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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Posts: 27,301
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074328 - 11/05/03 06:14 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Are you saying there's countries that DON'T have an extensive history of lying to their citizens? Please do tell. I'm all ears.

communist nations have been the worst offenders. propaganda, suppression of free speech and the press, and the like, have almost invariably been a central tenet of communist regimes everywhere.



Actually that seems to be true of totalitarian regimes in general, whether they're communist, theocratic, or fascist.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074334 - 11/05/03 06:18 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually that seems to be true of totalitarian regimes in general, whether they're communist, theocratic, or fascist.

true. totalitarianism, whatever the flavor, tastes pretty bad. eric is a communist (which as a side note, i must say is very cute. i remember being in high school and being a young communist. damn what a rebel i was... those were the days  :smirk:), so that's what i'm addressing here.

aw... silversoul... down to a 4? how'd that happen? you're not even an ass to people...  :wink:


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OfflineEric
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Registered: 12/28/02
Posts: 61
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On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074338 - 11/05/03 06:21 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

The rates of suicide amongst US soldiers in Iraq are not terribly high, but statistically they are higher than any other place US soldiers are stationed.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2003-10-13-army-suicides-usat_x.htm

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/200310/23/eng20031023_126655.shtml




Its false that there are military casualties everyday? Have you been living under a rock? Even CNN does not dare make a blatently false assertion like that! US soldiers are constantly killed by car bombs, shootings.... just the other day a helicopter was shot down and 16 GIs were killed. Of course, I take a side in this war instead of remaining neutral...and its not the side of the imperialists.



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OfflineEric
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074350 - 11/05/03 06:26 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Actually pre-stalinist USSR actually had brought more democratic rights than what Russians ever had under the rule of the tsar. Prior to 1917, you would get arrested just for saying something like "Down with the tsar!". So the assertion that communism is equal to stalinism, doesnt hold up. The Russian revolution liberated millions, most notabily, women that were given the right to vote before that right existed in most imperialist centers.


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Anonymous

Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074367 - 11/05/03 06:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Its false that there are military casualties everyday?

yes. in the month of october, there was not a single military casualty on the 2nd, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th, 10th, 11th, 14th, 15th, 19th, 29th, or 30th.

i don't believe there were any yet today actually.

http://www.antiwar.com/ewens/list.html < citing a source. try it.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: ]
    #2074369 - 11/05/03 06:33 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

aw... silversoul... down to a 4? how'd that happen? you're not even an ass to people...



Some stupid puppet rated me a one for calling him a puppet. He's banned now, but his rating remains. Such is life.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,244
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: The Deadly Truth of Imperialism [Re: silversoul7]
    #2074388 - 11/05/03 06:37 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

PM an admin. I'm fairly sure they'll delete a rating from a puppet.

While I disagree with you more often than not, a rate from a puppet should not stand.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineEric
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074399 - 11/05/03 06:41 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise. World War I and II were examples of such, where imperialist powers fought for control of different parts of the world.

Every war, is always under some kind of justification of "democracy, freedom...etc" but those are all nice words to mask the grim realities being perpeturated.

I will quote here a US General that once said:

"Our boys were sent off to die with "beautiful ideals" painted in front of them. No one told them that "dollars and cents" were the real reason they were marching off to "kill and die"."--Gen. Smedley Butler, 1934


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Anonymous

Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074459 - 11/05/03 06:58 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

face it. you just can't deal with the reality that the ba'ath regime was terrible for the people of iraq and that they will most likely be better off without it, regardless of the motives of the united states for attacking. (you also don't seem upfront enough to admit when you have made false statements).

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise.

poor reasoning. capitalism is a system in which people make VOLUNTARY transactions. violently attacking someone no part of it. market competition and violence are two very different things.

enough of this for me... i've got better things to do. this is a waste of my time. you seem to have absorbed more propaganda in the past few years than most do in a lifetime. your mind is made up, and reason or truth doesn't seem to phase you. later.


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OfflineEric
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: ]
    #2074494 - 11/05/03 07:05 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mushmaster said:
Face it. You just cant deal with the reality that Iraq is a US de-facto colony, under military occupation, while industries and resources are sold to the highest bidder.

actually i can acknowledge that.

face it. you just can't deal with the reality that the ba'ath regime was terrible for the people of iraq and that they will most likely be better off without it, regardless of the motives of the united states for attacking. (you also don't seem upfront enough to admit when you have made false statements).

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise.

poor reasoning. capitalism is a system in which people make VOLUNTARY transactions. violently attacking someone no part of it. market competition and violence are two very different things.

enough of this for me... i've got better things to do. this is a waste of my time. you seem to have absorbed more propaganda in the past few years than most do in a lifetime. your mind is made up, and reason or truth doesn't seem to phase you. later.




Actually the Ba'athist regime was a creation of US/UK imperialism. And I am well aware of all their crimes, which were originally committed in the service of imperialism. Saddam Hussein only became an "evil dictator" when he stopped listening to Washington. And I'm no supporter of the Ba'athists in Iraq, though I defend Iraq against the imperialists.

Voluntary transactions?!?! So I guess the wholesale of resources in Iraq was all voluntary? Thats pure bullshit.


Edited by Eric (11/05/03 07:07 PM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074694 - 11/05/03 07:49 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Capitalism does indeed breed war. Capitalism is based on competition of different capitalists, on an international scale, its a competition of different imperialists, which leads to trade wars, and eventually shooting wars as conflicts arise. World War I and II were examples of such, where imperialist powers fought for control of different parts of the world.

1914 Germany was Capitalist? The German National Socialist Party (Nazis) was Capitalist? North Korea was Capitalist? Imperial Japan was Capitalist? North Viet Nam was Capitalist? Ba'athist Iraq was Capitalist?

Why don't you give us an example of a war of conquest (Imperialism, in other words) started in the last hundred years by a capitalist country?

pinky


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OfflineEric
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2074709 - 11/05/03 07:53 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level. Germany was facing a socialist revolution internally, and the ruling class of Germany handing power over to the fascists was the only way to save capitalism. Fascism is the continuation of capitalism when it can no longer be maintained through democratic means.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074770 - 11/05/03 08:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Eric said:
Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.



I guess that makes communist countries capitalist as well. After all, each one is just one big capitalist enterprise controlled by 'the collective.'


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2074774 - 11/05/03 08:07 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.

So sorry, you are incorrect. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian quasi-socialist state. To be accurate, a Fascist state.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.

You said Capitalism breeds war. It doesn't. Totalitarianism breeds war. You said Capitalism leads to shooting wars. It doesn't. I ask again, please name a shooting war (a war of conquest; i.e. imperialism) in the last hundred years started by a capitalist nation. WWI and WWII were not started by capitalist nations. Nor was the Viet Nam war, nor the Korean war, nor Iraq's war with Iran or Kuwait.

pinky


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OfflineEric
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2076179 - 11/06/03 05:08 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist, it was capitalism on a state level.

So sorry, you are incorrect. Nazi Germany was a totalitarian quasi-socialist state. To be accurate, a Fascist state.

China, North Korea, Vietnam, Cuba, are not capitalist, so I dont know what the hell your talking about. You better clarify.

You said Capitalism breeds war. It doesn't. Totalitarianism breeds war. You said Capitalism leads to shooting wars. It doesn't. I ask again, please name a shooting war (a war of conquest; i.e. imperialism) in the last hundred years started by a capitalist nation. WWI and WWII were not started by capitalist nations. Nor was the Viet Nam war, nor the Korean war, nor Iraq's war with Iran or Kuwait.

pinky




Nazi Germany was capitalist. The fascists smashed working class organizations in Germany, plummetted wages, and managed capitalist industry on behalf of the ruling class. The difference with this and other deformed-worker states is that the property of the ruling class was not expropriated like it should have been! Thats why Hitler was supported, and tolerated by the imperialists in the first few years the fascists held power. In fact, they wanted Nazi-Germany to defeat the USSR. Winston Churchill, shortly after the defeat of the nazis grotesquely proclaimed "we killed the wrong pig".

Capitalism does breed war. You're just in denial. Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism? Vietnam war was started by Vietnam? So it wasn't the US that made false reports that a US naval unit was torpedoed on in the Gulf of Tonkin as a false justification for the war? Wasn't the Vietnam war fought in the capitalist interests to "stop the spread of communism" ?

You should probably learn up on your history. Its not my responsibility to teach you facts you have wrong.

And by the way, I said Capitalism breed wars, I never said capitalism was the cause of all wars! Theres a difference in the two logics.


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2076428 - 11/06/03 08:30 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Why don't you give us an example of a war of conquest (Imperialism, in other words) started in the last hundred years by a capitalist country?




Afghanistan and Iraq..


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


Edited by Rono (11/06/03 08:32 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2077059 - 11/06/03 12:54 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Eric writes:

Nazi Germany was capitalist.

Not even close. Read some history.

Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism?

Nope. It was not a war of conquest, nor imperialism. It was a war to depose a totalitarian dictator and allow the Iraqi people to run their own nation.

Vietnam war was started by Vietnam?

Yep. Read some history. The Viet Minh (later the NVA assisted by the Viet Cong) started things off. The US didn't start the war -- it had been going for quite some time before they got involved.

And by the way, I said Capitalism breed wars, I never said capitalism was the cause of all wars!

Yet you are unable to give us an example of a war of conquest (imperialism) started by a capitalist nation in the last hundred years. Okay, then.

pinky


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OfflinePhred
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Rono]
    #2077088 - 11/06/03 01:03 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Rono writes:

Afghanistan and Iraq.

Neither was an imperialist war, a war of conquest.

The US didn't conquer Afghanistan. It certainly isn't "occupying" it. As a matter of fact, there are a hell of a lot of people pissed off at the US for not occupying it; instead leaving the majority of the country to the various factions. Afghanistan is scheduled to produce its new constitution in December, hold free elections in June. This is "imperialism"? Note also that the invasion of Afghanistan was a UN thing -- it was no single nation, capitalist or otherwise, who decided to go in and take over the country.

Iraq -- same thing. The Iraqis will adopt a constitution, hold elections, and get on with running their own country. This is "imperialism"?

By the way, there's a mere fourteen months left before you'll have to pay off on our bet. There's no way in the world that Bush will invade Saudi Arabia by the end of 2004. Fifty bucks Canadian heading my way. *rubs hands in blatant and offensive display of Capitalist greed*

pinky


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Eric]
    #2077151 - 11/06/03 01:23 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Nazi Germany was capitalist

Remember how gleefully the corporations latched onto the concentration camps? Auschwitz was capitalist heaven.

Wasn't there just a war seven months ago fought in the interests of capitalism?

Yep. Along with the other 50 military interventions since WW2. Installing puppet regimes is booming business.


--------------------
Don't worry, B. Caapi


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OfflineRonoS
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Re: On Suicide Rates in Iraq, Military Casualties [Re: Phred]
    #2077188 - 11/06/03 01:31 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

By the way, there's a mere fourteen months left before you'll have to pay off on our bet. There's no way in the world that Bush will invade Saudi Arabia by the end of 2004. Fifty bucks Canadian heading my way. *rubs hands in blatant and offensive display of Capitalist greed*




It'll happen...and I'll have many drinks in your honour...


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"


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