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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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"Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis
    #20546232 -

I know some of you have tried this in different guises and several occasions, and I am looking for directions. I tried Anne's suggestion of using PP containers and changing the water weekly, which would deal with most of the problems re: aeration and micro-nutrient depletion BUT one thing I am probably missing is the correct dosage. I am currently working with a solution of roughly equal N-P-K proportions at about 100 p.p.m. N (with added micro-nutrients as well). The growth is unimpressive, compared to some cuttings I started at about the same time in pots, conventionally. They're all sitting on the same windowsill and while the potted cuttings don't run laps around the hydro, they're looking a lot better, larger, stronger and more densely leaved.

What am I missing here?

Cheers.


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Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20546521 -

Those 'hydro' pereskiopsis are not ment to look that strong but rather be a root system. Assuming they are already rooted I would increase the npk to 200 ppm as salt buildup will not be a problem. The pereskiopsis will take up a massive amount of water and nutrients as hydro but the roots are always weaker/smaller than in soil. When grafted upon however the root stock does an excellent job as a constant nute supply due to the plant converting to C3 from CAM.

I suggested this to anna but I'm not sure she picked up on it. Try using a media to give the roots more structure. The finer the better leading to more root tips. It will be more difficult to change the water without damaging the root though. Perhaps even adding some IPA may help the roots develop better im hydro.


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: modern.shaman]
    #20546724 -

modern.shaman said:
Those 'hydro' pereskiopsis are not ment to look that strong but rather be a root system. Assuming they are already rooted I would increase the npk to 200 ppm as salt buildup will not be a problem. The pereskiopsis will take up a massive amount of water and nutrients as hydro but the roots are always weaker/smaller than in soil. When grafted upon however the root stock does an excellent job as a constant nute supply due to the plant converting to C3 from CAM.

I suggested this to anna but I'm not sure she picked up on it. Try using a media to give the roots more structure. The finer the better leading to more root tips. It will be more difficult to change the water without damaging the root though. Perhaps even adding some IPA may help the roots develop better im hydro.


Thank you, I'll start to use the higher N rating on the next water change. :smile:

I understand what you say. I was assuming that the vigour of the aerial part was an indication of the the ability to pump nutes from the soil/water to the tip, but you're right in noting that it's the efficiency as a stock that matters (and I have no experience with hydro grafts).

The root "net" is dense and exchanging the water fast and easy. I don't care much with broken roots. I'll make a note and try to take a picture later.

And please, what is IPA? :$


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20546748 -

Isopropyl Alcohol


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: Mostly_Harmless]
    #20546799 -

Sorry ment IBA dont use alcohol.


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: modern.shaman]
    #20546804 -

Ah, thanks. :laugh:


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20551585 -

Here's my "setup". PP5 container, about 3" mouth, 3 holes drilled in the lid. Since the whole is placed on a windowsill (outside, actually. This is Lisbon, our winters are pretty mild temperature wise), I had the idea of wrapping the whole thing on aluminium foil so algae would not take over.



Two things about this: the foil eventually rips because the lid snaps in place and snapping it open (albeit very carefully) will stress the foil to the point of tearing. And this is just for ONE container, imagine if I had to carefully snap open a dozen or so, it would take me ages to change the water. The other thing is while light is tremendously reduced, some eventually makes it to the solution through the gaps between the stems and the holes, and that minuscule amount is enough for the algae. If I decide to follow this course, I may end up painting the containers with a thick coat of white paint (or else they will heat up in the sun and turn the Peres to soup).

Now, here's what it looks like in the inside and after removing from the container.




I say this is a fair amount of roots (even for three plants), what do you think?

(forgive the lousy quality of the pictures, I was in a rush)


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20551653 -

Very interesting. I have think about could it benefit to build small bubbler/hydro (similar to cannabis growers use) and constantly pumping air in the water.

Pereskiopsis may have massive growth speed like cannabis if nutrient solution is just right.

I just haven't tested it, only I know about when cannabis cuttings are rooted, it's easy to add rockwool cube to water tray where small air pump bubbling the water.. Roots grow faster than cuttings what are in still water.

Maybe pereskiopsis would benefit lots from real bubbler/hydro water farm where is constantly moving fertilized water.

I have been satisfied to coco+rock/perlite to pereskiopsis plants and I think they grow too fast already. This have been in my mind some time. About building some bubbler water grow for pereskiopsis and do some own tests.. Or if I have time and money to do so I would want to try how similar waterfarm works to pereskiopsis what have been used long time for cannabis. It's very important to keep roots in dark and water at constant move so there is always oxygen. Basically breaking the surface of water with water pump what are underwater works. I have grow cannabis the way I have only one water pump/container and it just bubble the surface to oxidize the water for plants.

Pereskiopsis is for sure tough and fun plant to do some test. I have only one pot full of pereskiopsis in soil and I take cuttings as much I need and it grows fast enough back. Usually it's bigger after cut because it grow branches so much.

If I ever try waterfarm for pereskiopsis, I may post some stuff there.. First of all I still need to figure out the ratio of fertilizers and so on.. Or I just keep pereskiopsis in soil and take cuttings whenever I need for grafting.:tongue2:

Lsoares: About that foil, I do always similar way with cuttings need water to root. I try to avoid all light from to roots..  :thumbup:

Have you tried oxidizing the water with air/water pump?


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: intelligentlife]
    #20551680 -

intelligentlife said:
Have you tried oxidizing the water with air/water pump?


The whole solution is changed weekly, there's no need to oxygenate more. Besides, that would complicate the setup too much.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20551698 -

LSoares said:
intelligentlife said:
Have you tried oxidizing the water with air/water pump?


The whole solution is changed weekly, there's no need to oxygenate more. Besides, that would complicate the setup too much.


I was think about because cannabis growers never let their plants be at still water so I got idea about could it pereskiopsis be speed up more or do they even suffer by being in still water few days. Atleast I know cannabis dies easy if water circulation stops.. Once my waterpump just broke when I was growing in water bubbler and plant almost die for it, luckily I got new underwater pump from my friend to get crop finished.

And yes, it's big effort to build pereskiopsis hydro if happens they just don't grow any faster.:lol:

Anyway, cannabis and pereskiopsis sure are very different plants and I can't know how pereskiopsis will act in water bubbler.


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: intelligentlife]
    #20551770 -

Well plants need water, nutrients, co2 and light.  Limit any one of those factors and you limit growth, increase any one of those factors and you increase growth.  The soil a plant is in mainly serves 2 purpose, to anchor the plant and to feed the plant with the nutes in the soil.  With hydro you anchor the plant in your medium of choice (perlite, vermiculite, hydroton) and supply the nutrients in the water.  Most land based plants need oxygen for their roots (which is what leads to root rot in poor draining soils).  By supplying the plant with a super oxygenated environment with all of the water and nutes it wants you can increase growth rate (basically an all you can eat buffet).  IL your coco+rocks/perlite mix would be considered a soilless grow (a very low tech form of hydroponics).

From what I've seen with peres they don't exactly need the help with speed of growth, but if you established your cuttings with intention of using them as grafting stock in a deep water cukture system (container with netpot in lid to hold plant, airpump with air stone in the bottom) once grafted, the speed of growth from hydro should transfer over to the scion.  This would limit the potential for root rot in an own root trichocereus placed into a hydro set up since the peres can handle more water than trichs.  I posted this in the trichocereus united thread, but I'll repost it here since we're talking cacti and hydro.

MrGiraffe said:
Took it out of the red solo, rinsed as much of the dirt off of the roots as possible and put it into a 3" netpot with pea gravel and perlite.  With the slots in the net pot, it will probably end up being just pea gravel before it's all said and done.


I've got the airstone running to remove any chlorine from the tap water.  It tested out at 65 ppms and 6.65 ph from the tap.  Tomorrow, I'll mix in some nutrients and put the net pot where the red solo cup is, it's there to keep light out of the reservoir.  It's a 4 gallon sterilite.  Holds about 2 gallons, I've got it off center so I don't have to keep the entire thing under the light, and if the project fails, I can put 5 more holes in it and use it for hydroponic lettuce.



I just took some cuttings of peres and put them in perlite yesterday, maybe I'll build another smaller mini dwc system to give this a try with some hybrid trich seedlings I have going.


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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: MrGiraffe]
    #20555746 -

I tried rooting a few cuttings of peres in a cup of water without nutrients for 2 weeks, no signs of roots, I also tried it with 10-15-10 fertilizer with no effect.  I'm not sure what the ppm was but I was expecting some roots, and got nothing.  I put them in soil and they took off like rockets.  I would like to get the hydro technique down.

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: invitro]
    #20556149 -

Quote:
invitro said:I would like to get the hydro technique down.


I don't know if I can help you with that, I just followed the [loose] instructions a former member of the Shroomery wrote somewhere - PP5 containers with holes drilled on the lids, 10-10-10 fertilizer/tap water solution (strength undefined) changed weekly. Either you're doing something basically wrong or I simply got lucky, because all I did was cut off the bottom leaves of three cuttings (maybe an inch) and put them in the water. Out of my head I would guess the bottom tip was ~1cm submerged. I don't believe lack of fertilizer would make any difference to root initiation.

EDIT: now I think about it, wrapping the container in foil may make some difference by reducing light intensity at the stem level.


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.

Edited by LSoares (09/12/14 02:00 AM)

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Re: "Hydroponic" Pereskiopsis [Re: LSoares]
    #20556495 -

Hmm I had mine in a glass 1/2 pint jar, with an inch of water, I changed water weekly and didn't do anything to block sunlight.  Maybe blocking light is the key?  If that fails, probably I could just root them in an inch of soil then go bare-root from there one I have some roots.

Edited by invitro (09/12/14 06:28 AM)

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics > The Ethnobotanical Garden
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