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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Any christians in the house?
Explain please? ![]() 1. God is satisfied with his works Gen 1:31 God is dissatisfied with his works. Gen 6:6 2. God dwells in chosen temples 2 Chron 7:12,16 God dwells not in temples Acts 7:48 3. God dwells in light Tim 6:16 God dwells in darkness 1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2 4. God is seen and heard Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/ Ex 24:9-11 God is invisible and cannot be heard John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16 5. God is tired and rests Ex 31:17 God is never tired and never rests Is 40:28 6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21 God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8 7. God knows the hearts of men Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3 God tries men to find out what is in their heart Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12 8. God is all powerful Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26 God is not all powerful Judg 1:19 9. God is unchangeable James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19 God is changeable Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/ Ex 33:1,3,17,14 10. God is just and impartial Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25 God is unjust and partial Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12 11. God is the author of evil Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25 God is not the author of evil 1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13 12. God gives freely to those who ask James 1:5/ Luke 11:10 God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving them John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17 13. God is to be found by those who seek him Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17 God is not to be found by those who seek him Prov 1:28 14. God is warlike Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15 God is peaceful Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33 15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19 God is kind, merciful, and good James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/ 1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8 16. God's anger is fierce and endures long Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4 God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5 17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings, sacrifices ,and holy days Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9 God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings, sacrifices, and holy days. Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12 18. God accepts human sacrifices 2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39 God forbids human sacrifice Deut 12:30,31 19. God tempts men Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13 God tempts no man James 1:13 20. God cannot lie Heb 6:18 God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits to deceive 2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9 21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him Gen 6:5,7 Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him Gen 8:21 22. God's attributes are revealed in his works. Rom 1:20 God's attributes cannot be discovered Job 11:7/ Is 40:28 23. There is but one God Deut 6:4 There is a plurality of gods Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7 Moral Precepts 24. Robbery commanded Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36 Robbery forbidden Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15 25. Lying approved and sanctioned Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22 Lying forbidden Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8 26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned 2 Kings 14:7,3 Hatred to the Edomite forbidden Deut 23:7 27. Killing commanded Ex 32:27 Killing forbidden Ex 20:13 28. The blood-shedder must die Gen 9:5,6 The blood-shedder must not die Gen 4:15 29. The making of images forbidden Ex 20:4 The making of images commanded Ex 25:18,20 30. Slavery and oppression ordained Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8 Slavery and oppression forbidden Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10 31. Improvidence enjoyed Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3 Improvidence condemned 1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22 32. Anger approved Eph 4:26 Anger disapproved Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20 33. Good works to be seen of men Matt 5:16 Good works not to be seen of men Matt 6:1 34. Judging of others forbidden Matt 7:1,2 Judging of others approved 1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12 35. Christ taught non-resistance Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52 Christ taught and practiced physical resistance Luke 22:36/ John 2:15 36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed Luke 12:4 Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed John 7:1 37. Public prayer sanctioned 1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3 Public prayer disapproved Matt 6:5,6 38. Importunity in prayer commended Luke 18:5,7 Importunity in prayer condemned Matt 6:7,8 39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5 The wearing of long hair by men condemned 1 Cor 11:14 40. Circumcision instituted Gen 17:10 Circumcision condemned Gal 5:2 41. The Sabbath instituted Ex 20:8 The Sabbath repudiated Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16 42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day Ex 20:11 The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites out of Egypt Deut 5:15 43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36 Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in the same John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5 44. Baptism commanded Matt 28:19 Baptism not commanded 1 Cor 1:17,14 45. Every kind of animal allowed for food. Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14 Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food. Deut 14:7,8 46. Taking of oaths sanctioned Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13 Taking of oaths forbidden Matt 5:34 47. Marriage approved Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4 Marriage disapproved 1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8 48. Freedom of divorce permitted Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14 Divorce restricted Matt 5:32 49. Adultery forbidden Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4 Adultery allowed Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3 50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17 Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16 51. A man may marry his brother's widow Deut 25:5 A man may not marry his brother's widow Lev 20:21 52. Hatred to kindred enjoined Luke 14:26 Hatred to kindred condemned Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29 53. Intoxicating beverages recommended Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15 Intoxicating beverages discountenanced Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32 54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers and punish evil doers only Rom 13:1-3,6 It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/ Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35 55. Women's rights denied Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6 Women's rights affirmed Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9 56. Obedience to masters enjoined Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18 Obedience due to God only Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10 57. There is an unpardonable sin Mark 3:29 There is not unpardonable sin Acts 13:39 Historical Facts 58. Man was created after the other animals Gen 1:25,26,27 Man was created before the other animals Gen 2:18,19 59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease Gen 8:22 Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6 60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12 Pharaoh hardened his own heart Ex 8:15 61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9 All the horses of Egypt did not die Ex 14:9 62. Moses feared Pharaoh Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19 Moses did not fear Pharaoh Heb 11:27 63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand Num 25:9 There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand 1 Cor 10:8 64. John the Baptist was Elias Matt 11:14 John the Baptist was not Elias John 1:21 65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob Matt 1:16 The father of Mary's husband was Heli Luke 3:23 66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad Gen 11:12 The father of Salah was Cainan Luke 3:35,36 67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David Matt 1:2-6 68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to Christ. Matt 1:17 There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian captivity to Christ Matt 1:12-16 69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23 The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt Luke 2:22, 39 70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness Mark 1:12,13 Christ was not tempted in the wilderness John 2:1,2 71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount Matt 5:1,2 Christ preached his first sermon on the plain Luke 6:17,20 72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee Mark 1:14 John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee John 1:43/ John 3:22-24 73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff and sandals Mark 6:8,9 Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither staffs nor sandals. Matt 10:9,10 74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus Matt 15:22 It was a Greek woman who besought Him Mark 7:26 75. Two blind men besought Jesus Matt 20:30 Only one blind man besought Him Luke 18:35,38 76. Christ was crucified at the third hour Mark 15:25 Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour John 19:14,15 77. The two thieves reviled Christ. Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32 Only one of the thieves reviled Christ Luke 23:39,40 78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper John 13:27 Satan entered into him before the supper Luke 22:3,4,7 79. Judas committed suicide by hanging Matt 27:5 Judas did not hang himself, but died another way Acts 1:18 80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas Acts 1:18 The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests Matt 27:6,7 81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre John 20:1 There were two women who came to the sepulchre Matt 28:1 82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre Mark 16:1 There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre Luke 24:10 83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre Mark 16:2 It was some time before sunrise when they came. John 20:1 84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and they were standing up. Luke 24:4 There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down. Matt 28:2,5 85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre. John 20:11,12 There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre Mark 16:5 86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave Matt 12:40 Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9> 87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost Acts 1:8,5 Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost John 20:22 88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the resurrection to go into Galilee Matt 28:10 The disciples were commanded immediately after the resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem Luke 24:49 89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at Jerusalem Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19 Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee Matt 28:16,17 90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet Acts 1:9,12 Christ ascended from Bethany Luke 24:50,51 91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood speechless Acts 9:7 Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate Acts 26:14 92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan Gen 12:5 Abraham went not knowing where Heb 11:8 93. Abraham had two sons Gal 4:22 Abraham had but one son Heb 11:17 94. Keturah was Abraham's wife Gen 25:1 Keturah was Abraham's concubine 1 Chron 1:32 95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the interposition of Providence Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12 Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years old without any interposition of providence Gen 25:1,2 96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor Josh 24:32 Abraham bought it of Hamor Acts 7:16 97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed forever Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8 Abraham and his seed never received the promised land Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13 98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan 2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be correct. Original manuscript was incorrect> The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan 1 Chron 20:5 99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram 2 Kings 8:25 Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram 2 Kings 9:29 100. Michal had no child 2 Sam 6:23 Michal had five children 2 Sam 21:8 101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel 2 Sam 24:1 David was tempted by Satan to number the people 1 Chron 21:1 102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of Judah 500,000 2 Sam 24:9 The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of Judah 470,000 1 Chron 21:5 103. David sinned in numbering the people 2 Sam 24:10 David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah 1 Kings 15:5 104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of famine. 2 Sam 24:13 It was not seven years, but three years of famine 1 Chron 21:11,12 105. David took seven hundred horsemen 2 Sam 8:4 David took seven thousand horsemen 1 Chron 18:4 106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver 2 Sam 24:24 David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of gold 1 Chron 21:25 107. David's throne was to endure forever. Ps 89:35-37 David's throne was cast down Ps 89:44 Speculative Doctrines 108. Christ is equal with God John 10:30/ Phil 2:5 Christ is not equal with God John 14:28/ Matt 24:36 109. Jesus was all-powerful Matt 28:18/ John 3:35 Jesus was not all-powerful Mark 6:5 110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6 The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation Matt 5:17-19 111. Christ's mission was peace Luke 2:13,14 Christ's mission was not peace Matt 10:34 112. Christ received not testimony from man John 5:33,34 Christ did receive testimony from man John 15:27 113. Christ's witness of himself is true. John 8:18,14 Christ's witness of himself is not true. John 5:31 114. Christ laid down his life for his friends John 15:13/ John 10:11 Christ laid down his life for his enemies Rom 5:10 115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death John 19:7 It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death John 18:31 116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents Ex 20:5 Children are not punished for the sins of the parents Ezek 18:20 117. Man is justified by faith alone Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2 Man is not justified by faith alone James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13 118. It is impossible to fall from grace John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39 It is possible to fall from grace Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21 119. No man is without sin 1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10 Christians are sinless 1 John 3: 9,6,8 120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead 1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16 There is to be no resurrection of the dead Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14 121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world Prov 11:31 Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10 122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20 Endless misery the portion of all mankind Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2 123. The Earth is to be destroyed 2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11 The Earth is never to be destroyed Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4 124. No evil shall happen to the godly Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13 Evil does happen to the godly Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7 125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/ Job 42:12 Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17 126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/ Prov 15:6 Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/ Luke 6:24 127. The Christian yoke is easy Matt 11:28,29,30 The Christian yoke is not easy John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8 128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness Gal 5:22 The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11 129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20 Longevity denied to the wicked Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17 130. Poverty a blessing Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5 Riches a blessing Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12 Neither poverty nor riches a blessing Prov 30:8,9 131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment Prov 3:13,17 Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow Eccl 1:17,18 132. A good name is a blessing Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1 A good name is a curse Luke 6:26 133. Laughter commended Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15 Laughter condemned Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4 134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness Prov 22:15 There is no remedy for foolishness Prov 27:22 135. A fool should be answered according to his folly Prov 26:5 A fool should not be answered according to his folly Prov 26:4 136. Temptation to be desired James 1:2 Temptation not to be desired Matt 6:13 137. Prophecy is sure 2 Pet 1:19 Prophecy is not sure Jer 18:7-10 138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10 Man's life is but seventy years Ps 90:10 139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast Gen 9:2 The fear of man is not upon the lion Prov 30:30 140. Miracles a proof of divine mission Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31 Miracles not a proof of divine mission Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19 141. Moses was a very meek man Num 12:3 Moses was a very cruel man Num 31:15,17 142. Elijah went up to heaven 2 Kings 2:11 None but Christ ever ascended into heaven John 3:13 143. All scripture is inspired 2 Tim 3:16 Some scripture is not inspired 1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17 145. Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. - Matthew 10:34 ... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. - Matthew 26:52 146. For wrath killeth the foolish man... - Job 5:2 ... let not the sun go down on your wrath. - Ephesians 4:26 147. And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. - John 3:13 ... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. - 2 Kings 2:11 148. If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. - John 5:31 I am one that bear witness of myself... - John 8:18 [Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes] 149. A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children... - Proverbs 13:22 Sell that ye have and give alms... - Luke 12:33 150. Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches shall be in his house... - Psalms 112:1-3 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. - Matthew 19:24 151. I and my father are one. - John 10:30 152. ... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. - John 14:28 [Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes] 153. Thou shalt not kill - Exodus 20:13 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side... and slay every man his brother... - Exodus 32:27 154. Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8 The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with: it is iniquity. - Isaiah 3:22 155. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water. - Leviticus 26:11 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them. - Exodus 25:18 156. For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works. - Ephesians 2:8-9 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. - James 2:24 157. God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man, that he should repent. - Numbers 23:19 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people. - Exodus 32:14 158 ... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and come forth... - John 5:28-29 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more. - Job 7:9 159. ... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. - Exodus 21:23-25 ... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. - Matthew 5:39 160. Honor thy father and mother. - Exodus 20:12 If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple. - Luke 14:26 161. Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth... - Matthew 6:19 In the house of the righteous is much treasure... - Proverbs 15:6 162. I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved. - Genesis 32:30 No man hath seen God at any time. - John 1:18 163. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father. - Ezekiel 18:20 ... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. - Exodus 20:5 164. Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding. - Proverbs 3:13 For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. - Ecclesiastes 1:18 165. The Lord is good to all. - Psalm 145:6 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. - Isaiah 45:7 166. Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire. - Matthew 5:22 [Jesus said] Ye fools and blind. - Matthew 23:17 167. For all have sinned. - Romans 3:23 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. - Job 1:1 168. Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Kings 8:26 Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign. - 2 Chronicles 22:2 169. If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth. - Numbers 30:2 But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by earth. - Matthew 5:34-35 170. ... the earth abideth forever. - Ecclesiastes 1:4 ... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. - 2 Peter 3:10 171. ... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger forever. - Jeremiah 3:12 Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever. - Jeremiah 17:4 172. ... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man. - James 1:13 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham. - Genesis 22:1 173. And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good. - Genesis 1:31 And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it grieved him at his heart - Genesis 6:6 174. For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there perpetually. - II Chronicles 7:16 Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands. - Acts 7:48 175. [God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto. - I Timothy 6:16 The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness. - I Kings 8:12 176. And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou? And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid. - Genesis 3:9,10 Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape. - John 5:37 177. Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw God, and did eat and drink. - Exodus 24: 9-11 Whom no man hath seen nor can see. - I Timothy 6:16 178. With God all things are possible. - Matthew 29:26 And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron. - Judges 1:19 179. God is not the author of confusion. - I Corinthians 24:33 Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good? - Lamentations 3:38 180. Those that seek me early shall find me. - Proverbs 8:17 Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but shall not find me. - Proverbs 1:28 181. On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement; it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. - Leviticus 23:27 For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt offering or sacrifices. - Jeremiah 7:22 182. And the priest shall burn all on the altar to be a burnt sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the Lord. - Leviticus 1:9 Your burnt offering are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me. - Jeremiah 7:20 183. God is not a man, that he should lie - Numbers 23:19 And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet. - Ezekiel 24:9 184. There is none other God but one. - I Corinthians 8:4 And God said, Let us make man in our image. - Genesis 1:26 185. When ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall borrow of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver and jewels of gold, and raiment; and ye shall put them on your sons and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians. - Exodus 3:21,22 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, nether rob him. - Leviticus 19:13 186. At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed. - Genesis 4:5,6 And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him. - Genesis 4:15 187. Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin... if God so clothe the grass of the field... shall he not much more clothe you? Therefore, take no thought, saying what shall we eat? or what shall we drink? or wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take, therefore, no thought for the morrow. - Matthew 6:28, 30-34 But if any provideth not for his own, especially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. - I Timothy 5:8 188. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. - Matthew 5:16 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them. - Matthew 6:1 189. And Solomon stood before the alter of the Lord, in the presence of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands toward heaven... - I Kings 7:22 When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men... - Matthew 6:5 190. And no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a Nazarite unto God from the womb. - Judges 8:5 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man hath long hair, it is a shame unto him? - I Corinthians 6:14 191. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. - Exodus 20:8 One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. - Romans 14:5 192. For in the six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it. - Exodus 20:11 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and that the Lord thy God brought the out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched-out arm; therefore the Lord thy God commanded the to keep the Sabbath day. - Deuteronomy 5:15 193. There is nothing unclean of itself. - Romans 14:14 Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the hare, and the coney; for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof, therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcass. - Deuteronomy 14:7,8 194. Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother. - Deuteronomy 27:22 And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my wife. - Genesis 20:11,12 195. If brethren dwell together, and one of them die and have no child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take her to him to wife. - Deuteronomy 25:5 If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing... they shall be childless. - Leviticus 20:21 196. He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness. - Mark 3:29 And by him that believe are justified from all things. - Acts 13:39 197. [John the Baptist] is Elias which was for to come. - Matthew 11:14 And they asked him, what then? Art thou [John the Baptist] Elias? And he saith, I am not. - John 1:21 198. Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God. - Mark 1:14 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea... and John was also baptizing Enon... for John was not yet cast into prison. - John 3:22-24 199. And it was in the third hour, and they crucified him. - Mark 25:3-4 And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour; and he saith unto the Jews, behold your king... Shall I crucify your king? - John 19:14-15 200. They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall. - Matthew 27:34 And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh. - Mark 15:23 [Jesus was the thirsty chap in both verses.] 201. And the men which journeyed with [Paul] stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. - Acts 9:7 And they that were with me [Paul] saw indeed the light and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. - Acts 22:9 202. Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free woman. - Galatians 4:22 By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only begotten son. - Hebrews 11:17 203. Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day of her death. - II Samuel 6:23 The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul. - II Samuel 21:8 204. And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel. - II Samuel 24:1 And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number Israel. - I Chronicles 21:1 205. All power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth. - Matthew 28:18 And [Jesus] could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his hands on a few sick folk and healed them. - Mark 6:5 206. There shall no evil happen to the just. - Proverbs 12:21 Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. - Hebrews 12:6 -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Doctor Deemstar Registered: 10/11/12 Posts: 883 Loc: The void Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours |
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Thank you for this, I'm gonna print out and hand it out to the jahovahs when they come knocking.
-------------------- Gnome-miii-odd JAH!!! Pasta-far-eye! R.I.P. Georgie poor G A.K.A. Jorgon Lucy
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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You are most welcome
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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This must be the place Registered: 06/02/13 Posts: 7,326 Loc: Dept of know wha Last seen: 17 hours, 48 minutes |
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I can explain. It is because the bible is not gods word but man's word. Different men's word to be specific
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Why! That is what i thought Stormrider!
But I'd like to hear a christians genuine view. I'm taking this to church on sunday. I'm dead serious. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Doctor Deemstar Registered: 10/11/12 Posts: 883 Loc: The void Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours |
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Quote: I was told by a baptist pastor that knew his shit quite well, that the original men that wrote the bible, whoever they were, were endowed or possessed or some shit by the Holy Spirit which guided them to write the bible, and that the Holy Spirit is about as close as mortal man can ever get to communicating with god, even though god does that in the bible several times. I learned quite a bit about Christianity in the chapel at the county jail here. The pastor was a good man that had the right idea about Christianity and he tried real hard to convert the boys in jail. He almost had me converted until I started analyzing the bible and the message. Which is you are a sheep, Jesus is your Shepard, Obey. If You are oppressed, forgive your oppressor, and all that turn the other cheek shit. God is infallible and you are going to heaven if you are a good sheep, Don't question it or you will surely burn the in the lake of fire. Now go and spread the good news, you are a filthy guilty sinner, and the only way to heaven is to accept Jesus and his word in it's entirety, and you will be rewarded in the afterlife for converting the nonbelievers. -------------------- Gnome-miii-odd JAH!!! Pasta-far-eye! R.I.P. Georgie poor G A.K.A. Jorgon Lucy Edited by Deemstar (11/22/13 03:14 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Don't let sheep lull you into becoming a sheep Deemstar. Some people in christianity may be nice and whatever unusual and refreshing ideas they have about christianity- it doesn't change the fact that the religion in of itself- is rotten, coercive and mentally scarring to the populace.
I, as a child, have been psychologically indoctrinated and a whole array of psychological and existential torment followed when i thought I lived in a universe were there was an all seeing, all knowing entity, whose actions are cruel, coercive and degrading towards us. Who told me i was guilty for being born and that my dad would suffer eternally for not believing in him. Until this day, there is some fallout from that mentality i was force-fed. I will forgive the people that did it, but the source must go
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Doctor Deemstar Registered: 10/11/12 Posts: 883 Loc: The void Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours |
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Yeah I was lucky enough not to have very religious parents, but I did grow up and still continue to live in a dominately Christian communities.
I've been through the Christian guilt trip, driving myself mad trying to make sense of it, breaking down into tears because of my gratitude for my life and begging for an obvious sign so I can be satisfied with blind faith. I thought that there was something to that lifestyle because I would see all the seemingly happy and stable Christian families going to church every Sunday. Being in god's "grace". I never really believed in it at all until I met an intilligent Christian, the dude reminds me of a boondock saint. His faith is firm but without it he would be a very mentality unstable individual so he relies on it like a crutch to keep his anger at bay. I believe that man needs some sort of code or belief structure to stand behind. Christianity works for this nation and their could be worse options, imagine Scientology or hardcore sharia law islam were the dominant religions, fuck that would be a nightmare. I am a firm believer in a higher power and it's been the intention of greedy and powerful men to conceal it's true nature from the general population, why? Maybe that humans would of never allowed themselves to construct such an undesirable and flawed system if they knew the true nature of reality and being. I believe in things like akashic records, the third eye, and ancient Chinese secrets. I hope the right people fight back before it's too late, but that's unlikely. -------------------- Gnome-miii-odd JAH!!! Pasta-far-eye! R.I.P. Georgie poor G A.K.A. Jorgon Lucy Edited by Deemstar (11/22/13 03:55 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Quote: BINGO! ding ding ding ding ding We have a winner. But really... Resistance is futile debating with fundamentalist Christians. You will be assimilated, logic or no logic. If you show one of them this list, they'll proclaim the glory of God, his every word, hallelujah, and consider you an infidel or heathen for even questioning this. Since fundamentalist Christians are (with some exceptions, but for the most part) deeply and profoundly anti-Semitic, they'll probably dismiss the Jewish Bible citations as "imperfect" or "obsolete." "Perfected by Jesus Christ's coming," or some such nonsense. The correct answer is, of course, exactly as Stromrider says. With-it Christians get it. There are lots of non-fundamentalist Christians who will give you that exact answer.
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Sounds like a weak and irresponsible person to me. Concealing his mental problems with a faith that has wrecked havoc on people's lives instead of having the actual character and strength to deal with it? Heck, I had my mental instability period. Sure, I was tempted to let god in at that time, thought it might help. But I didn't. And I'm proud. The very fact that I needed him when I was weak shows what a screwed mentality we have on spirituality. Quote: There's nothing wrong with that. Quite possibly so, seeing as how many religions, above all, christianity, are so conveniently making people into followers of the ones with crowns and authority. Quote: And christians would call you a satanist for it, which wouldn't matter if they weren't so prevalent to get to you when you are young and innocent to encode you with this good vs evil bullshit. also, back a few hundred years and you would have been put to death. Personally, I am infuriated and no amount of positive specks of the christian faith will ever change my mind about it. Quote: Jesus said the Old Law was to remain in force until heaven and earth passed away and all is accomplished “For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass the law until all is accomplished. Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven”-Matthew 5:18-19 RSV. Don’t let them get away with this shit for even the bible says that they should still be following the Old Law. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Quote: Yes, but I would like to respectfully request that we dispense with the "no shellfish" thingy in the Jewish Testament. I live in an area near the Chesapeake Bay where the seafood is so fresh and the hard crabs are so yummy. Love me my hard crabs. Mmm... Hard crabs and beer. Just sayin'...
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This must be the place Registered: 06/02/13 Posts: 7,326 Loc: Dept of know wha Last seen: 17 hours, 48 minutes |
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Man I love reading what you guys have to say on religious subjects. I'm very thankful for the S&M forum. Perhaps I'll start worshipping it
![]() But seriously all you guys on here (whether I agree or not) have really offered a lot of insight to this heathen
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This must be the place Registered: 06/02/13 Posts: 7,326 Loc: Dept of know wha Last seen: 17 hours, 48 minutes |
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Quote: Dude you really taking this to church ![]() They're going to stone you and burn you at the stake!
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Doctor Deemstar Registered: 10/11/12 Posts: 883 Loc: The void Last seen: 15 days, 14 hours |
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Quote: Weak is not a word I would use to describe this man, mentally or physically he is just plagued with mental disorders everything from bad schizophrenia, OCD, Bipolar and probably a bit of PTSD. You wouldn't be able to tell though unless you get to know the guy, he understands he is mentally unstable and does a great job keeping his mind in check, and has taught me a lot how to go about life and deal with people and paranoia. Most people with the list of disorders he has would be running for the doctors for medication, his only medication is marijuana and he smokes that shit religiously. Quote: Don't we all, but even looking at alcohol and those scrumptious crustaceans is a sin according to the old testament, and makes Jesus shed tears for your eternal soul. --- I think that the reason you can't argue with a hardcore fundamentalist is because of a simple defense mechanism in the human brain, imagine dedicating your whole life to something only to discover it's a sham, your mind would rather rationalize the lie than accept the truth. -------------------- Gnome-miii-odd JAH!!! Pasta-far-eye! R.I.P. Georgie poor G A.K.A. Jorgon Lucy Edited by Deemstar (11/22/13 05:26 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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It's unlikely any "christians" will respond to this thread. Where is Deviate or Fivepointer when you want them?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Fiducia Christum Registered: 10/08/12 Posts: 2,659 Loc: UK Last seen: 1 year, 5 months |
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It's the error of man - as is everything.
It becomes increasingly apparent that a sizable demographic who carry God are those who carry the onus to dissaprove him ALA The Story of The Two Monks: http://www.fisheaters.com/twomon Edited by Duncan Rowhl (11/24/13 12:07 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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I understand and I agree.
I would just like to know how christians would defend this, genuinely? -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Cunt Tickler Registered: 08/18/13 Posts: 1,284 Last seen: 3 years, 4 months |
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Lol I would put my 2 cents in here. For one, I was born a PK (pastors kid) and actually am leaving to California tomorrow to go scam scholarship money out of the assembly. Mostly for the backturning they have done to us. My dad was a pastor for 30 years and died of cancer, my brother died 3 days before, and a well respected person in the church posted on Facebook about how my brother committed suicide and such. I have a hate almost for the church. But I find "God", whatever he/it mag be, is with me. Many smart ass prayers seem to become true such as a prayer for a ps3 with very specific details... I fucking won it at my after prom a year and a half later, specifics fucking included.
Anyways, I see this list here, and to be honest, I've never personally read much of the bible. As shocking as that may be, a kid who spent every Sunday, Tuesday, and Thursday night in church or prayer or anything else, who holds hands in public to not cause pain to my mother as the prodical son, doesn't know much more than half of Genesis. What I do know, however, is that my understanding of the difference in a few of those paradoxes is the new and old covenant, as well as what's already stated; a bunch of bros wrote that bible. Including Abraham who wrote of Noah and Adam and Eve. We bring up specifics, I might be able to have an adult conversation with you. As it stands, the longer I sit in church the more I feel contempt myself and see the others sort of conforming to a belief not of their own. -------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I'm right here but what do you want me to say? What makes you think this thread is even deserving of a response? I see nothing new, original or insightful here. This kind of list is generated by people who read the scriptures with no understanding, they have no ability to read between the lines and take everything at face value. The authors of such lists are more guilty of Biblical literalism than fundamentalists. I will give one example of one of these supposed "contradictions" THis list says: " 6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21 God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8 so let's look at what Geneses 11:5 actually says: 5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built. Notice that it does not say " God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things". So this is not a genuine contradiction, it is merely inferred to be a contradiction based on the idea that if God is everywhere present he cannot "come down". But more often than not, these different descriptions of God reflect different levels of human understanding and not errors or inconsistencies on the part of Biblical authors. If you begin reading the Bible with Geneses and you read through the Torah, you will get a certain picture of God. Then that view evolves and is elaborated on in the historical books and then is further advanced in the wisdom books and the prophetic books. Then in the new testament, we find a revolution in man's understanding of God which is initiated by Jesus Christ, the Word incarnate. St. Paul discusses this throughout his letters to the Romans, Corinthians etc explaining how when our actions are inspired by the Holy Spirit, we are not bound by the Jewish law, but we are truly free. So the biggest reason that the Bible contradicts itself so often, is because it presents not a static picture but an evolving understanding of God and mankind's relationship to Him. Different attributes of God are also explained in different ways, from different points of view, in order that we should be given a broader perspective instead of having a very narrow picture of God. The Bible also contains a variety of different types of literature which were never intended to be cross referenced as if they were part of the same document. For example when you read the newspaper, it has different sections, there is the headlines, the editorials, the sports page, the comics, etc. You would have to be a moron to interpret the comics with the same mindset as the headlines, and yet that is exactly what you are doing with these lists of Biblical contradictions. The Bible must be read and understood as a whole. All this should be quite obvious. I mean how do you people not know these things? People are so uneducated when it comes to religion and then think that they are qualified to interpret it and declare it false. It is total arrogance and ignorance on their part. They do not understand Christianity. They do not understand spirituality. They do not understand paradox. The spiritual path necessarily involves paradox, therefore you will never find any detailed spiritual teaching that does not contradict itself in some way. If you are incapable of understanding CHristianity, then I suggest studying Buddhism or Hinduism, which present the same spiritual truths as Christianity in a different way. If you cannot understand these religions either, I cannot help you because this is not something that can be worked out at the level of words and concepts. There is no philosophy which cannot be challenged and refuted. In order to understand these truths, you must develop the ability to go beyond concepts. THe concepts we find in religion are merely signposts, pointing us the way to go beyond them. If you focus on the concepts themselves instead of going beyond them, you will encounter numerous contradictions and absurdities in every religion. We must not be afraid to confront paradox and go beyond it. This is true regardless of whether you are Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jewish, Muslim, etc. We must always search for the higher truth, that goes beyond words on a page but is a LIVING truth, for God is a spirit and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (John 4:24). The Holy Spirit is the interpreter of scripture and if you do not possess a degree of the Holy Spirit, you cannot interpret scripture. St. Paul tells us that spiritual things are but nonsense to the non spiritual man. Read The Power of Now by Eckhart tolle if you want to understand some of the ways in which the ego blinds you to spiritual truth. The unfortunate thing here is that there is a path that leads back to the peace, freedom and understanding mankind was originally endowed with, or which is our own real nature. However, in the words of the Grateful Dead, it's "no simple highway". Throughout the centuries, God has attempted to communicate this path to mankind and he has given us various religions which provide us with more than adequate knowledge and tools to traverse this path. And yet the majority of mankind continues to reject this gift, this gift of unlimited life that God wants to give us and many reject it because they don't like the box it comes in. Christianity is just a box, it's what it is in the box that is valuable, you guys are all focused on the damn box. Edited by Deviate (11/27/13 11:25 PM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I have to say, I read a post of yours in another thread where you praised Buddhist and Taoist ideas. I guess I was wrong to assume you were atheist or agnostic in posting this, but knowing that you subscribe to eastern ideas would certainly have changed my response to you. You are aware that Eastern religion can scar people as well, are you not? Do do you not know about the abuses of Buddhism and Hinduism that have gone on in India and Asian countries? Do you not know about the corrupt gurus who have taken advantage of many, especially westerners in the last half century? Do you not know about the sincere students who may have even had genuine teachers but ended up driving themselves insane seeking enlightenment and not finding it? Christianity is not "rotten", it's not good or bad, those are your labels. You should know from Buddhism that one must let go of their preconcieved notions about things, about this and that, good and bad. Christianity just is. It is one spiritual teaching that when it comes down to it, is actually pretty decent in my opinion when you consider how old it is, the original audience it was intended for and when consider some of the alternatives as has been pointed out. I mean , would you rather live in a Christian society or a society run by Scientologists? But anyway, Christianity is just as deep and beautiful a spiritual tradition as the eastern traditions in my opinion. If you find that it scarred you, it's only because you did not seek a deep enough understanding. You did not delve deeply enough into the meaning of the scriptures, because right practice of Christian principles leads to joy, peace and freedom of the spirit. Edited by Deviate (11/28/13 12:09 AM)
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Registered: 05/12/08 Posts: 2,814 Loc: Northland, New Z Last seen: 2 years, 2 months |
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Bloody awesome post. I might memorise all of this for the deepening of my Christianity. Thank you so much. There really is nothing to explain.
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Excuse me? Abuse of a solid idea and personal madness is NOT the same as the essence of the religion itself scarring people and coercing them into believing in its word. Yes people abuse the guru system, yes people might get lost in their way to the spiritual experience, but that pales, PALES in comparison to what sort of twisted cancers the christian faith has achieved. In itself, this religion emotionally scars people into a fearful state of existence and then ploys to 'save them' from it as if it was full of love and understanding, but only for those who exclusively follow a set of rules (of use to fucking no one but the ones directing the whole charade). Not only are the rules outdated, but also absolutely incompatible with an evolving human being and compatible only with the compliant servant of a lord. Quote: If it is not dead and rotting, how do you explain the diseases? Diseases such as war in the name of faith, intolerance, abuse, discrimination, bigotry, existential coercion, slowing progress and many others? And please don't give me the "these people running christianity and/or conventional christians don't get it." That would just just be a "no true Scotsman" or in this case- "no true christian" logical fallacy. (for your convenience: No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them.) You see the difference between you an me is that i take christianity for what it is. You interpret it based on what you'd want it to be instead. But it is what it is. And it is dysfunctional. This is not preconceived. This is what i have made out of countless exposure. No need to to use the "it's not as bad as..." argument either. Scientology is merely scamming people for money whilst trying to achieve influence. Christianity has been at it longer and are far more better at it. Whatever joy you think your version of christianity leads to- you can have it. I'd just like to be left out of christian spirituality, but for some reason I always have to watch these christians put their judgemental selves into everything. So that's why I retaliate with this list for today ![]() In of itself, in my own opinion, christianity is a broken religion that psychologically damages the populace and seeks to rule our spiritual lives without allowing us to have the actual experience. Such as it stands now- it has to go. plain and simple ![]() Quote: I sort of agree with what you are saying about this particular one. But even if I gave you that one- it doesn't account for the other 205, more intense contradictions. You picked an easy one to tackle others are just flat out contradictions, not just contradictions in essence or theory.Quote: nope. it is inconsistency. pure and simple. if you have directly opposing descriptions of god and/or rules in a holy scripture and you somehow interpret that as 'reflection of levels of human understanding' then all I can say is that any inconsistency should have that explanation. Remember- my ball is red, but just to be clear- my ball is blue. Am I merely pondering upon the various 'reflections of human understanding'? No. I'm just being inconsistent or purposefully being vague and dabbling sophistry. Especially when I'm have no actual ball to present, merely the idea for it. Reflection of human understanding? More like reflections of human inconsistency. Which would make sense given that the bible was written by different politically and socially motivated people throughout history and to put a cherry on top: assembled by different people altogether as well ![]() Quote: In the torah and genesis all I get from it is that god is a merciless, psychopathic ruler-like figure who quickly becomes very keen on the political stands of the world, favouring one part of humanity over another, inciting violence, rape, directing war and discrimination. Seems awfully convenient that the spiritual teachings of that time also told what was to be done politically. Sounds like kings and rulers within the socium practising this form of spirituality would benefit greatly... fast forward to the new testament - a cult within the jewish belief system arises claiming that the messiah foretold in the torah has arrived. the jews called bullshit. romans didn't want anything to do with it at first so they hunted them until suddenly... SUDDENLY. making the whole thing legal AND the religion of rome. now... suddenly there was a lot of reasons to go to war and a lot of people willing to go to war.... hmm.... sounds familiar? Quote: sooo.... the bible contradicts itself so often because people's opinions on what god is and what his laws are changed.... within the scriptures themselves? riiight ![]() and no one could just like...leave the up-to-date version instead? just sounds like a bad attempt to shield Christianity's bullshit to me to be honest. no disrespect. Quote: Except the comic headline stays consistent to the story. The story doesn't start to deviate from the headline and put in random segments that contradict what the story was telling thus far. So, yeah... bad analogy Quote: Oh I am educated in means of spirituality, don't worry about that. And what you are preaching as 'obvious' is merely your own construct of the christian faith so you can look past all the inconsistencies and justify its existence. paradox is more than reoccurring inconsistencies and contradictions. paradox is much much subtler than this. Quote: Hinduism is just as full of shit as christianity is, albeit not of the same level. there is no equal to christianity in this aspect in my own humble opinion. Buddhism is on the right track, that is for sure. not something that can be worked out with concepts and words? and yet most religions prize themselves for having an abundance of words and concepts. i agree though and that is why I believe true spirituality can only be achieved without organised religions. at least most of them. christianity up front. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (11/30/13 10:14 AM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Thanks for taking care of that for me.
![]() But you'll never convince a true believer of anything no matter what you post. However this is great shit for those you are just learning about the nonsense that culture feeds us a truth. They can pick and choose more wisely. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I am happy to have been part of helping people to avoid the current state of affairs of christianity, which is a void. Well, he can believe in whatever he wants to ![]() Even if Deviate's faith is in the theme of christian spirituality and he interprets christian scripture to get his spiritual points across- he would obviously not be a christian in the eyes of the christian community itself. That would make him, in a way, what christians were to the jews at the time- interpreters of their long since established religion, who believed to understand it better than they could. Not to mentioned that he is educated in spiritual knowledge of other teachings, which christians are explicitly told to reject. Deviate does not strike me as an actual christian and that's fine with me. It's actual old-school christians I have a problem with. Not those who, for better or worse, seek to redeem christianity by pointing out their favourable interpretations on the matter. My two cents about these people are that they are merely wasting their potential on something that, in my opinion, is far beyond our help... Anyways, it is these actual christians i'd like to see defend themselves against this list, but good luck finding any of those here I suppose, right?
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Indeed. This isn't the first time such lists have been posted here and mostly ignored by the otherwise vocal Christians.
Deviate has been hammered by some of the most logical truthful and well thought out responses to his posts that I've ever seen here imo, (better than anything I've posted as response) and he is still fully intact. Nothing you say can sway his faith. But as I said there are a lot of open minded folks just wondering about all this stuff and you are providing food for thought. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Cunt Tickler Registered: 08/18/13 Posts: 1,284 Last seen: 3 years, 4 months |
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^not only that but I doubt you'll find any "real" Christians by that definition. We're on a mushrooms and psychedelics site. Just by that alone, anybody on this website therefore is not a "real" christian. Anyways I'm at my convention now. Went to a few services and really wondered about this speaking in tongues thing. This holy spirit thing. Why they needed, to not go on, $45,000 in cash from their followers.
Interesting enough however, I spoke with a man yesterday who is "sent of God" and told me that I am meant to do great things. Strange that I've bee, told this explicitly by many individuals both church wise and secular such as school and even peers. I said, smart assedly, "so I'll be a pastor like my dadhuh" his response was "dondon't tie yourself down to one thing. Wtf, a person in the church just told me not to get involved?? Hey anyways, I'd let your list loose on some real Christians here but I always need to remember that I have my fathers, grandfathers, and even uncles image to keep up. Can you believe the fucks denied my scholarship and instead gave me scriptures on how to move on? -------------------- The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it. The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry.
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ANIMALS (the RAINBOW SERPENT) Registered: 11/12/11 Posts: 26,370 Loc: Boston |
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9 is false.
God is none of those things. God is... interchangeable /thread -------------------- Something there is mysteriously formed, Existing before Heaven and Earth, Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging, All-pervading, unfailing, I do not know its name; I call it tao. If forced to give it a name, I call it Great (ta). Being great, it flows out; Flowing out means far-reaching; Being far-reaching, it is said to return. It's just a shot away..
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."
2 Kings 20:1-4-5 In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David. Not only did Hezekiah not die like was 'intended' by god, whom according to James 1:17 'doesn't change (his mind or himself) like shifting shadows', but he had a whooping fifteen years of life added to his lifespan so god did kinda change like a shifting shadow right then. suddenly promising this, suddenly doing that instead. It's not the best example in the list I agree, but that doesn't account for the 8 points mentioned beforehand and over 150 points thereafter lets say that for the sake of interest, 2 of these points, one mentioned by O'Reilly and the other by Deviate, will be taken off. so even though the validy if that could be debated, but now there is only 204 other, perhaps more solid points left to debunk
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Registered: 08/04/09 Posts: 5,854 |
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Wow MotherNaturesSon, you are kicking ass in this thread.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Yeah I say we go through them all one by one.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: This is simply not true in my eyes. I am going to post an except from a homily given by an Orthodox Priest on what the Orthodox faith is all about: That luminous part of you that exists beyond personality – your soul, if you will – is as bright and shining as any that has ever been. Bright as Shakespeare’s, bright as Gandhi’s, bright as Mother Teresa’s. Clear away everything that keeps you separate from this secret luminous place. Believe it exists, come to know it better, nurture it, share its fruits tirelessly. In that little paragraph is the core understanding we Orthodox have about who and what you and I are. If that perspective is off, then we will not “be in our right minds.” The perspective is this: we are made in God’s image. The image of God is who and what we are. Nothing can take that away. Nothing can change it. We are mirrors that reflect God’s glory. His glory shines in us all the time. The mirror is dirty, but it is there. It needs to be cleaned and polished. At the core of every human being, writes St. Gregory Nazaianzus, is this amazing spark of divinity, created by God, put there by God which nothing, not even sin and death and the devil, can adversely affect. Sin obscures our vision of this truth. Fear distracts us from seeing it. The traumas and pains of life keep us from touching it. All this negative stuff makes us believe wrongly that we are not the image of God, that we are separate from God, that he is far away from us and we are far away from him. But this is not true. It is impossible. The Psalmist tells us that the will of God cannot return to him without accomplishing its purpose, so the image is indefectible. It is like a seed that cannot be destroyed and it is growing and will grow forever until it reaches full fruition over and over again because there is no end to growing. This is what Christianity teaches and has always taught and it is a very empowerin and life affirming message. I dont see why this should scar anyone and if you happen to have been raised in a church that failed to get this message across then go ahead and criticize that church but dont act like the whole religion is rotten. Quote: Right because every Christian is fighting wars. Christianity is an extremely large religious movement. If you think it's not right for me to say no true Christian did X then neither can you say all Christians are like X. There are good Christians and bad Christians. There are Christians who start wars and Christians who promote peace. This is human nature. If medieval people didn't have Christianity to fight over, they would have fought over something else. CHristianity is just a religion, it can't be held responsible for all the ways it gets used, abused or interpreted. Look at the Mormons, they have one of the weirdest interpretations of the Christian scriptures I know of. Are you going to blame Jesus or the apostles or the early church fathers for Momornism? That doesn't make much sense to me. Quote: I picked one at random. Its not my fault if you think it was an easy one, then you shouldn't have put it on your list. But I proved my point, these lists are not made by people educated in the interpretation of scipture, so why should I pay attention to what they think are contradictions? Furthermore as I explained (and you ignored) religious texts always contradict themselves because of the paradoxical nature of the spiritual path. Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves. I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it. Spiritual teachings of sufficient complexity will always end up contradicting themselves. It means nothing. Someone who has studied Buddhism should know that. Quote: You're simply wrong. As I explained, the early Biblical texts give a very primitive understanding of God, whereas the new testament presents a revolutionary new understanding of God. This is known as progressive revelation, not contradiction. But think whatever you want, you're entitled to your own opinion. Quote: That may be all you get from it, but other more adept readers see divine truth interwoven throughout the stories of the Torah. Quote: Again, you're entitled to your opinion but why should the world bend to your opinion? Maybe pay a little more attention to the spiritual teachings given by Christ instead of simply the history. Quote: Again, your opinion. I disagree, I think spiritual organizations can play an important role in an individual's spiritual development. There is something that takes place when you worship in a community setting that is very difficult to achieve at home by yourself. You like Buddhism and Buddhists have temples and monasteries and ceremonies just like Christians. It's the same thing. Quote: Yes, I am a Christian in the eyes of the community itself. I am a catholic and no one has ever told me I couldn't be catholic because of how I interpret scripture. On the contrary, almost every way I interpret scripture already exists somewhere within the church, by some saint or theologian. That's what I love about Christianity, virtually ever view point imaginable on it's interpretation has put forward and debated about by the great saints and theologians of history. Any time there is anything controversy within Christianity, some group somewhere believes in the view that is now considered heretical. You can find literally everything under the umbrella of Christianity. You see, what you are doing is stereotyping all "real" Christians as being degenerate ingrates who have the most primitive possible understanding of scripture and knwo nothing of the interior life and are completely intolerant of other religions. Now, there may be some CHristians out there who fit this description (mostly in protestant denominations imo) but to be honest, I have never actually met a Christian like this. I have to admit that before I converted, I myself believed in this idiotic stereotype and assumed that 99% of CHristians were like this and only 1% were guenuinly spiritual people. and I remember when I first came into the church I kept thinking how lucky I was to keep meeting Christians who fell into that one percent of genuinely spiritual people. Eventually I finally realized, it couldn't just be 1% or there is no way I would keeping meeting people like myself. The truth is there are plenty of very well educated Christians out there, who know about other religions and still choose to be CHristian. Christians are also a lot more tolerant of other religions than you think. For example, in my RCIA class one day we began class with the following quote from a Hindu saint: Scattered mind = madman, quiet mind = saint, still mind = God. I have to admit I was surprised to hear that said in a Catholic Church but I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. You are actually the one who is being intolerant here, I have met many Buddhists who respect the Christian tradition. Christianity is truly one of the great religions of the world. It has benefited my spiritual life and that of countless other people throughout history. Quote: I don't believe I understand it better, on the contrary my understanding of CHristianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True I may understand it better than some, but that is the case for everyone, there will always be people above you and people below you in any religion. Quote: Why judge people though? I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person and I was always on guard against the stereotype you keep putting forward. But when I actually met Christians and realized they were not really like that stereotype, at least not the ones in my church, I stopped judging. Other people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and growth. Some people believe in a very childish understanding of Christianity. It is this way with other religions too. There are Buddhsits who are enlightened, Buddhists who are seriously seeking enlightenment, and Buddhists who just worship Buddha on Sunday (or whatever day Buddhist worship is). I do not judge these people. They are on their trip, I am on mine. Who am I to tell someone "No, that's not how you be a Buddhist. You need to become enlightened"
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: MotherNaturesSon and I don't really disagree that much, when I saw the thread title I thought he was an atheist but he is actually hip to the spiritual nature of reality. He just doesn't like Christianity it seems, which is where we differ, Christianity being my personal favorite religion. But from my perspective, Christianity is simply one religion which seeks to express the ineffable spiritual truths that govern our existence. My only real opponents are those who identify themselves as atheists, skeptics and materialists. In other words, any converts that MotherNaturesSon wins over to his views, I regard as victories won for our side, because we are both on the side that asserts there is more to reality than what meets the physical senses. really once you convert someone to believe in that, they are only a hair's breath away from Christianity anyway. At their core, CHristianity, Buddhism and Hinduiusm are the exact same thing.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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"So this means the only purpose that all religions and spiritual paths truly serve is to gradually drive you insane by the fact that they do not work.-Deviate
![]() and for the record I'm not an atheist. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (12/02/13 06:06 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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What do you believe then?
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I believe it's all a big unknown. I believe that I and everyone else is not equipped with the capacity to know. I believe therefore that anything I or anyone else puts forth as truth will have psychologically ulterior motives.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: We don't disagree about the necessity for a spiritual life in one form or another, however, we do disagree on wether organised religion, of which christianity in particular, is a good thing. I think you misunderstand many people around you. Words such as atheist (with the connotation christians often use the word with), materialist and skeptics are merely words you have assigned to people whom you believe lack a spiritual outlook on life. However I believe that these people often do not lack a spiritual outlook on life. They merely choose to go beyond concepts of gods, worship and other traditional forms of spiritual practise. Their minds have standards for explaining how their belief works and they try not to speculate beyond what they know or can measure when explaining how things particularly work. This doesn't mean that they have no joy for life and can't appreciate the subtle messages of the universe in their own way. This doesn't have to mean that they think their lives are purposeless, that life isn't precious. Or that a state of well being or/and existential bliss cannot exist somewhere out there in the mind of self-realised and enlightened person. Overly religious folk are missing the point. They think that without the concept of god or prayer or worship or building huge ass buildings in the name of what they believe in so they can gather a bunch of people who are supposed to believe in the exact same way and beat their chests reminding everyone that they are doing the good work here- all that is left is an empty void of materialism or existential apathy, amorality and suffering. Which is actually what IS left without a spiritual life, but it's not what is left without particular forms of spiritual practise- in other words; organised religion. People should just be left to their own form or spirituality. It's okay to share what you believe in with someone else and beliefs do become similar based on what ideas float and prevail out there, but ultimately I see no reason for anyone to have to convert to the exact same belief system. Why? BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. Proof? Even within organised religions such as christianity or buddhism or whatever; they are all divided. Christianity has protestants, orthodox, catholics etc. Buddhists have a whole array of different schools who interpret the set teachings differently. This applies virtually to any religion out there. And everyone thinks THEY are right. That THEY got it better than the others, the others are just confused and deviated from the truthful path. Now, within these groups you'll find even MORE dividing! Wether it's smaller groups within the said group or even individuals such as yourself- you'll always find people who think they 'get it' and the ones they admire as ones who 'get it even better' than themselves or who they ridicule as those who 'don't get it'. Don't you see how absurd it is then, to pretend that there is an actual unifying form of spirituality out there? The only thing that seems to be universal about spirituality is that we all wish to achieve as state of happiness and well being. And since everyone has their own challenges, problems and traumas in life- they will need a personally tailored remedy for these things to reach said state of well-being. This is what I believe spirituality is supposed to be about- a personal journey with many adventurers and strangers on the road, with dangers, thrills, chills, revelations, obstacles, redemptions, mistakes, depressions, suffering, joy, anger, forgiveness, love and ultimately a conclusion that will take you on. Why is anyone supposed to conform to something that doesn't synch with them or something that is flat out irrelevant not to them, but to an entire generation? Now here's a funny thing! It would be all right and dandy if those who are more into the old-school forms of spiritual practise (because it synchs with their person) would accept other, more abstract or methodically oriented spiritual practises as equally relevant and contributing to the life of mankind. And some, such as buddhism, are so flexible (as they try to talk about what they know and less about what they don't; such as wether the earth spins around the sun or not) and confident in their beliefs (be they none the less divided as they are) that they do not call out for these people to be burned at the stake... or say, threaten them with eternal suffering and damnation, perhaps? On the contrary, they attempt to see how this belief that is different from their own could apply to them, they look for the things that bring them together whilst ultimately respecting and celebrating the differences, hoping that both of them will ultimately reach their goal of happiness in the long run and try to learn from one another to speed of the said process. This is why I respect buddhism and other, more mature religions such as Taoism, than I do christianity, judaism, islam- hinduism EVEN! Religions such as Christianity were obviously established (note: not created) for political purposes and it has divided the world ever since. Not only is it a coercive religion with a cruel ruler-like god figure that threatens people with eternal damnation unless they believe in some guy that apparently died for me, who is a filthy sin ridden entity since before i was born, but it seeks to vilify all other forms of spirituality. Once someone actually called them on their bullshit, since they thought they could explain everything, it was murder, burning, blackmailing, torture and fear-mongering. What kind of a fucked up spiritual practise is that? And to this day, christianity in overall remains adamant in its judgemental self-absorbed manipulative opinion. The fact that a few people in this religion try to defend or redeem it is admirable, but so far I see no results and no change in the core attitude or teachings of this twisted cult or guilt. That being said. Quote: First of all. Next time you quote someone to make a point- make sure to give me proof of the citation, at the very least a name so we don't get caught in the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Saying someone of importance said something surely does give the argument a little more sway, especially if the person is respectable. Heck, sometimes all you need is someone else than yourself to say something that would prove your point, but as it often happens people tend to lie about what they heard someone say and just say what they want to say under the guise of someone else's authority or numbers. Second; this is not what Christianity has been teaching. This is what one priest within 1 group of various christian opinion'ates has stated about the soul, the divine within all of us. And though I find the text heart-warming; I find it funny that once someone settles to play by the rules and tries to make a point using the core of your faith- the holy scriptures, you suddenly 360 and point to what some priest said somewhere, as if that would suddenly undo what is being presented as official teachings and what consequences they have brought upon us throughout history. A heartwarming speech on one priest's spiritual epiphanies hardly accounts for the countless ounces of bullshit in the religion itself. One doesn't have to be orthodox or a christian to come up with what he said. These are natural thoughts occurring to sensitive and spiritual people. However, that I am sinful since before I was born is not something a spiritually sound person would come up with. Much rather, a certain someone who would seek to 'help' me with this force-fed problem. How convenient it would then be, if the remedy for this affliction would coincidentally be to obey a certain authority...oh wait! That's just how christianity is, isn't it? I was raised in an environment that tried to get across what was written in the scriptures without trying to lube it up my ass, if you'll excuse my french. Pure scripture, for what it was, no bullshit interpreting. Obey god. God is all powerful. He sees all and knows all. He rules all. Here are the rules for you to follow. He loves you for obeying them and he hates his enemies who don't. Don't be his enemy. Or you will suffer forever after you die, especially if you don't believe in his son who was here on earth a while back. Homosexuals are evil. Drugs are evil. Magic is evil. God has killed and murdered these kind of people in the past with fire raining from the skies and floods coming from the earth (killing all the animals for no fucking reason, since they are not as important). Naturally, I was highly disturbed by the whole thing to say the least... Quote: Putting aside all the other dark aspects I put forth such as burning people for no fucking reason and killing scientists, I said "religious wars" not "war" in general. And yes, religious wars have been a HUGE thing in christianity and many other religions in the past and still would be, had the age of rationalism not alleviated them of their influence. Concerning christianity, I need only point to the most famous chain of wars known as the crusades. A perfect example of political reasons, 'spiritual' motivation. Islam in turn had the Jihad. How come? That's right! Because the crusades were mostly targeted at them. Now where I come from, people were pagans, just minding their own business until the order Teutonic comes along as part of the crusade and starts killing, pillaging and burning in the name of the lord. They claimed that they were dealing with heathens, but even after these heathens converted to catholicism the order kept attacking. It would appear that they were interested in lands and titles, nobody gave a shit the heathens accepted their damned religion. But I digress. The very fact that christianity HAS been part of such a thing and mature religions such as buddhism or taoism have not gives us something to think about. How would you imagine these said religions would have gone about declaring holy wars with the philosophy found in their particular scriptures, huh? Like this? (it's only 50 seconds, watch it for good laughs )Look, get it through your head- I'm not talking about all 'christians' as people. I am assessing what has been achieved by cultures that were submerged into a certain religion both spiritually and culturally. I bet there have been buddhist assholes and quarrels throughout history as well, but in overall their teachings gave birth to a culture that has been and is still one of spiritual mindfulness and sublimity. Peace and compassion. Even today, facing the difficulty of resisting china- there are no bombs or buddhist kung-fu crusades. Christianity wants to boast of the same, but what christians have achieved (as a whole) within western culture and beyond is the technique of fetishising political agendas, flat out evil acts out of ignorance and fear, rejection of progress due to intense fear of loosing authority and a small existential comfort, albeit only for those who conform. That is the overall achievement chart of christianity. No one is blaming the apostles or jesus for what other people made of their words. I am blaming people for supporting an institution that has taken said ideas and resulted them in the horrible things I mentioned. Then pleading ignorance and selectism, as if what was done to the world around them wasn't the point, the point was that they are good people and love everybody. What the fuck? The very fact that so many different twisted branches of this form of spirituality can emerge only goes to show how inconsistent and easily manipulated its word is. How easy it is to justify bullshit with it. Even different schools of buddhism just have a different view on what meditational practises are most efficient, what path is the most effective. In hinduism its more about semantics; which god married which god and which god is more worthy of rituals than the other. But they all more or less agree on the core aspects and consider each other different schools than separate spiritual teachings. In christianity- it's just a complete different framework every time some new branch forms and there's scandal involved, words like cult or blasphemy, excommunication and whatnot. Perhaps the most hilarious thing is: christianity started out as a cult. A cult of Judaism. So christianity in itself is an interpretation. That should show you the dangers of making interpretations and trying to establish them as cannon, above others. Quote: Riiight... you still have another 204 points to debunk if you want to get anywhere NEAR proving your point. You see, I don't interpret texts to make ends meet one way or the other. I take the texts for what they are. In other words I read them as an orthodox (who are hardcore about not interpreting anything) and disagreeing with it wholeheartedly. In my humble opinion most of christian scripture is inconsistent, irrelevant moral stories with a lot of appealing to conform to a ruler-like figure. In essence, these scriptures teach you how to obey. And then they go "oh yeah, by the way, we love you and we are very merciful and full of light, please remember that while you kneel and cry for being a filthy sinner!". I ignored it because you clearly don't see the difference between inconsistency and paradoxes. "I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it." For that argument even to begin to have some sort of relevance you should cite the entire paragraph from the book itself were it says so and then find actual scripture that does, as you put it, contradict itself. Adding the book name and author would help. Either way, appealing to "all my friends do it too" doesn't make inconsistencies okay. Contradictions are sometimes not contradictions when you are more aware of the contexts and a subtle linguistic stunt takes place. That's when a contradiction becomes a paradox. On the other hand, when a contradiction is merely confusing with seemingly no obvious connection to meaning, that's when it is an aspect of inconsistency. And please, if you're gonna go crazy and say that every single point in the list is a paradox, then you're gonna have an easy time debunking all 204 points and explaining them to us, right? Because right now, all I see is 204 contradictions that are just mere inconsistencies. I will however stand corrected honourably if you manage to prove it otherwise. After all, that is why I made this topic. But don't expect me not to challenge you. Quote: So, there's that christian "you are wrong!" Thought you were above that... If these texts were such primitive understandings of god then modern scholars should simply have excluded them so that ambitious primitive-minded people wouldn't use them to justify their horrendous acts.The new testament is an extension of Judaism. Those who stood by it thought that the things predicted in Judaism are coming to pass and should be noted. It is, in essence, an interpretation, given that bits and pieces of Judaic scriptures are also within christianity, but only those that support their interpretation. But the fact that you're calling this interpretation a revolutionary new understanding of god only shows what I had said earlier- just another branch of organised religion trying to compete with the old one by stating that it is better, newer and closer to god than the older one is. This is known as dividing, quarrel and pride. If everyone would just be immersed into their own spirituality, we wouldn't have these problems... Quote: Ahhh... "Adept readers"? Once again, dividing between followers within the group itself. Looks like another sneaky "No true scotsman". A TRUE, adept reader will understand it right, whilst where one who isn't- won't understand and therefore make a fool of himself. Bullshit. Divine truth my ass. Murder. War. Rape. Pillaging. Human and animal sacrifice. Senseless slaughter. Punishment for not obeying. These are the actual contents of the early books. If you wanna do the whole "it's a metaphor" act, that's fine by me. Just don't expect everyone to try and feed themselves something as horrible as that and smile. Because christianity and judaism are so powerfully interwoven with history and politics that you would be a fool to discredit the importance of these two factors forming the religion itself. Example: Babylon is described as an evil city in Judaism. Why? Because the jewish tribes were at war with it at the time. Their faith literally vilified a nation which made the jews more prone to lend themselves to the war itself. Now babylon was no evil city at all. It was just another city. How does this work into your adept metaphorical reading skills? What hidden divine message to you see between the lines here? All I see is clever political manipulation and it was this beautiful technique that was passed down to the new testament as well because the romans saw the genius behind it. That's why they made it the main religion so suddenly after 300 years of persecution. Why? Because the god before that (the emperor cult etc.) was waining. The spiritual teachings in christianity are minimal, constrictive, non-flexible and grossly associated with the political climates of the time in order to manipulate and direct the masses of people with threats of damnation and promises of eternal life. This is OBVIOUS. You need not bend to my opinion, simply bend to your religion's own history and you will see that my opinion is one that is based on what christianity has done both culturally AND historically. As V from V for Vendetta said "I did not come for you for what you sought to do, I come for you for what you have done." I am not merely stating my opinion, I am stating my observations that form my core opinion on this religion. Simple as that. Quote: Already commented on organised religion in the beginning. If you find spiritual states and fruits difficult to reach by yourself and you are in constant need of affirmation from your surroundings- then that just proves what I said about christianity. It is a herd manipulation technique more than it is about personal sublimity, though I can understand enjoying being between people who are spiritual. But even more so, I think it's enjoyable to be between people who are their own person and you are yours. Just for the record, I didn't say I particularly like buddhism. I just respect it and I think many religions have much to learn from it, that's why it often shows up in my examples and so on and so forth. And yet Buddhism has its own set of bullshit, but right now we are talking about christianity, which has an abundance of it. Quote: Obviously you have not disclosed much about yourself to your religions authorities or other people within your religion. You've said just enough for them to agree with you wholeheartedly, thus you earn your affirmation, but you withheld just enough as well, only disclosing more for those who are just as Deviated (see what I did there?) about christianity as you are. I don't see why you are celebrating the divide of opinion in your own religion (not diversity, divide). I wonder how your spiritual elders would look at your drug habits? Please don't conjure up another "No true scotsman"... I see how you're trying to add the fact that you believe 'your kind' are the majority rather than those 'other, baaaad' christians. After all, then it wouldn't be a "No true scotsman", but instead just you apologising for the other, less intelligent minority of your religion. Well, I am positive you're just trying to glaze it over. Those "baaaad christians" are the absolute majority and the fact that proves this is that christianity as a whole shows no signs of maturing. If most people in christianity are as you describe them, then why is it that the 'uneducated' christians run the show and christianity untill this day comes off to many as something unpleasant, judgemental and pretentious? In fact, it is you who appears to me as the great minority in christianity, Deviate. Its apologist, which they wouldn't even appreciate or allow to reform anything. Also, just because christians bring up hindu teachings doesn't make them more open to them or mean that they show signs of progressiveness. They selectively pick out little pieces of the hindu teachings so that they can explain it in a christian view, thus enforcing the view that their religion is just as wise and thoughtful as the eastern religions of ancient times. And since people find these religions more and more compelling to their spiritual nature, thus christianity tries to 'analogize' themselves to them in order to gain psychological favour and that's why they brought it up, in case you wondered. But try making them talk about the broader aspects of the hindu faith and they'll be compelled to disagree completely, calling out heresy. That they are wrong and misunderstand the universe completely. Or, as you would do, try to find any metaphor to keep the show of tolerance running instead of confronting actual differences. Quote: I'm sorry, but that humbleness appeared sort of fake and just for the sake of argument. So you are part of the elite and there are people in the elite that understand the scriptures better than you? It sure was a nice try to smooth it, but you lost it the moment you said "True, i might understand it better than some" That sentence reveals everything to me. It is all this divide within these kind of organised religions that astound me and keeps the circle of strife going. Quote: You just said you felt that you have a deeper understand of Christianity than the average person and now you deny it? Or was that just one of the fabled paradoxes you were talking about earlier? Quote: Look, I'm not judging people or trying to be an asshole. Not really. I just have a problem with their behaviour and I'm merely calling them out to defend it, to help me understand wether they are themselves fully aware of what they are enforcing. Don't try to make me out to be following some sort of stereotype of christian people. I have met many christians and very few of them were as you describe them and the ones that were believed to achieve this through a different interpretation of the scriptures altogether, much like yourself. I asked them what they thought about how christianity came across as a whole because of their actions and they'd just shrug and go something down the lines of "they're not true christians". Sounds familiar? It took everything in me not to tell them "No. You're just not a christian. You're something beyond that and you should stop associating yourself with them until you see that they want to promote change and growth." But now I'm not gonna pass up on saying exactly that to you, Deviate. No, you see, if you truly believed in people being on their own trip, then you'd stop perpetuating organised religion. Especially one that is such as christianity is. Now i'm not saying people can't take elements from christianity or buddhism and apply it to themselves on their own spiritual journey. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be calling themselves christian or buddhist when they only follow part their teaching or interpret/slightly change it to suit their own understanding of life. By this logic- why have organised religion the way it is today at all? Which brings us back to what I wrote in the beginning. There's a perfect circle for you.
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Deviate said: My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some. -Deviate 9:1 I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person. -Deviate 9:3 That reads exactly like the Bible.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: ![]() I still respect sire Deviate tho -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: There is no contradiction here. I said I MAY understand Christianity better than some people. Where is the contradiction?
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: I dont have to debunk all 204 contradictions or what have you, I already proved my point that the list was not compiled by people who are educated in the interpretation of scripture. As for the rest of your post, all I see is your very lengthy opinions. Let me give you one example: "However, that I am sinful since before I was born is not something a spiritually sound person would come up with." How the heck do you know and who appointed you judge of who is "spiritually sound"? I mean, don't get me wrong you are certainly entitled to your opinions but I don't share your opinions and I have no desire to argue about things that are entirely subjective in nature.
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: You'e kidding right? Let me pick it apart for you, bone for bone:"True, I may understand it better than some." You first openly imply that you understand christianity better than some. The sentence is clearly in the present tense and the word 'may' doesn't change that It merely introduces a humbling element to your sentence, which I doubt is entirely genuine. More like means to stay ambiguous, since you're walking on thin ice. So by this point, right now, you humbly believe that you may understand the bible better than some people do.Moving on. "I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person." This sentence comes literally moments after the one that we just analysed beforehand. Said sentence implies that you no longer feel like you have an understanding of christianity that runs deeper than that of the average person aka "some". Apparently, you used to think that you did, but I can't quite make out why you'd think that that made you anything like me... So unless by saying 'used to feel that I had a deeper understanding' you mean that you changed your mind immediately after writing the first sentence where you clearly imply that you may have better knowledge on the bible than some, whilst now you do not- then you have clearly successfully contradicted yourself. But wait! I will take it a step further! How did it happen? Why did you contradict yourself without having the intention to? Well, your mistake was that you tried to use the good ol' 'i used to be like you' cliche that is very popular for obvious reasons among religious apologists and zealots alike. In your attempt to put yourself on higher grounds you managed to contradict your own opinion of yourself. Pride is a sin right? Well... ![]() Please don't try to 'metaphorise' yourself out of this one or try to tell me that one needs to 'know how to read your sentence in order to get it'. Just because I put little Deviate chapters under them doesn't mean it's the bible. Likewise, just because you put little chapters under some guy named David doesn't mean I have to interpret around his words either. If David said something down the lines of: "God said thus- take the city, pillage and burn it. Kill the men. Take all the women for your pleasure." Then that is what he fucking said in the name of god. There's no divine interpretation. dealwithit.gif Quote: You did not make your point, all you made is a straw man; you took a single point, (vaguely) debunked it and pretend that has debunked the entire thing ![]() Oh well, I'll make sure to note that 'interpretation' means 'waltzing around issues' in Christianity then ![]() I can understand how debunking christian scripture contradictions can seem a tad difficult when you can't even debunk your own How do I know that I am not sinful? Because I am not anything anyone else tells me that I am. Especially not in the case of being told what you are, not because of your actions, but merely because you have come into existence. That is a privilege reserved for me and me alone. Let me at the very least retain this single, most sacred right. May others define me by my actions and I will define myself by my faith, and not let other's faith define me. I judge what is spiritually sound by my virtues of spirituality. In my truly humble opinion on the matter, the virtues of spirituality are such that they should empower, enrich and deepen one's mind from the start so that one may, through one's own path, connect to his or her vision of divinity, sublimity, happiness and well-being to live a fulfilling and gratifying life until the day that death and transformation leads you on to whatever mystery awaits, smiling. The virtues of spirituality should not be to accuse, humiliate and coerce one to bow and grovel for the said things after you die. To add- when people ask for eternal life after death instead of a fulfilling life, that shows the inability to accept death. All in all, that is what I judge to be spiritually unsound. And the perpetuation of such unsound spiritual frameworks that have come to serve all the wrong reasons such as political control, even if in the past, is a crime against the pure, brilliant, potent, vulnerable and innocent mind of a child (for whom they most often come). If you have no desire to argue about it then don't bring it up ![]() We were originally not arguing about subjective things until you posted what that priest thought about the human soul (which is a subjective thing). We were arguing about the various contradictions of the bible until you started making your own ones. And that, my friend, is another perfect circle for you.
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Thanks again. You really know how to help us tired (of debating with the religious) old guys out.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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SOrry but some and average don't mean the same thing. Some could mean all of two people.
Quote: Great, thats your opinion. SPirituality can be very subjective because of the fact that there are infinite ways to express spiritual concepts. Christianity has always maintained that we were created in the image of God, but because of something called sin which means "missing the mark" evil entered the picture and caused widespread corruption. You can think and say whatever you like but the fact is that there is a ton of spiritual food for the soul within CHristianity. Maybe other religions appeal to you more. Maybe some of the things that have been done in the name of Christianity upset you. I don't really care. It doesnt change the fact that Christianity is one of the great religions.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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While you may be right that christianity has some food for the soul it's also true that it's a very dangerous (along with its Muslim cousin) religion in how it is often used.
That being the case if I were one I'd keep it to myself and walk that path alone and never proselytize. And it seems to me that if one were awake enough to see that soul food they would easily realize it has little to do with any religion per se. It can be found pure and alone without the negatives each religion brings to the mix. That's how I play the hand anyway.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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I know that many people tend to ignore their opponents posts after a certain 'I've made my point' kind of post, but oh well...
Quote: I'm not interested in debating exactly how many people you had in mind in either sentence, as it is irrelevant. Point is that you contradicted yourself by stating that you currently know christian scripture better than some in sentence A and then that you used to think you had better understanding on christian scripture in sentence B. Sentence A and B are directly in conflict in terms of tense (being present vs past), thus meaning that you either abandoned what you believed in in sentence A right after saying it, that sentence B is a lie or that you contradicted yourself by trying to put yourself on higher moral grounds by comparing your spiritual achievements to my own. Neither really makes you look very consistent Quote: Yes it is. But saying 'that's you're opinion' doesn't make what I said any less valid. Especially when I can substantiate my opinion and all you do is point to your interpretations that so conveniently separates any undesirable history, traits or individuals and their actions on the behalf of christianity from your own narrow vision of it. You are right, there are many ways to express spiritual concepts. And if you find whatever version of christianity you believe in- sound, then that's great just don't expect me or others to go with it and respect a faith that believes everyone who aren't following it will suffer eternally and that those who are will be rewarded. This sort of elitism is unsatisfactory and it is the driving force behind all the wicked things christianity has wrought upon others in this world. Even today, when virtually no one is threatening christianity directly (with it being the great religion and all) we, who just want to live our lives and have nothing to do with it still have to suffer the sheer ignorance, zeal and judgmental attitude of its followers and preachers. We still have to bypass their morally superior attitude when some form of new discovery in science or social change due to progressive thinking occurs. Why? I am not going to turn the other cheek. I will challenge it now and then. "Until the philosophy which hold one race superior / And another / Inferior / Is finally / And permanently / Discredited / And abandoned / -Everywhere is war - / Me say war." Imagine 'race' being 'spiritual race'. There's ton of spiritual food in christianity? Then by all means, Deviate. Consume on. But it's always nice to see the real face of a christian. You just don't care what your faith has done to others and you rigidly deny all substantiated accusation (most with a "no true Scotsman" logical fallacy). So, you think it's all about christianity remaining one of the great religions? Being all "It doesn't change the fact that Christianity is one of the great religions". Just for the record; it is only so because many people follow it, which doesn't make it any more right. Appealing to numbers in this way is an empty argument. Also. It is not so surprising to see so many people following it since its framework is that of self-perpetuating herd mentality and manipulation. Christianity's only strength seems to lie in the numbers of its followers and that is not a positive thing concerning how philosophies with far fewer followers have remained in the mind of man due to their relevancy and depth. ![]() Quote:
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Your opinion is valid for you, no one else.
Quote: First off that's not even what Christianity teaches. The Bible says "34 Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God shows no favoritism 35 But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him." and the Catechism of the Catholic Church says that anyone from any religion can be saved. So it would be nice if you could at the very least state things that were factual. But aside from that, I actually do expect you to respect Christianity. If you were a true spiritual seeker, then I would expect you to respect all other true spiritual seekers everywhere, from every religion. If you truly loved the Truth, I would expect you to have at least some respect for ALL expressions of the truth, especially the world's great religions which have benefited so many souls on their spiritual paths. Not to do so is pure arrogance and egoism in my opinion. You can't only bring up the bad parts, or if you acknowledge the good, it's only the good Christianity did in the WORLD. But religion is not just about improving the world, it is about bringing enlightenment to the soul. You cannot ignore all the souls who found salvation in Christianity, and we have no way of knowing what that number is, so you really are not qualified to assess Christianity. This sort of elitism is unsatisfactory and it is the driving force behind all the wicked things christianity has wrought upon others in this world. Even today, when virtually no one is threatening christianity directly (with it being the great religion and all) we, who just want to live our lives and have nothing to do with it still have to suffer the sheer ignorance, zeal and judgmental attitude of its followers and preachers. We still have to bypass their morally superior attitude when some form of new discovery in science or social change due to progressive thinking occurs. Quote: Oh please I dont think I can take any more hypocrisy. Can't you see that you are acting judgmentally and morally superior? You are just like those you hate. By the way, Christianity teaches its followers to conduct themselves in complete humility, and not to judge lest they be judged. If some Christians are not yet mature enough to adhere to these principles, then instead of judging them, you could gently point that out to them. Quote: Ok, I will imagine that it is you and you are holding that you are superior to Christians so you just discredited yourself. Nice job. Quote: No, I simply believe that people need to take responsibility for themselves instead of blaming their problems on religion. Quote: No, it is a great religion because it has a lot to offer one spiritually. I know this from experience. Look, I am a spiritual seeker. I seek spiritual understanding and peace of mind. Both of these are very much lacking in our world. Therefore, I take great interest in and have much respect for anything that leads people to look beyond the material world in search of spiritual truth. Christianity most certainly fits this bill. Now if you were an atheist I could understand your disdain for Christianity, but if you accept the value of something like Buddhism, then in my humble opinion, it is ridiculous not to respect Christianity. Why? Because you personally dislike some of the social effects? Social divisions and conflicts were bound to happen as a result of any religion based on the worship of God. Buddhism probably appeals to you because it is not based on the worship of a god. Does that mean Buddhism is a "better" religion than Christianity? Of course not. It's just different, that's all. If you would stop seeing the world through your preconvieved notions like the Buddhists advise, then you would see that. You would simply see things how they are minus the judgments of this thing is good and this other thing is bad. That doesn't mean you cant speak your mind and try to reform things which you see as less than optimal, but it does mean you treat what is sacred to others with respect. I am sorry you cannot understand that. Btw, I am sorry for coming off as sarcastic and contentious in this post. This is not how I prefer to interact, but if you refuse to show any respect then what else can I do but point out the hypocrisy? I think the better approach is to respect everyone, because everyone is doing their best with the knowledge they have. If Christians behave disrespectuflly toward some other group, it is because they are not yet enlightened enough to see a higher way. But if they adhere to the principles of Christianity, one day they will be enlightened enough and that is why I respect Christianity. I respect any path that leads to enlightenment. Doesn't mean I cant criticize it (for example, I have lots of criticism for certain protestant heresies) but that doesnt mean I dont still respect protestants. Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 12:36 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Way to ignore that you've been proven to contradict yourself
no "my mistake?" no "christian humility"? anyhoo! Quote: An opinion becomes valid and worthy of discussion when it is substantiated, which mine is. And you have up until this moment continuously failed to address any of my points directly. But now that you (somewhat) have, let get to it! Quote: Is it not? You sure about that, Deviate? You're telling me that the bible makes no reference to that those who do not believe in jesus christ will be condemned whatsoever? Quote: Quote: Quote: Are you going to interpret your way out of those as well? Are you gonna say that believing in jesus is just a metaphor for being spiritual? Then why try to convert people from every religion or non-religion to your own faith in the first place? Why state that heathens and other religions got it wrong? In my experience every person that strives for personal sublimity, the finer things in life and have a general appreciation for existence are spiritual in one form or the other. Why is christianity trying to monopolise the brand of spiritual symbolism and tradition? Dedicating entire centuries to LITERALLY demonising other forms of spirituality. You're asking me to respect that? You may not feel the same way about other religions and forms of spirituality, but the very teachings of the christian faith and the actions of its institutions throughout history obviously play a very different tune. They would most likely, if they'd know, call you out for a heretic. Oh great! Just look at the verse you quoted; "he who feareth him" More fear driven faith, ay? You just proved my point. The Catechism of the Catholic Church may very well state that anyone from any religion may be 'saved'. Which is just a sneaky way of saying we accept converts from all religions since being saved means becoming a christian ![]() Quote: Sad will be the days, when calling someone out on their bullshit in a substantiated manner and asking for an adequate explanation, will be thought of as judgemental moral superiority ![]() Please don't use the "you are as those you hate" cliche. First of all I don't hate the christian faith, I merely find the way it is operating as an organised religion to be intrusive and damaging to the human psyche. That wouldn't bother me so much if I could just go about my own spiritual and moral business, but sadly they are often up in people's faces to the point where they walk up to your door. The nerve! Quote: That doesn't surprise me since you often tend to imagine and interpret your way around the facts to make ends meet by all means, ignore the fact that I specifically spoke about how no spiritual practise should be considered superior than another and therefore people should just keep their faith to themselves without making a big organised deal out of themselves with bling-bling like christianity. I did not start wars to prove that I am superior to christians. Christians on the other hand have been involved in countless war of faith. I do not hold myself superior to christians in terms of spirituality. I merely criticise their actions and how they go about mentally damaging people. Once again: Sad will be the days, when calling someone out on their bullshit in a substantiated manner and asking for an adequate explanation, will be thought of as judgemental moral superiority. Quote: Oh sure! Is that what you would have told the bright people in the inquisition's dungeons? It that what you'll tell the child frightened and mentally scarred by christian guilt-ridden teachings? Or the child molested by the keepers of your faith that suppresses sexuality to the point were it becomes a secret obsession for many?Quote: Riiiight... it definitely has nothing to do with the fact that historically, the seat of the church has a hand in every aspect of politics. From crowning of kings to expansions of other countries. Nothing to do with the fact that conquistadors brought christianity to another continent (after slaughtering those who believed in Xotec of course). Nothing to do with the historical facts of conquering and the forced spread of the christian faith. Of course it was because the entire world just picked up on it- since its so great! you sure are naive. Just because many people talk english in the world doesn't mean the english language is great (it is wonderful though). It just means England owned 1/4 of the entire planet once ![]() Quote: By all means, seek your inner peace and spiritual understanding. I am not belittling you or spirituality for that matter. Just because christianity points to some spiritual experience doesn't mean that that is little more than the cheese hanging in front of the rat-wheel. I respect Buddhism for obvious reasons. I do not wholly agree with some minor aspects in their religion, but all in all- it's solid and it's culturally beneficial as it is mentally reassuring without the need to interpret yourself into it. It is one of the prime examples if organised religion that does work, in contrast to countless others, among which are christianity, that (at least currently) don't. If social division and conflict was, in your own words, bound to happen why did we just sit back and go "okay" at that? Just because it's bound to happen- then it suddenly becomes okay? The west prides itself for being such good problem solvers and logical lords, looks like we overlooked that one. I do not prefer buddhism to christianity because buddhism has no 'god' and christianity does. It is their actual behaviour that concerns me, not the details of their spiritual blueprint. I see things how they are. I see christianity for what it is. Not for what I'd want it to be or what it ideally should be, as is clearly your own case. Concerning bad and good- these are notions christianity are obsessed with, so stop projecting. I speak my mind. And in a darker time when christianity was at its strongest, attempting to do just that or seek reform would end with a manhunt, stakes and fire. So I am glad the age of reason has brought us to this moment in time were we can finally criticise what we do not like about christianity. And I cannot bring myself to respect it entirely. I only respect that it is a form of spirituality and that some people are genuinely struggling within it to have their spiritual experience. And that's because I respect people who are spiritual, i do not dismiss them as spiritual seekers and I do not dismiss you. However it pains me to see them (and you) wasting time with the christian faith, not to mention the fact that more people in christianity, means more enforcement of all the negative things we have talked about for a while now at the very least try to reform something and make the religion mature so we can lay it all to rest
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I don't think either of us do. I respect the spiritual path. I respect you. But I do not respect the overall behaviour of Christianity and I have substantiated over and over as to why. While it is true that they may not be enlightened enough to see a higher way, that doesn't make them any less christian. Thus the general view on christianity is be-smudged. So why not stop excluding them and just abandon ship; do something better instead? Just sayin -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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I don't get a clear sense of what you are saying anymore. On the one hand you say :
"First of all I don't hate the christian faith, I merely find the way it is operating as an organised religion to be intrusive and damaging to the human psyche." Ok, no argument there. I never said it was perfect. That doesn't mean you can't still respect it though. " However it pains me to see them (and you) wasting time with the christian faith I specifically spoke about how no spiritual practise should be considered superior than another " These two statements seem to contradict each other. Who are you to say that people are wasting their time? and in the post as saying no spiritual practice should be considered superior to another? give me a break. I learned some great spiritual techniques from Christianity and you're telling me they are a waste of time? Ok then I challenge you to teach me something more effective. Quote: True but my concern is not whether English is the best language or even whether people english properly but rather does English work as a language? The answer is yes. When applied to Christianity, does it work as a spiritual practice? the answer is also yes. Now your argument is like saying you have no respect for the english language because english speaking people massacred the indians and enslaved blacks. Just because they spoke english does not mean it was the cause of the evil they committed and similarly just because people were Christians doesnt their religion was the cause of the evil they committed. Even the crusades had causes more complex than just Christianity. The whole culture of europe was a warring culture. Do you think that if europe had been a peaceful culture and then Jesus came, the people would have fought wars because of him then? Or if he hadnt come do you think there would have been peace? People would just have found something else to fight over, like they always did. You cannot separate Christianity out from the cultures it took root in and act as if you know exactly what it did. Quote: No, you do not have to respect every single thing done by Christians in order to have respect for it as a religion and spiritual tradition. WHy do you always focus on the bad rather than the good? What about all the souls who found their inner divinity through Christianity? Why don't you talk about what a wonderful thing Christianity did for them? Of course Christianity is going to look bad if you only focus on the negative. As for why they tried to monopolize spirituality, I already explained that that was bound to happen, especially with a religion that honors a specific god. The problem here is that you are attributing the abuses of Christianity to Christianity itself, as though it were somehow at fault for what its supposed followers did. To me that is ridiculous. Whenever a religion grows as large as Christianity, you are going to have countless people who claim to follow it but really only care about themselves. And then people in the church often wanted power, not a good thing but this doesnt change the value of Christian spirituality at all. I am evaluating christianity not how it affected the world (which is impossible to say) but on its merit as a spiritual practice. You seem to be evaluating it based on how you perceive it to have effected history, which is impossible because you have no idea how many souls were saved by Christianity or how history would have enfolded had another religion rose to power in its place. You also have to consider that there were many heresies and false gods being worshiped in Biblical times and that is one reason Christianity became intolerant of other faiths. There is a difference between religions which teach worship of temporal things, like sun gods and moon gods and religions which direct one to the eternal. This is the reason Christians look on other religions with suspicion. Now I happen to be educated enough on spiritual matters to understand that not all non Christian religions are heretical, both Buddhism and Hinduism for example, direct one to the eternal just like Christianity. But this is why historically Christianity had to take a stand against other religions. It couldn't say well yeah its cool to be Christian but its just as valid to worship a log or an animal, becausse a fundamental tenet of the Christian faith is that you are not to worship things like logs and animals, but to seek the almighty eternal God. Edited by Deviate (12/04/13 03:54 PM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: It can certainly be found without religion but religion offers itself as aide. In my experience, enlightenment is difficult to attain, so why not take advantage of the aids which are available? To really understood my motivation in becoming Catholic though, you need to understand a little bit about my spiritual journey. I had a kundalani awakening (or something, I dont really know what it was) at age 20 and through drugs I was able to launch myself into a very high state of conscousness, my mind was almost completely still and silent and I lived that way in peace and bliss for about 2 months. However, I had had no religious training, had no faith in God and did not even know how to pray. As a result of my ignorance, I erred I did not stick properly to the path and instead of falling down a little bit, I fell all the way down into a lower state of being than I was in before I even started the spiritual path. Now try to imagine my frustration, after spending two months in divine bliss I fell all the way down into a hellish state completely ruled by carnal desires. I spent the next 10 years struggling not to kill myself. Every day I thought about the divine bliss i had experienced in my youth and every day it seemed further away. Some days I would question whether it was even real, may it just seemed like bliss to my young mind the way everything seems better when youre a kid. Anyway because I had seen very high truths, such as glimpsing total oneness and all that jazz, the last thing I wanted to do was start from scratch and have to follow some stupid religion that said things "all wisdom begins in fear of the Lord". I didnt want to live in fear of the Lord, I wanted to be one with the Lord like I had experienced at age 20. But after nearly a decade of darkness, anxiety, suicidality and almost constant hard drug addiction, I admitted to myself that what I was doing simply was not working and maybe the best thing for me would be to completely start the spiritual path over again, from scratch. So I swallowed my pride and that is what I did. I decided to go with Christianity because in the state I was in I absolutely could not meditate, meditation was hopeless, pure torture. The only thing I could do was pray. That was my only hope. So I decided to go with Christianity as my religion, because I loved Jesus and Christianity is all about prayer. So I picked up a Bible and began to read. I also started attending Mass on sundays and praying daily because thats what any good Christian should do. Anyway, as I read the holy scriptures they began to have an effect on me. Somehow they changed me and what was once boring words on a page became nourishment and healing for my soul. I felt as though God had revealed to me a sense of who he was, through his Word. Anyway, for the first time in a decade I began to feel emotions like love again, I began to care about things again, i began to have hope again. Before long I was back studying the teachings of Ramana Maharshi again, which before my mind had become too scattered for me to understand. Ramana Maharshi teaches that for those who suffer from this problem of a scattered mind, bhakti is the easiest way to tame it. This is what I have found to be true, through learning to love the Lord as a Christian I regained some control over my stupid mind and ironically that tiny difference leads to major changes in how I relate to life. Also, following a religion gives discipline to your spiritual life and it also helps you stay on the right track, because you are following a trail that has already been blazed and there are many markers along the way to show you that you are on the right track. Its much easier to get lost or simply get lazy if you dont have the reminder of a religion in your life. Simply attending Mass once a week does wonders for the soul
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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To each his own.
![]() My experience with organized religion was pretty much the opposite. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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The practice is according to the state of the seeker, so obviously you weren't in a state conductive to whatever practice you were given, or you did not persevere with faith and devotion. Prayer does work though, so does meditation. But one must be sincere and put a lot of effort into it and it must be "right effort", it is easy to get stuck somewhere along the way and then you undo whatever good your prayers do. Its not like I never prayed during the 10 years I was totally lost in darkness. But I did not pray with faith, so my prayers went unanswered.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I was given lies and deceit and hypocrisy and so you're right I never excelled at that nor did I preserver in it. Although my prayers were sincere and with faith in my youth they did not work and though my own efforts I extricated myself from that network of lies although not without a ton of baggage to drag me down in life. Religion has been the bane of my existence along with much of the world and lots of innocent Catholic altar boys who came into the church with faith only to have it shit on by a religious institution and covered up for generations. I guess their faith was not good enough in gods eyes to deserve better treatment and their fate was not his concern. Nor was mine. Believe whatever you will.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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No one is given a perfect upbringing. I was raised an atheist. How do you think that affected me? I grew up believing life was harsh and meaningless.
If you don't feel that your church gave you a proper understanding of the gospel, all I can say is study the teachings of the saints. You need to study what was said by real holy people, those who practice what they preach.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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You really don't get what I've been saying or don't want to.
I find the Christian religion wanting and criminal from my own studies. I've never met any christian who practiced what they preached. And I'm pretty certain that any real Jesus would not condone the Catholic churches (and other churches) abuses on humanity for all these years and in all these ways and the corrupt power structure and criminal activities of those at the top and down. By belonging to that organization imo you give support and legitimacy to those criminal activities. I find that to be the opposite of what I consider spirituality. So like I said if I was a believer in the bible and this Jesus stuff I wouldn't practice it through any organized church nor would I talk about it with others within the framework of any church. There is nothing wrong with atheism if the parents are loving, kind and supportive. That should be obvious. Btw life is harsh often and quite possibly meaningless in a religious sense. I know parents who teach this to bright happy and whole children who are loved and so content. I can give Veritas as a prime example although she was before your time here. She and her children live two doors down from me. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (12/06/13 12:58 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Whatever, your beliefs are true for you. They make sense to you in your reality matrix. I live in a different matrix and I am concerned with awakening, awakening to the bliss that lies at the core of every being. In this process of awakening, I have taken advantage of every spiritual technique I could to help me and some of the most powerful techniques I found, were within the Christian religion. I also have tremendous respect for Indian spirituality. Wake up from thought. Thoughts aren't real. They are what covers the self existent bliss of God. Of course you are going to read this and think about it, and that totally misses the point.
Quote: You can consider spirituality to be whatever you want, but awakening involves stepping back from thoughts, beliefs and concepts. Spirituality is not about giving legitimacy or not giving legitimacy to this or that thing, it is about transcendence. Edited by Deviate (12/07/13 07:18 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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You live in this word my friend.
What you do has an influence on the rest of the world. Just because I love dogs and Hitler loved dogs does not mean I'd be ok with becoming a Nazi. Ignore what the Catholic church has done and is doing today still all you want but in no way is there anything righteous in it imo. Once again, you don't need to align with non healthy religious organizations to transcend anything. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Lets say you want to learn mathematics and your local university has done some evil things in the past but it just so happens that they have a very good math program now. Would you not go and forgo your education because of some unjust thing that some people at the university who had nothing to do with your math professor had done?
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Yes, If it was torture, theft, murder, slave labor, pedophilia. I certainly fucking would. And I certainly wouldn't respect the math teacher for working there.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Well that would be your choice but I would choose to attend the University anyway because of the fact that what my education would allow me to do would far outweigh any of the consequences that would stem from associating myself with a university. I respect your decision though, why do you have trouble accepting mine? What is so wrong with the fact that I go to church and worship God with other people because this suits my spiritual growth? Who are you to judge me? What do you think is more important, awakening, or the associations you need to make in order to get to the state awakening?
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I don't have trouble accepting it. I have trouble respecting it. I expect such behavior.
![]() And I discuss this issue to give some food for thought to our audience because on some level I still care about our world.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Spiritual awakening is the best way to help the world. How can one bring peace to the world if one is not peaceful?
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Tell that to the Catholic Church. Slave labor, witch burning, pedophilia, land confiscation, forced conversions, torture etc. etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Intrusive and damaging to the human psyche is not only 'not perfect', it's outright wrong i don't respect religions that place themselves above others and damage their followers to perpetuate their suffering and project them onto others intrusively."When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest.” Your story of how you got into christianity obviously shows that you "need" it. And that need is above all the bad things that have been wrought upon others because of your faith. That's an odd relationship to something that should set you free, if you ask me ![]() Please don't try to copy-cat me your sentences contradicted each other in the very sense of time and general sense. Concerning my own sentences, you're just trying to interpret your way to a point using sophistry I wrote that there SHOULD be no superiority between spiritual practises, that is my belief and virtue on the said subject. That sure doesn't stop christianity from putting themselves above all others and due to such actions (OF THEIRS) I believe that people are wasting their time with it, not because they are an inferior teaching. If people want to get jiggy with hell & heaven, good and evil and guilt; that's their business if it works for them. But ideally those who do not wish to be involved should be left alone. That is respect. I can't show respect for a faith that offers none as a whole to others. Quote: I do not concern myself with your opinion of wether the english language works. I was making a point that christianity, like the english language is not widespread because it is particularly good (I should know, I speak 6 languages), but because historically, the british have ruled over a fourth of the planet, leaving traces of their culture everywhere. Christianity works in the same framework- people had it forced upon them due to the missionary ages and today we feel the results of such efforts. That analogy is faulty on so many different levels the english language is not an ideology. it is a mere language and therefore i cannot disrespect the language itself because that people who happened to communicate in it did some horrendous shite. Christianity, however, is an ideology and a lot of shite was done IN ITS NAME. That gives one reason to respect or disrespect it. That's the difference that breaks your little analogy. Now that you mentioned the enslavement of blacks- i find it funny how a people guided by such a (in your own words) "working" form of spiritual practise as christianity, where god created man in his image and loved all equally, could have fathomed to do such a thing to the african people and even better- to justify it in the name of the lord and nature ![]() There was nothing complex about the crusades. People in power utilised christianity to rally supporters for their wars in the name of jesus. Simple as that. The very fact that christianity did not heal europe's warring tendencies shows that it was adopted to further enhance them if jesus 'hadn't come' to do so, they would probably have found another name and done the exact same thing. Jesus was an opportunity for those in power to become the moral authority for the common person. They took it. It's useless to talk about "what would have been" because we are discussing the history and results of said spiritual practice. No need to argue just for the sake of arguing. Stay on topic please. And yes, I can observe how christianity arose, impacted and changed the specific culture where it came into existence. I don't understand why you would deny the validity of such observations ![]() Quote: I don't focus solely on the bad. I merely believe that the good done by christianity pales in comparison to the bad and that any spiritual relief found by a few people within the religion was attained at the expense of other people's pain. I'm not focusing at the bad per se, I've seen singular positive outcomes of christianity, true. But I'm looking at the overall view whilst you just happen to focus on your narrow super-positive and enlightening vision of christianity, so I have to point out all the nasty stuff to snap you out of it And when you see the overall view- you realise you can do better than that. Plain and simple.If the value of the pure teachings of christianity were so plain and obvious- why did no one push back against those who sought to further their sick agenda in the name of christianity? Why did virtually everyone scream in agreement for the witches to be burned, for the scientists to be killed and for wars to protect the kingdom of god? How is it that virtually the entire populace that followed this religion misunderstood its content to the point were they allowed evil people to pervert it for their own purposes? It's because it was never meant to wake people up. It was meant as means to control and rally people to a cause. You can't simply point to the positive things and say "this is what it's really all about". We all know that story. Ends justify the means? I think not. A spiritual practise is not merely what is written down. A spiritual practise is what its followers make of it. There were many heresies and false gods? See that's where you're wrong and were the rotten christian teachings really start to shine. There are no false gods and there are no heresies. People find their own spiritual way and sometimes that means a way other than a christian god. Who are christians to judge what a false god is? Completely ridiculous and childish. This shows how much of an immature religion it truly was and to some point- still is. So wait, you're saying that if the head of your spiritual teaching craves power and justifies this desire with christianity and he exercises his will with christianity, that that does somehow not diminish christianity at all? You, my good sir are in pure grade-A denial. To say "it was bound to happen" (that christianity would attack and rape other religions) is simply the biggest plea of ignorance I have seen from you. That is NOT answer and far from an actual defending argument. Oh boy, here we go "Temporal" things, huh? People do not only worship the sun or the moon itself. THROUGH them, they worship something much more subtle. They choose to worship through things they feel they have a connection with because the spiritual experience is just that- an experience of connectivity. Your christian discrimination and self-superiority is really starting to shine. No non-christian faiths are heretical. Faiths are merely faiths and we judge them by their impact on the human spiritual condition, not by what christianity thinks about them. Just because you claim to be more tolerant to other religions doesn't disarm the fact that you find yourself superior to them because you worship "the eternal" whilst in your own eyes, they worship "temporal things" and are therefore somehow "less connected" or "less refined" than yourself. It's a classic "tolerant christian" thing Christianity did not HAVE to take a stand against other religions and don't you try to justify it because you are failing miserably.Quote: Why the hell not? You're telling me that christians couldn't let other people worship what they wanted because it was in direct conflict with their own world-view? What kind of a backwards explanation is that? This just proves what i've been telling you all along ![]() Quote: Teaching you something shouldn't be a challenge. I believe in teaching through being an example and I'm not going to teach you how to find your own spiritual connection to the sublime and eternal by pointing you from one opinion to another. This should be your own experience and I respect that. I found that being completely genuine with oneself as a human being, not as a follower of certain spiritual teachings, helped me get closer to the spiritual experience than I previously could as a follower. Check my sig. That's all I'm going to say about it ![]() Quote: FAULTY ANALOGY- AGAIN! In your analogy- the mathematics course is the christian teachings. The university is the organised body of the teachings aka the church. Well, it doesn't work that way because MATHEMATICS hasn't taught questionable doctrines that leads people to evil acts in contrast to the CHRISTIAN TEACHINGS. In this analogy of yours, if within the principles of mathematics it would be taught that people who believe in another form of mathematics should be put to the stake and burned- THEN your analogy would be worth discussing. But in the real world, mathematics has not taught such things and if a university that teaches maths had done evil acts existed, then maths in itself would have nothing to do with their acts and the university should be held accountable (I don't understand how in this little fantasy of yours they still haven't been...). But when talking about the church- the christian teachings HAVE taught some outright pretty evil shit and people in the church have merely been following what was written plainly on paper. Therefore the christian teachings have everything to do with what the christian church has done and is still doing today. Even they themselves say that they base their actions on the christian teachings AND they back that statement up with scriptures. So stop trying to give us the impression that everyone besides yourself, including the heads of the church, have simply misunderstood christianity whilst you and a select few hold all the answers. You're in denial just as all your fellow apologist. "No true scotsman" is your holy grail. Exclude all the bad people and their actions as "no true christians" and all the bad and evil scripture as "a true christian will understand the holiness in it". Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/09/13 09:29 AM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Your awakening is at the expense of enforcing a corrupt institution. It is selfish. Read your bible at home. Make and altar and pray at home. Listen to yourself and stop enforcing the insistent and inconsiderable expanse of your faith. Why enforce the church just because if makes a convenient place for you to worship and feel good? That's their trick. They make you dependable on them and you think you're free. They don't care what you think you're doing. The point is what comes out of having masses of people attend and be directed or influenced by you in the stage of the world. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/09/13 09:51 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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The church doesn't make you free, it is merely an aide like all other spiritual practices. Some people need that aide. I do read my Bible at home but it is nice to worship with other people also. You learn things from meeting other people who are also on the spiritual path that you simply dont learn by yourself. Also, i prefer to surround myself with spiritual people rather than worldly people and church is a great place to connect with other people who share an interest in the spiritual part of life. You think thats selfish? well I dont care, sometimes you have to look after yourself, especially when you are as psychologically ill as i was. After the spiritual disaster of my early 20s I got stuck in a state of consciousness that I had no idea how to get out of and no awareness practices worked for me. Orginally I was drawn to the path of awareness, Buddhism and Hinduism, but after my spiritual disaster, I lost complete control of my ability to concentrate.
I thought I was doomed until as I was re-reading Ramana Maharshi's teachings I saw that he said that love for God could fix everything, no matter how bad you were at meditation. It was rthen I realized I needed to develop love for God. It is possible to do this without a religion but I was very unorganized and undisciplined. I needed a clear, systematic approach that would give structure to my spiritual path. Obviously this is not speaking from high levels of spiritual realization or anything close to them. At high levels, the spirit takes over and you stop needing anything outside yourself. But i was stuck far below this level. Anyway, the church gave me exactly what I needed to get me beyond that stage and it gave me even more than that. That is when I realized what a great resource it was. And truly regardless of all the "bad" things you can come up with, it is a great spiritual resource. You have to understand that we live in a world where, from a spiritual perspective, the average person is crazy, with a totally fabricated value system. Therefore, anything that helps one to awake up out of this is very good by worldly standards. " There were many heresies and false gods? See that's where you're wrong and were the rotten christian teachings really start to shine. There are no false gods and there are no heresies. People find their own spiritual way and sometimes that means a way other than a christian god. Who are christians to judge what a false god is? " who are you to judge Christianity? if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too. The things Christians have done, in the name of Jesus dont really make a difference as far as I am concerned. The fact is that Jesus came to teach a new way of being. several people understood and followed his message and a huge religion grew out of that movement and its teachings are about as good and true as any other religion. The fact that some Christians did bad things doesnt change the truth of the teachings or the integrity of those who follow them. In fact as far as I am concerned, Buddhism is just the same teachings under a different name. Thats why I cant help but think anyone who likes Buddhism but hates Christianity is a little batty. To me they are the same thing. I mean what are going to argue, Buddha phrased it better? well what if I am on a level where I dont care about phrasing? Edited by Deviate (12/10/13 05:25 AM)
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Stranger Registered: 03/23/13 Posts: 72 Loc: CT Last seen: 9 years, 26 days |
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I'll tell you why there are so many contradictions in the bible: It's because of all the changes the Hebrew people went through and the subsequent changes in their theology. You see truth seekers, the Hebrew people went through many permutations after being exposed to various foreign cultures. The most significant of which was the Babylonian captivity, were you had some Jews coming back to Israel after many years talking about life after death or the afterlife if you prefer, heaven and hell and the devil, Zoroastrian concepts not seen in pre exile Judaism. I'd go so far as to say that if there had been no Babylonian captivity there would have been no Book of Daniel, no Christianity, no Book of Enoch, no Gnosticism.
Edited by Skydawg (12/11/13 06:26 PM)
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Quote: Well said sir! Also, many of these contradictions are taken completely out of context. I am not a hardline Christian, but I was raised to be one by my parents and attended a Christian primary school. I have not been to inside of a church in many years. Between my pastor commiting suicide and the hypocrisy; I decided to walk my own path. I've never been too keen on the literal interpretation of the Bible, but like most religions there is a lot that can be learned from the teachings it contains. -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Certainly the path I would take and the same one Jesus seemed to have taken away from the religious leaders of his time.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: From how you described your relationship to christianity in this and other threads- seems like it's an aide you can't do without to me You can surround yourself with enjoyable people anywhere you want, why specifically choose the church? Because you have grown dependent on their patron like figure to sanction your behaviour?It's selfish because you are enforcing an institution that is criminal, prejudice, manipulative, economical and political just to experience a sense of spiritual relief from a life that you feel has threatened your very being (again, what I put together from your story of entering christianity). And no wonder that is part of the christian framework. But the truly selfish part is where you ignore how many people christianity leans on by putting pressure on them for not adopting or following their beliefs. How christianity uses other people as let-outs of spiritual and moral superiority. Heck, within the institution they tend to do it so much that it even starts to happen amongst themselves How you find that to be compatible with an institution that should in theory be the very embodiment of the spiritual path is beyond me If christianity was as mature a religion as buddhism and they would recede from the worldly matters and practise their beliefs in peace, only sending out an humble emissary once in a while and solely accepting those who come to learn themselves- that would be a whole other story. Let me relate to you here. I've had my own personality/spirituality crisis in the beginning of my 20s a while back. The details are unimportant. Point is; panic attacks, intense derealization, general anxiety, constant odd physical sensations, feeling existential dread and worry. Think it was easy for me to focus? No. When a person close to me tried to bring me into Krsna'ism at the time, did I give in? No. Religious guilt and god-anxiety was part of my problem, mainly established by christian theology when I was a kid. Instead, I set out with the bits and pieces of philosophy that inspired me, with the meditation techniques that worked for me, decided to strip gods of their names and concepts and just prepare to experience what I would. I armed myself with critical thinking and the knowledge vaults of science (especially physiology) since my crisis clearly felt as much physical as it did psychological. I meditated, I observed how I experienced certain things in life, my behaviour and habits, I knew there was something wrong deep down inside. I weighed and changed how I viewed many things, including drugs. I suffered through the symptoms and observed how i reacted to them the way I did. What triggered them? Many fears, personality disorders, complexes became clear to me. Years of ups and downs. Holy grails that would alleviate me and black holes that would suck me right back in; it was the wildest ride of my life without a doubt and I wouldn't have traded it for a "god will fix everything" if I could do it all over again. Not to say that what I did was better than what someone else would have chosen. Point is you have given yourself to god AND to a religion. Which would be fine if the institution overseeing the religion wasn't just plain and simply being a complete douce to other people. And thus we criticise the religion for making this wholly possible. Wait So, I criticise christianity for judging and intruding on other people's spiritual path and you then tell me 'who are you to judge christianity, if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too.' ? What is wrong with you, Deviate? are you even reading what I'm writing? You're clearly ignoring my point. Yes its fine that people find their own spiritual path, including if its christianity. What is not fine is that christianity tends to get on peoples backs for finding their own spiritual path, that is to say- NOT christianity. Get. It. Through. Your. Head. ![]() "The things Christians have done, in the name of Jesus dont really make a difference as far as I am concerned." I'm not even going to answer this. What jesus taught was not really that revolutionary tbh and if you think that that was the way christianity grew to become such a huge religion, that just shows how little you actually know about your own religion. I like Buddhism as an organised religion for the maturity they have demonstrated and the peaceful, wise actions they display in the world-theatre, being somewhat divided among themselves as they are. I dislike Christianity as an organised religion for the immature, judgemental, insistent attitude they have towards others and the horrible things done and that will be done in its name. They are NOT the same thing. Cola and Water are both a beverage. They do not have the same effect on your organism just because you use them the same way. But that's actually not even my point. I don't care what level you think you're on It's not about who phrased it better, because that's completely subjective. It's about this: someone thought it would be better to form a group for said spiritual practise. Now, whilst following that spiritual path, what did the group do for humanity as a whole? Did they contribute spiritually more than they negatively impacted people's lives? Simple as that. And even if christianity is on the second half (imo), that doesn't mean they couldn't adjust, admit their mistakes and change their ways over time and be just as loved and respected as buddhism probably is. It's just that it seems to choose not to ![]() Quote: Yo Skydawg, I heard you like change. So we put a change in your change so you can change while we change ![]() Quote: Slick name Completely out of context, huh? I seem to be getting that a lot. Will you do me the honour of proving them wrong then? Shouldn't be too hard if it's all just a matter of context that the rest of us uneducated are unaware about, right? Your own path? Good for you. That's what I'm advocating here as well I don't see much you can learn from christianity, but then again, might just not be my taste of phrasing. But to me, it would appear their scriptures are as inconsistent as are their actions as a group when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see. Quote: Hear hear! "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Sure sounds like a "my way or the highway" to me Why not "Jesus said to him, "I am a way, a truth, and life; everyone comes to the Father through Me" ??? That would have saved so many lives and people who would enjoy christiniaty could enjoy that, whilst those who enjoy paganism could enjoy that ![]() But nooooo.... it would appear 99.99% of christians weren't above phrasing, Deviate. You know why? Cause you're only above phrasing when the obvious meaning doesn't suit your opinion In the religious leader of the time, such phrasing suited them just fine. After all, they had to get a war going, there was power to gain!
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/13/13 11:34 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Basically what it comes down to is that you prefer Buddhism over Christianity. That's all. The rest is merely your own value judgments and as someone knowledgeable about Buddhism you should know how baseless those are.
The path of awareness taught in Buddhism is very different from the faith path in Christianity. Many of the problems associated with the latter are in my opinion products of the faith path. Instead of expanding awareness it often leads to narrow mindedness as a side effect. This is unfortunate but I dont really see what could have been done about it. The path of awareness is not appropriate for many people, they either just dont get it or cannot control their minds well enough to meditate. This is where I was when I found CHristianity. Any sort of mindfulness or awareness practices were sheer torture for me, because of the state my mind was in, even though my personality actually is much more drawn to the path of awareness than the faith path. It was a huge inner struggle for me to move from the path of awareness to the faith path, but because of the damage done to my mind I was not able to follow the path of awareness at that time. Quote: Yes, who are you to judge especially if you think judging is wrong? two wrong dont make a right. The path of faith is based in value judgments. The path of awareness is not. One path is not superior to the other, they are each according to the state of mind of the aspirant. your judgments are relative to you and if you think they are true in an ultimate sense, you have not understood Buddhism. Its perfectly fine to say that Buddhism tends to lead to peace and tolerance whereas CHristianity tends to leads to narrow mindedness and intolerance. I would agree. Does that mean that Buddhism is better than CHrisianity? of course not. Thats a value judgment. Its baseless. ALso, why should I assume your posts are a fair comparison? for instance you ingore the fact that Christians have done far more care for the poor than Buddhists. I mean, there is absolutely no reason for me to take what you are saying as anything more than your personal preference. Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 11:45 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: the catholic church is an enormous church that has existed since the time of the apostles. It has done tons of good and tons of bad. how one feels about it is really subjective. Me having a spiritual worldview, i tend to look at the good and forgive the bad because i see the spiritual advancement of humanity as being worth the side effects and corruption that come from organized religion. I fully understand if someone else doesnt see things that way, but I would appreciate it if they would respect the fact that the catholic church is sacred to me. Now why do I support organized religion despite all the corruption and scandal? I explain below. Quote: Well again it comes down to personal beliefs. If you believe in the Real Presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in the most blessed sacrament of the alter, you are going to see the church very differently from someone who believes that this Lords supper is merely symbolic. Before I became catholic I really didnt see the difference between catholicism and protestantism and what not. Was all the same to me. After I learned more about the various denominations I realized that the belief in the real presence was central to the catholic faith as well as Eastern Orthodox. At the time I had a very difficult time believing in that Jesus was present in a piece of bread. I remember the first time I went to adoration, it seemed absurd to me. Everyone sitting around adoring a little tiny piece of bread, lol. I was like what the hell is this all about? We worship a cracker? I really did not believe in the real presence until my first communion, during which I was hit with an incredibly powerful spiritual energy. of course i dont expect my experience to mean anything to you or to anyone else but for me, it would be irrational to deny my own experience. there are really only two possibilites here. possibility A) Jesus Christ is actually present in the most blessed sacrament or at least some very powerful form of spiritual energy is transmitted during this ritual in some way. possibility B) it was a placebo effect. Now, obviously you are going to think it was B because that fits better with your belief system and thats fine. I would think you were dumb if someone elses spiritual experiences were convincing to you. However, in my case it was my own experience. I had to decide which possibility was more likely. Given myself, i know that the placebo effect has very little if any effect on me. For example, I have gotten bunk drugs before and I once accidentally injected a shot of water thinking it was heroin. Now that was a perfect instance to test the placebo effect. I was expecting a huge heroin rush and instead i felt essentially nothing. I remember instantly thinking "man that heroin sucked. I barely felt a thing". so this tells me that it is unlikely that the placebo effect can be mistaken for something which is truly active. Furthermore, I was not even expecting to feel anything from the Eucharist and beyond that, I had been very depressed and dead inside for many years. Its not like I was the type of person given to strong emotions or meaningfull experiences. On the contrary i was the type of person who could scarcely find a reason to get out of bed in the morning and nothing much ever really effected me or could change how i felt even the slightest bit, not even large doses of heroin. I had remained in the same flat emotionally dead headspace for years. Its not like I was capable of fooling myself into feeling even a little bit alive, let alone the type of power I experienced in the Eucharist. Anyway, point being I recognized the spiritual energy in the Eucharist IMMEDIATELY. In fact it was the exact same energy which has possessed me many times while under the influence of psychedelics, only in a much purer more concentrated form. So did my brain somehow generate that experience spontaneously when I consumed the body of Christ because of the circumstances and my expectations? For the sake of reason I will admit that it is possible, but it strikes me as so insanely unlikely that I am logically forced to conclude that the other possibility is actually more likely. Jesus Christ is actually present in the most blessed sacrament of the alter as the church has taught and saints have attested to for the past 2,000 years. Now given this, my reasons for devotion to the church should be obvious. Its not a matter of my choosing. Its a matter of the fact that if I believe Jesus Christ is present in the holy eucharist, how can I not take advantage of the opportunity to actually consume his body and blood? I dont care what evils the church has done, it apparently possesses something of unmeasurable value. There is no one more surprised by this than I was. But I am not going to supress and deny my own experience of divinity just because it doesnt fit with what I thought possible prior. I was incredibly skeptical about the Real Presence and even if it were possible, i was skeptical that this apparently corrupt scandalous church actually possessed something of this nature. It reminded me of an episode of that show with that guy who goes around the world eating crazy foods. In one episode, he goes to eat with some bushmen and one night they perform one of their religious rituals with him. During the ritual something happens to him and he experiences some form of spiritual energy that blows him away. I never expected to experience something like that myself, let alone in a mainstream church, but it happened and not only once but I have since had numerous encounters with the Cosmic Christ through holy communion. Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:03 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Now given this, my reasons for devotion to the church should be obvious. Its not a matter of my choosing. Its a matter of the fact that if I believe Jesus Christ is present in the holy eucharist, how can I not take advantage of the opportunity to actually consume his body and blood? I dont care what evils the church has done, it apparently possesses something of unmeasurable value. There is no one more surprised by this than I was. But I am not going to supress and deny my own experience of divinity just because it makes me unpopular on this forum.
I guess that sums up the difference between you and me. I care for something more than just myself. But I'm not going to condemn you for choosing otherwise. In many ways you and I are alike. But there is an incredibly vast chasm between us in other ways and I really don't know what to make of that. I consider you somewhat of an enigma. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 4 months |
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Quote: Ramana Maharshi compared the Bodhisattva path to a dreamer who swears not to wake up until all the other people in his dream have awakened. Get it? Thats not to say we should not care about others, only that our primarily responsibility is to wake up "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness and then all else shall be added unto you". The twig in your brothers eye and beam in your own eye parable also comes to mind. Jesus said to first remove the beam from your own and then you will see clearly to remove the beam from your brothers eye. So it can seem selfish at times but its a matter of the fact that if I am not mentally and spiritually healthy myself I am really in no position to help anyone else.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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If I support or condone organizations harm others I'll never be spiritually ready imo nor would I want to be. That's not spiritual.
I'll never agree with your position on this. It makes less than no logical sense. It's pathological imo. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Stranger Registered: 03/23/13 Posts: 72 Loc: CT Last seen: 9 years, 26 days |
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After all my studies on the subject of Christianity, Gnosticism is by far my favorite approach. It stresses personal revelation over personal salvation and has a very different take on things than traditional Christianity and is well worth exploring. Start with Miguel Conner, He mixes humor with wisdom and has had a lot of towering scholars on his radio program Aeon byte Gnostic radio. He also has a lot of his radio shows on youtube.
http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio. Edited by Skydawg (12/13/13 06:09 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I agree. They don't seem to organize around criminal institutions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Slick name Completely out of context, huh? I seem to be getting that a lot. Will you do me the honour of proving them wrong then? Shouldn't be too hard if it's all just a matter of context that the rest of us uneducated are unaware about, right? Your own path? Good for you. That's what I'm advocating here as well I don't see much you can learn from christianity, but then again, might just not be my taste of phrasing. But to me, it would appear their scriptures are as inconsistent as are their actions as a group when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see.
The onus is not on me to prove. This forum is meant for discussion not debate. I picked up my Bible and checked out the first two contradictions and they are essentially moot. Some in this list are comparing new vs old testaments which are well known to have somewhat conflicting versions of God. That said, the message was consistent if one reads the surrounding verses. If you are really interested google the chapter(s)/verse(s) referenced and read the verses leading up to and following. This will give the true context, you can interpret it how you choose but I guess we will have to agree to disagree until then. As far as wisdom contained... John 15:17 comes to mind "This is my command: Love each other" - Jesus -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Quote: My thoughts exactly! -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: That's not what it comes down to no need to simplify everything to that level, Deviate. I do prefer Buddhism over Christianity. I think any person would acknowledge the possible validity of both of these spiritual teachings (which I have)Quote: But obviously, looking back on political, social and cultural influence; I'd prefer a religion to be as mature as Buddhism. In other words; Christianity may have a lump of gold (being their teachings) but they tend to smash heads with it and therefore I prefer Buddhism. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. But again, no. This is not what it "comes down to". We've been talking about the inconsistencies, vile behaviour, mentally scarring properties, historical tragedies, insistent attitude of christianity as an organised religion functioning in a the human socium. Get that through your head and stop trying to derail this discussion from the actual point. Quote: Dude... what the actual fuck? There's a difference between objectively criticising a groups behaviour and being a judgemental asshole who thinks his opinion on what life is all about is the most refined and sublime one out there, so refined that others just HAVE to think the same way. I'm remarking on christianity's reoccurring behaviour to intrude on other people's spiritual path. I'm not judging christianity "as a person", I'm criticising it as an establishment with certain unwanted traits. You saying "if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too" is completely backwards Yes, in that case christianity would be ok too... if they didn't intrude with their beliefs on those said people that found their own way! Why are you ignoring this?Why do you keep bringing up Buddhism? Do you think I'm some sort of buddhist? I don't give 2 shits about how much of your version of buddhist philosophy you think I seem to have understood I am not a buddhist. I merely respect buddhism more than christianity for reasons I have stated over and over. You're just being wilfully ignorant trying to spin this topic around as if I was attacking Christianity as a form of spiritual practise rather than an organised religion in the context of human history, culture and sociology. Christianity has brought so much pain and suffering to people throughout the world. People have destroyed entire civilisation in the name of jesus. That is what I am criticising. Just man the fuck up and accept this is the state of affairs in christianity. The same mentality that drove people to burn others for their beliefs is still largely there and the list i posted in my first post is a testimony to the sheer hypocrisy The only thing that has kept that 'burn the witch' mentality at bay are the implications that the age of rationalism has thankfully established. Without those, given their way, christians would still be going bananas.Quote: Oh, so now you agree? Well that's a step forward. Again. No one has been talking about what is better, I already established that. I was merely talking abut what you just mentioned and furthermore agreed with... so yeah. It is not a secret i prefer buddhism. Take it as you will. Thing is, no amount of thousands of poors taken care of compares to the sheer amount of people tortured, murdered and defiled by the inquisition. It can't compete with the numbers of people wiped from a civilisation in the name of jesus by the conquistadors. A little charity work for the stage of the world doesn't correct what has been done so easily, because what has been done are terrible terrible crimes against humanity. But now it's done. And it's in the past. But christianity could at the very least take this chance to regain some respect and change their insistent and elitist traits, but nooooo.... Quote: The church was formally established a good 300 years after christ, right? Btw that is very strange to me, but that's a different story. A spiritual world-view that ignores the wrongs of a spiritual organisation by calling it forgiveness? You can have your peer-inflicted desperate spiritual experience, but you enjoyed that rush so much that you have justified corruption as a tolerable side-effect? Dude, seriously... Just...wow.
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/18/13 02:22 PM)
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Lol. Great exchange going on here. Beats dusting, washing the dishes or anything on TV, for sure.
Deviate is a fascinating character. A weird blend of fairly standard Catholic dogma (bordering on fundamentalism) and Eastern mystical stuff. Oh lordy. Talk about threading that very very very fine needle. Lol. Enough from me. Carry on...
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: ![]() Let me guess. Rated Deviate. Didn't get a rating back. Trying to push it out of him are we? ![]() No, but seriously. I don't see what is outright fascinating about a semi-dogmatic christian selective eastern philosophy hybrid, who thinks that the corruption of the institution pioneering his chosen form of spiritual practise is merely a justifiable side-effect as long as he can get to feel the holy ghost. Riiiiight.....
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: No. That is not a logically valid inference. Just because you expected a rush and a placebo shot of water didn't deliver, doesn't mean that all your built-up expectations over the years combined with your faith-based belief system couldn't combine to produce a "spiritual" experience when stimulated by the appropriate set and setting (Eucharist at a church while surrounded by like-minded believers and a conducive atmosphere). Just sayin'.
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote:
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Saṃsāra Registered: 12/28/12 Posts: 2,769 Loc: Interdependent C Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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maybe religions like most based on jesus were drawn completely out of context. Huge game of telephone happening until it was actually attempted to be organized... then who knows the intentions of those people. If jesus was an enlightened being spreading teachings similar to what the Buddha was saying, then it would seem the last thing he would have intended were for his words to be indoctrinated or worshipped as concrete knowledge to live and die for. Maybe it was all meant to create insight into one's true nature(self)... then ignorant other's began building and creating, elaborating as us imperfect/confused/ego-drunk humans are known to do.
"The Jesus Prayer acts as a constant reminder to make man look inward at all times, to become aware of his fleeting thoughts, sudden emotions and even movements so that it may make him try to control them...By scrutinizing and observing his own inner self he will obtain an increasing knowledge of his worthlessness which may fill him with despair....These are the birth pangs of the spirit and the groanings of awakening spirituality in man...One is advised to repeat the prayer of Jesus in "silence."...Silence here is meant to include inner silence; the silence of one's own mind, the arresting of the imagination from the ever-turbulent and ever present stream of thoughts, words, impressions, pictures and daydreams, which keep one asleep. This is not easy, as the mind works almost autonomously." - no idea "It is not a question of good or bad thoughts. Reality, Truth, God, Nirvana cannot be found by thought, because thought belongs to the Level of Being established by consciousness and not to that higher Level which is established by self-awareness. At the latter, thought has its legitimate place, but it is a subservient one. Thoughts cannot lead to awakening because the whole point is to awaken from thinking into "seeing." Thought can raise any number of questions; they may all be interesting, but their answers do nothing to wake us up. In Buddhism, they are called "vain thoughts": This is called the blind alley of opinions, the gorge of opinions, the bramble of opinions, the thicket of opinions, the net of opinions. Opinion, O disciples, is a disease; opinion is a tumor; opinion is a sore. He who has overcome all opinions, O disciples, is called a saint, one who knows." "our circumstances are not merely the facts of life as we meet them, but also, and even more, the ideas in our minds. It is impossible to obtain any control over circumstances without first obtaining control over the ideas in one's mind, and the most important-as well as the most universal-teaching of all the religions is that vipassana(to use a Buddhist term), clarity of vision, can be attained only by him who succeeds in putting the "thinking function" in its place, so that it maintains silence when ordered to do so and moves into action only when given a definite and specific task." quote from The Cloud of Unknowing: "therefore the vigorous working of your imagination, which is always so active...must as often be suppressed. Unless you suppress it, it will suppress you." A Guide For The Perplexed by E.F Schumacher -------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire." "Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas" Edited by Sse (12/18/13 04:46 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: I imagined something like this as well. Well said -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Saṃsāra Registered: 12/28/12 Posts: 2,769 Loc: Interdependent C Last seen: 6 years, 8 months |
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Ty kind sir
![]() more grist for thee mill "In order to keep the mind on one thing by use of a short prayer, it is necessary to preserve attention and so lead it into the heart: for so long as the mind remains in the head, where thoughts jostle one another, it has no time to concentrate on one thing. But when attention descends into the heart, it attracts all the powers of the soul and body into one point there. This concentration of all human life in one place is immediately reflected in the heart by a special sensation that is the beginning of future warmth. This sensation, faint at the beginning, becomes gradually stronger, firmer, deeper. At first only tepid, it grows into warm feeling and concentrates the attention upon itself. And so it comes about that, whereas in the initial stages the attention is kept in the heart by an effort of will, in due course this attention, by its own vigour, gives birth to warmth in the heart. This warmth then holds the attention without special effort. From this, the two go on supporting one another, and must remain inseparable; because dispersion of attention cools the warmth, and diminishing warmth weakens attention." -Theophan the Recluse(1815-1894) -------------------- "Springs of water welling from the fire" "Life may seem to flee in a moment, but when the mind is freed of the veil of ignorance, and illusion that comes between the mind and the truth, life and death are only opposite sides of the same coin - "water welling from the fire." "Within us, we carry the world of no-birth and no-death. But we never touch it, because we live only with our notions." -Thich Nhat Hanh instant "Experience always goes beyond ideas"
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Quote: Harsh. We're all trying to cozy up to the "holy spirit." Don't be a hypocrite. That's why you're here, posting in this forum. Deviate's vocabulary may be exotic and different from most posters, but in his own way he's doing what we're all doing.
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Registered: 02/10/08 Posts: 56,232 |
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Quote: After she declined my offer to trade a happy ending for fifty bucks, we left on bad terms. Right now I'm seeking freedom and happiness apart from any kind of spirit, holy or otherwise--but I have heard tell invoking the Goetia at least produces well-satisfied customers, of course provided you're fine with mixing a little blood with your sexual fluids.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Quote: QFT What some people won't do for a little free bread and wine.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Quote: On this one I don't agree with you. Tolerating huge evils so one can get a fix is not my idea of spiritual. There is doing and then there's doing. I lost a huge chunk of my respect for his position when he claimed not to care what the Church does as long as he can take communion. I do give him big points for honestly admitting to it however. Most would not. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (12/18/13 05:25 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Right on -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Quote: Well, I'm married to a devout and very together Catholic, so maybe I have some perspective on the matter that others don't. (Or maybe not.) There are plenty of Catholics who condemn the child abuse and cover-up thereof. Plenty who condemn the millions spent trying to derail civil rights protections for gay and lesbian people when that money could go to feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. Actually, polls show that, on the average, American Catholics are the most socially progressive of all American Christian denominations. Personally, I think fundamentalist Catholicism (which Deviate sort of teeters close to ) is the moral equivalent of voodoo... but I'm hesitant to broad-brush all Catholics that way.Everyone to their own way, as long as we all do as little harm as is humanly possible.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Like i told Deviate, if you lend them your support in any way you are condoning what they do and have done imo. I could care less if it's your gf. Calling the rest fundys is just a way to avoid addressing your gfs behaviors most likely.
![]() And calling any catholic "very together" is really laughable imo. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC Edited by Icelander (12/18/13 07:59 PM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: "No True Scotsman" is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine."
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Stranger Registered: 02/13/13 Posts: 779 Last seen: 10 years, 28 days |
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Quote: You'd think that someone like you, Icelander, who's part of a much-maligned and stereotyped community (the drug-using community) would know better than to broad-brush an entire population using gross stereotypes -- as you do with Catholics, for instance. Are you the "stoned-out, worthless leech on society" that many would paint you as -- because you're a drug user? As in... "...calling any catholic "very together" is really laughable," perhaps? I bet you get the point. Talk about individuals, not groups. Don't broad-brush. (And btw... my spouse is a "he." )
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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"stoned-out, worthless leech on society
Yes actually that's me. ![]() I don't recant one thing I've ever said about the Catholic Church or the dupes that support it. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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others are just flat out contradictions, not just contradictions in essence or theory.


when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see.

) is the moral equivalent of voodoo... but I'm hesitant to broad-brush all Catholics that way.
