I give this paper an F+


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073198 - 11/05/03 12:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It was discovered that Tony Blair?s so called ?dossier? on the existence of WMDs was actually a report plagiarized off a university student written some years ago


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



I find that laughable at best.





I find it interesting that you find the truth laughable...or did you not hear about that incident?


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073212 - 11/05/03 12:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Show me blair's dossier and the kids university report.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073278 - 11/05/03 01:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/wot/iraq/britishdossier2.html
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0207-09.htm
http://www.geocities.com/ellis_brighton/dossier.html
http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foreignaffairs/comment/0,11538,892070,00.html

Just do a search in Google for "plagiarized dossier" and you'll find a few hundred links...and stop using FOX as your only news source.

here is the original Dossier that was plagiarized...
http://meria.idc.ac.il/journal/2002/issue3/jv6n3a1.html

And here is the report put out by the British government.
http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page7111.asp




--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/05/03 01:06 PM)


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073337 - 11/05/03 01:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I have never watched fox news so stop making false allegation, a habit you could use getting over.

And i had never heard this so sue me. I dont search day and night for the wrong doings of the coalition specially the uk's. It doesnt matter to me if they picked and choose certain points from a paper. If they still remained to be the truth other than plagerism what is so wrong.


--------------------
I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073347 - 11/05/03 01:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

If your not going to bother to keep yourself informed about a particular situation, you should not comment on it or criticize what someone else has written.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073357 - 11/05/03 01:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

d33p said:
I have never watched fox news so stop making false allegation, a habit you could use getting over.

And i had never heard this so sue me. I dont search day and night for the wrong doings of the coalition specially the uk's. It doesnt matter to me if they picked and choose certain points from a paper. If they still remained to be the truth other than plagerism what is so wrong.




I hardly search day and night for wrong doings of the coalition...there is no need to...all you have to do is watch the news or read a newspaper. This has been common and public knowldege for quite some time.

I'm glad that you think it is okay for a nation to intentionally use plagiarized information that is over 12 years old to justify a pre-emptive war against another sovereign nation...I don't share the same luxury apparently.


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Offlined33p
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073358 - 11/05/03 01:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I could say the same about the majority of the points in your paper. I on the otherhand had not heard of a single even which occured withen another countries government.

But maybe i wouldnt have made the error if you had provided any proof whatsoever in your essay.

And by the way when did blair say this: "according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds,."?


--------------------
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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2073360 - 11/05/03 01:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I did not write this paper, or post this as an intellectual excersize or to prove whether I was a good writer or not. I'm not a writer. I'm a political activist, everything I write is going to be politicized, just like everything you read. Anyone that claims their writing is unbiased, is a liar, plain and simple. As soon as a human being sits down and starts typing away, they are speaking from their own perspectives, whether they know it or not. I'm honest about my biases. I'm a communist, but that doesnt mean the facts I posted are less true.


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073363 - 11/05/03 01:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Thats right. Tony Blair said that in a speech. I can find it for you. But not now, I'm too busy with schoolwork.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073372 - 11/05/03 01:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually he said 45 minutes...not seconds...but the point remains the same.

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0818-08.htm
Blair, the BBC and the Devil's Dilemma
by Mark Starowicz

London ? ''A dead man from beyond the grave talks with terrible authority,'' writes author Polly Toynbee in The Guardian this week, ''his recorded words hang there in the air.'' So may the political fate of British Prime Minister Tony Blair and his rationale for going to war with Iraq.

On July 17 at 3 p.m., Dr. David Kelly, one of the British government's leading experts on Iraq's weapons-of-destruction programs, told his wife he was going out for a walk in the countryside around his Oxfordshire home. The next morning, police found his body, wrist slashed.

A month later, as London swelters in its hottest days in over a century, the media have been boiling over with rhetoric and recrimination. David Kelly, from the grave, has launched one of the biggest confrontations between press and government since the Pentagon papers and the Vietnam War, and pitted the credibility of the Prime Minister's press office against the venerable BBC. Meanwhile, the Hutton commission of inquiry is revealing the inner workings of both in excruciating detail with enough e-mails, tape recordings and memos to tie up five Jesuit seminaries in debate.

Tony Blair's government released a dossier last September saying that Iraq could launch a biological or chemical attack "within 45 minutes." It sent a shudder around the world and helped mobilize public opinion against Iraq. But it seems that it also sat very badly with the professionals in the British intelligence and defence community. It was, in many professionals' view, not true: a product of the press office rewrite desk getting itself into a lather to shape public opinion.
Enter David Kelly, a respected adviser to the government on Iraq's weapons-of-mass-destruction programs. First, forget any suggestion that Mr. Kelly was a secret, "Deep Throat" cipher, disgruntled with the system, quietly feeding damaging information to one BBC reporter. Mr. Kelly made himself available to the media and was speaking to several broadcast and print reporters on a regular basis. To me, it's inconceivable his superiors didn't know this; Mr. Kelly was clearly authorized to give deep background briefings to the press.

Neither was he a tortured pacifist. He was committed to the analysis that Saddam Hussein was a dangerous force and had programs to develop weapons of mass destruction. He may just have been too candid for his own good, and reflected the disagreement within the Ministry of Defence and the intelligence community.

Yes, Saddam Hussein had programs to develop weapons of mass destruction; no, we did not tell the government he could launch chemical or biological attacks within 45 minutes.

In an telephone conversation with BBC correspondent Susan Watts on May 30 (which Ms. Watts recorded), Mr. Kelly said "they [the Blair insiders at No. 10 Downing Street] were desperate for information . . . they were pushing hard for information which could be released, that was one which popped up and it was seized on . . . and it was unfortunate that it was, which is why there is the argument between the intelligence services and Cabinet Office/No. 10 . . . "

Alarms about the claim were being rung everywhere in the intelligence system, he said, but "people at the top of the ladder" did not want to hear them.

The first journalist to report this was BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan, at 6:07 a.m., May 29, on Radio 4's Today program. He quoted an unnamed source alleging Downing Street wanted the government's dossier on Iraq "sexed up" with a reference to Saddam Hussein's ability to launch a biological or chemical attack within 45 minutes.

Mr. Gilligan's phraseology in this first early-morning report, was, in his own subsequent words, "not perfect." The impression had been left that the Downing Street press office might have known the 45-minute statement was untrue. Mr. Gilligan cleaned up his later reports that day, but the storm had been unleashed.

Enter Alastair "Hurricane" Campbell, Tony Blair's tough, competent and sometimes explosive communications director. "The BBC story is . . . a lie . . . until we get an apology for it, I will keep making sure that Parliament and people like yourselves know that it was a lie."

Mr. Campbell then makes what may prove to be a critical strategic mistake. He doesn't just say that Mr. Blair and No. 10 honestly believed, on available evidence, the 45-minute claim.

He nails the government's entire credibility to the unequivocal assertion that Iraq could launch in 45 minutes. "I know we are right in relation to the 45-minute point," he repeats almost a month later.

Watching this ferocious drama unfold, I can't escape a shudder. I watch reporters exposed to minute scrutiny in the Hutton inquiry, their scribbled notes dissected, their decisions scrutinized. Like dozens of my media colleagues, I think back to the times we at CBC had only seconds to make critical decisions while on air, live, in network radio or television, on the phrasing of a lead sentence.

But the drama unfolding in London, for all its tragic undertow, is a credit to the BBC and to journalism. There is no doubt in my mind I would have aired a report that there was significant dissent in intelligence ranks about the 45-minute assertion. I hope I would have been careful about attributing foreknowledge and intent, but that there was internal dissention was incontrovertible. The governors of the BBC behaved with impressive coolness in the face of withering fire from the government press office, and stood by their report, refusing to apologize or retreat.

What's also impressive this week, as the e-mails and internal memos within the BBC are revealed, is the mess. Yes, the editor of the Today program expressed regret internally about the phrasing of the first reports; yes, another BBC correspondent testified the first report attributed too much deceptive intent on the part of the No. 10 press office. Yes, there is internal debate.

But the BBC stands, at the end of this week, as a pluralistic, transparent institution that measured and debated its actions responsibly and morally.

In London, the range of debate about this statement is quite narrow: It's widely assumed (rightly or wrongly) that the statement was wrong, and the question is only: Did the press office or the Prime Minister innocently believe it, or knowingly disseminate a lie? The distinction is politically and morally germane, of course, but it's lose/lose for the government. Neither answer -- willful distortion or credulous delusion -- inspires public confidence.

Polly Toynbee concluded in The Guardian this week: "In the dangerous drama now unfolding, the BBC is only a sideshow. It is the government that stands indicted by that unanswerable recorded voice from the grave that will linger on in the public imagination . . ."

Whatever one thinks about Iraq, and however this story ends -- tarring or vindicating Mr. Blair -- there is another reason this ferocious debate about the press, and government, and war seems so vivid to me. In the United States, there are few parallel tensions, if any, between media and government on this story, and the public debate is nowhere near the toxicity of the British one. Is it a purely British phenomenon, or a harbinger of what will happen in the United States this fall?





--------------------
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Edited by Rono (11/05/03 01:39 PM)


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073380 - 11/05/03 01:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

His (Saddam Hussein?s) military planning allows for some of the WMD to be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them.? -- Tony Blair, Foreword to Iraq ?dossier?

Okay Okay, I was mistaken. Tony Blair actually said "45 minutes"...not seconds, that Saddam Hussein would be able to launch a WMD at the UK.... He said that in a speech, and in the foreward to his WMD dossier.

My point remains the same however, despite this error. The UK, and the United States tried to scare the public into thinking the danger was imminent when in fact it didn't exist.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073381 - 11/05/03 01:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Damn! beat me to it!


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073382 - 11/05/03 01:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:


I hardly search day and night for wrong doings of the coalition...there is no need to...all you have to do is watch the news or read a newspaper. This has been common and public knowldege for quite some time.




I dont have the luxury to watch much tv as i spend most of my time keeping my own business afloat. Who knows what i was doing 8 months ago when this occured, but i do know i wasent jumping up for joy liek some.

Quote:


I'm glad that you think it is okay for a nation to intentionally use plagiarized information that is over 12 years old to justify a pre-emptive war against another sovereign nation...I don't share the same luxury apparently.




Plagerism is really something i find strange. If something is the truth and remains to be the truth what makes it plagerism. Since the basic principles would alweays remain the same one could only speculate over the organization of the words.

So if thats what it comes down to, the organization of the words on a piece of paper mean nothing to me as long as they hold they original principle intact.

And hardly was this peice of paper the sole cause for the war.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073389 - 11/05/03 01:40 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

/me thinks that d33p would benefit from a lesson in using google...


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073394 - 11/05/03 01:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

44 minutes and 15 seconds makes a large difference to me.

And wait eric, who did write this then?


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073408 - 11/05/03 01:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Rono said:
/me thinks that d33p would benefit from a lesson in using google...





Why do people use /me? In some places the /me is replaced by something else as it is a command but not here. So why do people use it if it does nothing....


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073411 - 11/05/03 01:45 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Plagerism is really something i find strange. If something is the truth and remains to be the truth what makes it plagerism. Since the basic principles would alweays remain the same one could only speculate over the organization of the words.

So if thats what it comes down to, the organization of the words on a piece of paper mean nothing to me as long as they hold they original principle intact.

And hardly was this peice of paper the sole cause for the war.





I think you are missingthe point...besides the fact that the information was plagiarized...IT WAS 12 YEARS OLD.

You don't find it odd that a country with arguably one of the best inforamation gathering organiztions in the world, could only come up with 12 year old information copied from a grad student as one of their main reasons for going to war?

I really don't know what point you are trying to make, but you aren't making it.

The British government lied....so did the American government..plain and simple.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073426 - 11/05/03 01:48 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I wouldnt really call it a lie. They just borrowed from a previous report beacuse it demonstrated their points the best. After 12 years if it still remains to be the truth then its fine. Now if your saying the actuall content was wrong and a lie then thats a different story.

And i would still remain that their were many reasons to go to war and this was just partial evidence toward one of those reasons.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073442 - 11/05/03 01:52 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The information was obviously incorrect...it was from the first gulf war. Alot has happened since then....Iraq has been under constant scrutiny for over a decade...not to mention the obvious fact that not one WMD has been found...or one drop of chemical weapons.

The content of the report may have been valid 12 years ago...but to use it as a pretext for war in the present is wrong. I see nothing debatable about that.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073448 - 11/05/03 01:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Well beyond reading the entire 4 pages of info taken from the report and showing it to false today i dont see how you can make that claim.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073460 - 11/05/03 01:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There is a very simple way...how many WMD's have been discovered?

And you are STILL missing the main point...The Blair /Bush administration took Britain / US to war under false pretenses.


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Edited by Rono (11/05/03 02:00 PM)


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073479 - 11/05/03 02:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I dont hold that weather they are found determines if they were there. The UN at least determined how much of each wmd they had and said that to be fact. Saddam needed to provide proof he destroyed all of them and he apparently did not do that.

And what were those false pretenses?


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073487 - 11/05/03 02:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Explain to me how you go about proving that something doesn't exist?


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073499 - 11/05/03 02:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

It was shown to be there which was believed by the UN. It was never proven to have been destroyed. That is one of the main reasons i believe the US went to war. If they were destroyed secretly or moved out of the country that changes nothing.

As for proving something doesnt exist in most circumstances it cant be done.


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073523 - 11/05/03 02:17 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I did not write this paper, or post this as an intellectual excersize or to prove whether I was a good writer or not. I'm not a writer.

if you want to just make excuses for why your work lacks accuracy, reason, or even good composition, that fine i suppose. those were just suggestions. if you truly care about being an "activist", you'll understand that your ability to persuade people via written word is rather important. if you cannot make sound arguments and deliver them eloquently, you're going to make a shitty activist.

I'm a political activist, everything I write is going to be politicized, just like everything you read. Anyone that claims their writing is unbiased, is a liar, plain and simple. As soon as a human being sits down and starts typing away, they are speaking from their own perspectives, whether they know it or not.

there are levels to the amount of bias a person writes and thinks with. minimizing it is a good idea.

now... i see that you're new here. stick around man. you'll learn things.

about the tony blair thing. the paper says these words:

according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds

NOWHERE did he actually say that. his statement said nothing about striking at the united kingdom. bias is undesirable, but when it gets to the point of blatant fabrication, it's far worse.

I'm a communist, but that doesnt mean the facts I posted are less true.

correct. your political orientation has nothing to do with the accuracy of your "facts". they're untrue all on their own.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073532 - 11/05/03 02:19 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

There really is nothing to debate here...The main reason provided by the U.S. and Britain was that an immediate invasion of Iraq was necessary to eliminate the threat of attack from Iraq with WMD's. As a result the U.N. inspectors were kicked out pre-maturely so that coalition forces could go in...to date, no WMD's have been found.

Maybe the attack was justified for other reasons than those provided, but as it stands..the reasons that were provided for going to war were lies...


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2073535 - 11/05/03 02:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

you're new here and probably haven't been around during previous discussions about communism. i am of the opinion that the rise (and inevitable failure) of communism was perhaps one of the worst human catastrophes in history.

we can start a new thread about this if you'd like... communism threads are always good fun.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2073546 - 11/05/03 02:24 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Blair didn't lie, he merely made his case using the evidence preseneted to him. The intelligence agencies compiled the dossier not the Government...

And as D33p has said it's simply one point in the entire document, the case for going to war was laid out and parliament backed it.(not hard with a 171 seat majority and the conservatives behind you).

Regardless of the 45 minute claim, the case for war was justified...


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2073577 - 11/05/03 02:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Blair didn't lie, he merely made his case using the evidence preseneted to him. The intelligence agencies compiled the dossier not the Government...



True...a little trick called "Plausible Deniability"...but I hold the opinion that he is ultimately responsible for what comes out of his own mouth. When dragging a nation into war you better make damn sure you know why.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073617 - 11/05/03 02:39 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The intelligence wasn't completley accurate, I dont think it ever is. I don't see how Blair can be blamed...


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2073640 - 11/05/03 02:44 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

**sigh**...fine...nobody did anything wrong and the world is one big happy place...


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Rono]
    #2073685 - 11/05/03 02:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The intelligence agencies made a mistake and im sure it was investigated. Blair may be a smiling camera friendly twat but he wouldn't take this country to war unless he believed it was the right thing to do. He had nothing to gain except a few grey hairs and a million people protesting in London....


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: st0nedphucker]
    #2073694 - 11/05/03 02:55 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

a mistake?...are you saying they "accidentally" plagiarized a 12 year old document?


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: d33p]
    #2074141 - 11/05/03 05:20 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Of course the dossier was not the sole cause of the war. I did not make that claim at all. It was just another tool of public deception! It was the so called "threat" of weapons of mass destruction that gave legitimacy to this war. But it was not the cause of it at all, for the reasons that the weapons never existed in the first place!

The point of my entire paper was to point out the fraudulent lies that were being told to misled people by the capitalist governments involved, and the real reasons for this war: capitalist profit.

Just a sidenote by the way, I got 88% on this paper, not that it means anything of course.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074148 - 11/05/03 05:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I'm actually not new here. This name has been active for a year, I just havent posted in a long time.

Correction: I did write this paper., I meant I did not write it as an intellectual excersize.

My information is all accurate. Except for the mistake previously pointed out, none of this is falsified intentionally. That makes a big difference then what the capitalist governments have done. Its disgusting.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074157 - 11/05/03 05:25 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Stick to the topic. I was talking about the war, not communism.

Save it for another thread.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074158 - 11/05/03 05:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


The point of my entire paper was to point out the fraudulent lies that were being told to misled people by the capitalist governments involved


In case you forgot, communist countries had an extensive history of
lying to their citizens.


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074161 - 11/05/03 05:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Just a sidenote by the way, I got 88% on this paper, not that it means anything of course.

it means a failure on the part of our educational system... apparently part of an all-too-frequent pattern of withholding constructive criticism or rejecting failure, for fear that it might hurt a student's feelings or make them feel inadequate.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074165 - 11/05/03 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

In case you forgot, communist countries had an extensive history of
lying to their citizens.


what! say it isn't so!  :smirk:

good point.  :thumbup: 


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074169 - 11/05/03 05:27 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Riiight..... Just because it doesnt correspond with your political views? That makes no sense at all.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074171 - 11/05/03 05:28 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Just a sidenote by the way, I got 88% on this paper, not that it means anything of course.

it means a failure on the part of our educational system...



Exactly right.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074182 - 11/05/03 05:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.

Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class, ever since then the gains of the 1917 revolution began to deform before completely reversing itself in 1991-1992.

All subsequent worker states (i.e China, Cuba, North Korea) were created on the stalinist USSR's image, and were deformed from the beginning.

As Marxists, we fought to defend these states, while at the same time fighting to overthrow the bureaucratic regime internally, so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074184 - 11/05/03 05:32 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Riiight..... Just because it doesnt correspond with your political views?

no. my political beliefs are beside the point

it's very poorly written. the accuracy and logical foundations (or lack thereof) of the information and conclusions aside, the composition itself is terrible.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074189 - 11/05/03 05:34 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please, besides the "45 seconds/45 minutes" discrepency, which I corrected, point out anything else that you find inaccurate.

And how does that one mistake change any of my points? It doesn't.
You just cant deal with the politics so you find one mistake to quibble over and declare everything else inaccurate.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074194 - 11/05/03 05:35 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
In case you forgot, communist countries had an extensive history of
lying to their citizens.


what! say it isn't so!  :smirk:

good point.  :thumbup: 



Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens?  Please do tell.  I'm all ears.


--------------------


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074195 - 11/05/03 05:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Please, besides the "45 seconds/45 minutes" discrepency, which I corrected, point out anything else that you find inaccurate.

that was not the discrepency. the discrepency was that you said blair said that hussein could attack the united kingdom. he said nothing of the sort.

You just cant deal with the politics so you find one mistake to quibble over and declare everything else inaccurate.

hold on a minute...


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074201 - 11/05/03 05:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074248 - 11/05/03 05:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.


My point is that you accuse governments that exist in capitalist
countries of continually lying to their citizens, yet governments
in communist countries have lied extensively and they continue
to lie(North Korea for example) to their citizens.


Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and
his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class

so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their
citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists
that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


So your point is that a true communist government has never endured,
therefore all of the horrible things that occurred under these
regimes don't count as "communist" atrocities. I remember having
this argument with you in a long past thread. When you would bring
up that point, I would always bring up the point that communism
does not have a good track record of being able to endure. Strangely
enough the initial goodwill and enthusiasm that marks a communist
society tends to be replaced by repression and dictatorship. But,
these are topics for another thread.

Silversoul had a good point. "What government HASN'T lied to its
citizens?". Whether a government exists as a dictatorship,
democracy, theocracy, monarchy, etc... some government official
somewhere will stretch the truth at some point.




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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074249 - 11/05/03 05:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.




This is false. What about Iran? or Afghanistan during the rule of the Taleban (former Mujahadeen) which the CIA assisted ? What about Chile under Pinochet which the CIA put in power?

Accusing deformed-workers states of censorship (while true) is the worst kind of hypocrisy when you ignore it elsewhere. This is hardly a characteristic of the workers states, its a characteristic of any government which fears being overthrown!

If the US really charished free speech and freedom of the press, it wouldnt be trying to implement military dictatorships in its own interest elsewhere! The only reason why these rights still exist in the imperialist centres is because these governments currently have nothing to fear, and can allow some of this freedom to continue. But that can always change (anyone remember Germany under the Nazis?).


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074260 - 11/05/03 05:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

I don't run a communist country, I dont see what your point is.


My point is that you accuse governments that exist in capitalist
countries of continually lying to their citizens, yet governments
in communist countries have lied extensively and they continue
to lie(North Korea for example) to their citizens.


Stalin murdered all the communists in the Soviet Union when him and
his bureaucracy usurped power from the working class

so it makes no sense for you to say that communists lied to their
citizens, because they did not have state power! The real communists
that ever held state power were murdered by Stalin, remember?


So your point is that a true communist government has never endured,
therefore all of the horrible things that occurred under these
regimes don't count as "communist" atrocities. I remember having
this argument with you in a long past thread. When you would bring
up that point, I would always bring up the point that communism
does not have a good track record of being able to endure. Strangely
enough the initial goodwill and enthusiasm that marks a communist
society tends to be replaced by repression and dictatorship. But,
these are topics for another thread.

Silversoul had a good point. "What government HASN'T lied to its
citizens?". Whether a government exists as a dictatorship,
democracy, theocracy, monarchy, etc... some government official
somewhere will stretch the truth at some point.







Of course they are not "communist" attrocities! Resticting free speech and murdering communists does nothing to advance the cause of socialism, nor did any of this bring any gains. Remember, it was communists that were murdered by the stalinist bureaucrats in the USSR.

Communists fight for the overthrow of these parasitic regimes, while defending the state at the same time, since the gains (though deformed) still exist in the workers states, and any reversal of it (ex. collapse of the USSR) would bring further poverty, immiseration as the imperalists rush in to take over and sell off whatever exists in the name of profit.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074271 - 11/05/03 05:57 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


mushmaster said:

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda,
suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost
invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.



This is false.


Read about the gulags in the Soviet Union. Read about the
concentration camps that still exist in North Korea for people
who dare to raise one word of dissent.


What about Iran? or Afghanistan during the rule of the Taleban
(former Mujahadeen) which the CIA assisted?


The US does have a disturbing history of meddling in the affairs
of other nations. Yet people like you rarely admit that EVERY
nation has a history of doing something unsavory in the pursuit
of its interests. Even *gasp* communist countries.


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074282 - 11/05/03 06:00 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nope. You twist my words. I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074289 - 11/05/03 06:02 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

But we are off topic here....All I was pointing out here, was this war is meant for capitalist profit, pure and simple. It hasnt brought liberation to Iraqis (if you call being shot at by US marines liberation, or having to drink sewer water liberation, your pretty fucked up), and the weapons of mass destruction are a fairy tale.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074299 - 11/05/03 06:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


Nope. You twist my words.


I was not aware I was doing that.


I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers
states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of
the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit
gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


Doesn't it speak volumes that whenever it is attempted, "true
communism" as you call it has never been able to last any
significant amount of time?


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074304 - 11/05/03 06:06 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)


But we are off topic here....


I agree.


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: Eric]
    #2074319 - 11/05/03 06:10 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

claims which are simply false:

1. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.

infrastructure is back to pre-war levels.

2. Everyday there is word of military casualties

there are not new military casualties every day.

3. according to Tony Blair?s own words, that Saddam Hussein could launch weapons at the UK in ?45 seconds

blair said nothing about hussein's ability to attack the united kingdom.



claims which are based on faulty reasoning:

1. And though the US imperialists claim to have the situation in Baghdad under control, morale in the military has dropped significantly, while suicide rates are increasing. 1. The situation in Iraq has been devastated by an ongoing war which have risen the rate of disease, and eliminated electricity and clean water in parts of the country.

it does not logically follow that because morale has dropped "significantly" and suicide rates are increasing that the situation in iraq is not under control. this is faulty reasoning.

also, you do not cite any sources for this information, or provide the actual statistics you're talking about.

2. In fact, it was because Iraq did not possess weapons of mass destruction that it was attacked. The imperialists would not have dared an invasion on Iraq had it really been true

false. if this were true, why then did the united states spearhead a coalition against the iraqis back in 1991, when we knew full well that they were sitting ontop of massive stockpiles of chemical weapons?

the bit about korea is ridiculous. korea may or may not have nuclear weapons, but they do have one of the strongest militaries in the world. fighting even a conventional war against them would be extremely bloody. also, a nuclear weapon is far more threatening than a chemical one.

3. Far from being a supposed war waged in ?good intentions? the war on Iraq, was a reactionary war for conquest which has literally turned Iraq into a colony of the United States.

just over half a year since the invasion, you've got no way of knowing yet what the US's intentions are and what the status of iraq is as far as being a "colony" of the united states. making claims you cannot support does nothing for your argument.

4. the capitalist economy systemically breeds war and destruction.
War is a necessary product of the capitalist system.


capitalism is merely an economic system which allows individuals to enter into voluntary transactions as they see fit. war is not a product of this system, nor is it necessary for ths system to function. wars of aggression are, in fact, against the very principles of capitalism.

5. Eventually the imperialists at some point get into conflict with each other, and an inter-imperialist war breaks out, of ruling powers fighting to re-divide up the world, as was horrifically demonstrated in World War I and World War II.

false. the world was, by this time, already polarizing itself between the communist east and capitalist west. the rise and fall of fascism and nationalism had little effect on it. regardless, one of your "imperialists" here are the communist forces... wait a minute... i'm having trouble remembering something... was it america... or was it the soviet union that actually annexed other nations, claiming them for their own?


there are more, but i'm not in the mood to wade through the rest of the paper. most of it is just pro-communist, anti-capitalist rot that lacks logical foundation or compositional clarity and focus. quite frankly, i haven't got the time or patience for that.


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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #2074327 - 11/05/03 06:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:

Nope. You twist my words.


I was not aware I was doing that.


I never called them communist. I said they were deformed workers
states, and I defend them while supporting the political overthrow of
the bureaucracy by the working class. And yes, they do indeed commit
gross attrocities, most notabily, against the communists.


Doesn't it speak volumes that whenever it is attempted, "true
communism" as you call it has never been able to last any
significant amount of time?





I hate repeating myself, so I'm only going to say this once.

The fight for communism, does not, i repeat DOES NOT lead to Stalinism. Stalinism emerged out of extraordinary conditions that the USSR faced (most of which was out of their control) at the time. As a result, Stalin (who personifies the interests of the bureaucracy) usurped power from the soviets (democratic working class institutions) in order to secure their own interests. This didn't happen without a fight, a lot of revolutionaries died in the gulag, and some of them were lucky enough (like Trotsky) to exile. All other socialist revolutions happening after this time period, were imitations of the deformed USSR because they were under the leadership of the Stalinist bureaucracy in the Soviet Union, which is why North Korea, China, Cuba, Vietnam, were deformed from their inception. These states, unlike the USSR, did not start off as a workers revolution, never had workers democracy, and never went through a process of degeneration.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074328 - 11/05/03 06:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.



Actually that seems to be true of totalitarian regimes in general, whether they're communist, theocratic, or fascist.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074334 - 11/05/03 06:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually that seems to be true of totalitarian regimes in general, whether they're communist, theocratic, or fascist.

true. totalitarianism, whatever the flavor, tastes pretty bad. eric is a communist (which as a side note, i must say is very cute. i remember being in high school and being a young communist. damn what a rebel i was... those were the days  :smirk:), so that's what i'm addressing here.

aw... silversoul... down to a 4? how'd that happen? you're not even an ass to people...  :wink:


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OfflineEric
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On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074338 - 11/05/03 06:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The rates of suicide amongst US soldiers in Iraq are not terribly high, but statistically they are higher than any other place US soldiers are stationed.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-13-army-suicides-usat_x.htm

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200310/23/eng20031023_126655.shtml




Its false that there are military casualties everyday? Have you been living under a rock? Even CNN does not dare make a blatently false assertion like that! US soldiers are constantly killed by car bombs, shootings.... just the other day a helicopter was shot down and 16 GIs were killed. Of course, I take a side in this war instead of remaining neutral...and its not the side of the imperialists.



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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074350 - 11/05/03 06:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually pre-stalinist USSR actually had brought more democratic rights than what Russians ever had under the rule of the tsar. Prior to 1917, you would get arrested just for saying something like "Down with the tsar!". So the assertion that communism is equal to stalinism, doesnt hold up. The Russian revolution liberated millions, most notabily, women that were given the right to vote before that right existed in most imperialist centers.


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Anonymous

Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074367 - 11/05/03 06:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Its false that there are military casualties everyday?

yes. in the month of october, there was not a single military casualty on the 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 19th, 29th, or 30th.

i don't believe there were any yet today actually.

http://www.antiwar.com/ewens/list.html < citing a source. try it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074369 - 11/05/03 06:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aw... silversoul... down to a 4? how'd that happen? you're not even an ass to people...



Some stupid puppet rated me a one for calling him a puppet. He's banned now, but his rating remains. Such is life.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074388 - 11/05/03 06:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

PM an admin. I'm fairly sure they'll delete a rating from a puppet.

While I disagree with you more often than not, a rate from a puppet should not stand.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074399 - 11/05/03 06:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise. World War I and II were examples of such, where imperialist powers fought for control of different parts of the world.

Every war, is always under some kind of justification of "democracy, freedom...etc" but those are all nice words to mask the grim realities being perpeturated.

I will quote here a US General that once said:

"Our boys were sent off to die with "beautiful ideals" painted in front of them. No one told them that "dollars and cents" were the real reason they were marching off to "kill and die"."--Gen. Smedley Butler, 1934


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Anonymous

Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074459 - 11/05/03 06:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

face it. you just can't deal with the reality that the ba'ath regime was terrible for the people of iraq and that they will most likely be better off without it, regardless of the motives of the united states for attacking. (you also don't seem upfront enough to admit when you have made false statements).

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise.

poor reasoning. capitalism is a system in which people make VOLUNTARY transactions. violently attacking someone no part of it. market competition and violence are two very different things.

enough of this for me... i've got better things to do. this is a waste of my time. you seem to have absorbed more propaganda in the past few years than most do in a lifetime. your mind is made up, and reason or truth doesn't seem to phase you. later.


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OfflineEric
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074494 - 11/05/03 07:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

actually i can acknowledge that.

face it. you just can't deal with the reality that the ba'ath regime was terrible for the people of iraq and that they will most likely be better off without it, regardless of the motives of the united states for attacking. (you also don't seem upfront enough to admit when you have made false statements).

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise.

poor reasoning. capitalism is a system in which people make VOLUNTARY transactions. violently attacking someone no part of it. market competition and violence are two very different things.

enough of this for me... i've got better things to do. this is a waste of my time. you seem to have absorbed more propaganda in the past few years than most do in a lifetime. your mind is made up, and reason or truth doesn't seem to phase you. later.




Actually the Ba'athist regime was a creation of US/UK imperialism. And I am well aware of all their crimes, which were originally committed in the service of imperialism. Saddam Hussein only became an "evil dictator" when he stopped listening to Washington. And I'm no supporter of the Ba'athists in Iraq, though I defend Iraq against the imperialists.

Voluntary transactions?!?! So I guess the wholesale of resources in Iraq was all voluntary? Thats pure bullshit.


Edited by Eric (11/05/03 07:07 PM)


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074694 - 11/05/03 07:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise. World War I and II were examples of such, where imperialist powers fought for control of different parts of the world.

1914 Germany was Capitalist? The German National Socialist Party (Nazis) was Capitalist? North Korea was Capitalist? Imperial Japan was Capitalist? North Viet Nam was Capitalist? Ba'athist Iraq was Capitalist?

Why don't you give us an example of a war of conquest (Imperialism, in other words) started in the last hundred years by a capitalist country?

pinky


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2074709 - 11/05/03 07:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level. Germany was facing a socialist revolution internally, and the ruling class of Germany handing power over to the fascists was the only way to save capitalism. Fascism is the continuation of capitalism when it can no longer be maintained through democratic means.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074770 - 11/05/03 08:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Eric said:
Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.



I guess that makes communist countries capitalist as well. After all, each one is just one big capitalist enterprise controlled by 'the collective.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074774 - 11/05/03 08:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.

So sorry, you are incorrect. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian quasi-socialist state. To be accurate, a Fascist state.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.

You said Capitalism breeds war. It doesn't. Totalitarianism breeds war. You said Capitalism leads to shooting wars. It doesn't. I ask again, please name a shooting war (a war of conquest; i.e. imperialism) in the last hundred years started by a capitalist nation. WWI and WWII were not started by capitalist nations. Nor was the Viet Nam war, nor the Korean war, nor Iraq's war with Iran or Kuwait.

pinky


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2076179 - 11/06/03 05:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.

So sorry, you are incorrect. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian quasi-socialist state. To be accurate, a Fascist state.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.

You said Capitalism breeds war. It doesn't. Totalitarianism breeds war. You said Capitalism leads to shooting wars. It doesn't. I ask again, please name a shooting war (a war of conquest; i.e. imperialism) in the last hundred years started by a capitalist nation. WWI and WWII were not started by capitalist nations. Nor was the Viet Nam war, nor the Korean war, nor Iraq's war with Iran or Kuwait.

pinky




Nazi Germany was capitalist. The fascists smashed working class organizations in Germany, plummetted wages, and managed capitalist industry on behalf of the ruling class. The difference with this and other deformed-worker states is that the property of the ruling class was not expropriated like it should have been! Thats why Hitler was supported, and tolerated by the imperialists in the first few years the fascists held power. In fact, they wanted Nazi-Germany to defeat the USSR. Winston Churchill, shortly after the defeat of the nazis grotesquely proclaimed "we killed the wrong pig".

Capitalism does breed war. You're just in denial. Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism? Vietnam war was started by Vietnam? So it wasn't the US that made false reports that a US naval unit was torpedoed on in the Gulf of Tonkin as a false justification for the war? Wasn't the Vietnam war fought in the capitalist interests to "stop the spread of communism" ?

You should probably learn up on your history. Its not my responsibility to teach you facts you have wrong.

And by the way, I said Capitalism breed wars, I never said capitalism was the cause of all wars! Theres a difference in the two logics.


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2076428 - 11/06/03 08:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why don't you give us an example of a war of conquest (Imperialism, in other words) started in the last hundred years by a capitalist country?




Afghanistan and Iraq..


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/06/03 08:32 AM)


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2077059 - 11/06/03 12:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist.

Not even close. Read some history.

Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism?

Nope. It was not a war of conquest, nor imperialism. It was a war to depose a totalitarian dictator and allow the Iraqi people to run their own nation.

Vietnam war was started by Vietnam?

Yep. Read some history. The Viet Minh (later the NVA assisted by the Viet Cong) started things off. The US didn't start the war -- it had been going for quite some time before they got involved.

And by the way, I said Capitalism breed wars, I never said capitalism was the cause of all wars!

Yet you are unable to give us an example of a war of conquest (imperialism) started by a capitalist nation in the last hundred years. Okay, then.

pinky


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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Rono]
    #2077088 - 11/06/03 01:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Rono writes:

Afghanistan and Iraq.

Neither was an imperialist war, a war of conquest.

The US didn't conquer Afghanistan. It certainly isn't "occupying" it. As a matter of fact, there are a hell of a lot of people pissed off at the US for not occupying it; instead leaving the majority of the country to the various factions. Afghanistan is scheduled to produce its new constitution in December, hold free elections in June. This is "imperialism"? Note also that the invasion of Afghanistan was a UN thing -- it was no single nation, capitalist or otherwise, who decided to go in and take over the country.

Iraq -- same thing. The Iraqis will adopt a constitution, hold elections, and get on with running their own country. This is "imperialism"?

By the way, there's a mere fourteen months left before you'll have to pay off on our bet. There's no way in the world that Bush will invade Saudi Arabia by the end of 2004. Fifty bucks Canadian heading my way. *rubs hands in blatant and offensive display of Capitalist greed*

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Registered: 02/25/01
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2077151 - 11/06/03 01:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nazi Germany was capitalist

Remember how gleefully the corporations latched onto the concentration camps? Auschwitz was capitalist heaven.

Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism?

Yep. Along with the other 50 military interventions since WW2. Installing puppet regimes is booming business.


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OfflineRonoS
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Registered: 01/25/01
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2077188 - 11/06/03 01:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

By the way, there's a mere fourteen months left before you'll have to pay off on our bet. There's no way in the world that Bush will invade Saudi Arabia by the end of 2004. Fifty bucks Canadian heading my way. *rubs hands in blatant and offensive display of Capitalist greed*




It'll happen...and I'll have many drinks in your honour...


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"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2078049 - 11/06/03 06:13 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Eric said:
Capitalism does breed war. You're just in denial.



Silly child, wars existed before capitalism, wars are waged by non capitalist entities. The causes of war are much more basic; wanting more space for the aggressor's population, wanting to control resources in another country's territory, etc.. Hell, wars have even been fought over women. You need some intellectual glasses because you are hella myopic in the brain department. Try doing some thinking instead of parroting simple minded propaganda that makes you have wet dreams of utopia.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Anonymous

Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Evolving]
    #2078107 - 11/06/03 06:36 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

indeed.


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