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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Icelander]
    #4874547 -

This is an interesting topic and and that letter is just cool. I don't put much stock in "stuff", but such a personal letter by Hoffman himself, would be a most treasured possession of mine. How cool is that!

I have been helped in my own struggle with my inner religious views from reading this thread and just wanted to thank you guys for it.

I can't say that I possess much knowledge other than the standard religious dogma that is all too prevalent these days. I was raised strict Catholic and am still trying to shed the weight of those bonds.

I would ask mark, would it be possible for you to post your original letter to Hoffman? I would be very interested to read it.


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Edited by Prajna (10/31/05 10:02 AM)

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: goobler]
    #4876046 -

goobler said:
RandalFlagg said:
Unagipie said:
I would imagine so. I like to think that the Shroomery offers the best of our generation, like Berkley in the 60's


I'd probably call him and try to bum money just to be an asshole.  :smirk:


I know I'd remind him I have a certian 'picture' of him


You just gave me a good idea on what to do for the next hour or so...I think I am going to go and listen to Pink Floyd's "Dark Side of the Moon".  :smirk:

If Paradigm got famous would you blackmail him by threatening to send that picture to the press?

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4876227 -

Interesting!

I like the "and most comforting" at the end :smirk:


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #4878599 -

why would I blackmail him?


I would however remiind him of his past

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Prajna]
    #4878682 -

Here you are Prajna - well, almost. All I saved is the rough draft which is practically illegible. I gushed, then introduced myself and described the acid I had taken (in expectation of "mere perceptual changes but received a full-blown mystical experience instead").

Perhaps this will help:
"Dr. Hofmann, may I have some further reflections from you on the interplay of the natural with the supernatural? That is, with the sacred psychedelic and the Holy Spirit...Some interpretations would read LSD as 'pharmakeutikos' - meaning both drugs and sorcery in the Bible - but does sorcery serve as a vehicle for the Holy Spirit?...The question is Dr. Hofmann, how can I better integrate this mysterious substance into my growing Christian worldview?"


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Unagipie]
    #4878722 -

If you read my rough draft post, you'll see that it is about the Holy Spirit, another Name for which is "The Comforter" in the NT, so Dr. Hofmann is quite Gnostic inasmuch as he somewhat cryptically identifies the experience of unity in the LSD inebriation with "the deepest and the most comforting truth, revealed and expressed in the gospel." Then, as now, I equate the word 'spirit' with consciousness, hence Holy Consciousness. This however lends many to interpret this to mean that the Holy Spirit belongs to the human mind (or worse, brain). This is not what I mean.

My Lady and I used to have long arguments with Shroomerite 'Enter,' whose literal interpretations of the Biblical sayings about the Holy Spirit 'rushing' like a wind, or in some way taking on aspects of movement, and hence form (like "tongues of flame"). We maintained that the Holy Spirit [Consciousness], if it indeed refers to G-d, then it is Omnipresent. Under certain conditions, we may become aware of this Omnipresence. Professor Huston Smith says that psychedelics may "occasion" a mystical experience, which is to say, the awareness of Divine Omnipresence. The only Divine attribute in question here is 'unity' (as in the liturgical "in the unity of the Holy Spirit").


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4881282 -

I have found that the main factor in the relation between psychedelics and mystical experience is that psychedelics (especially LSD) seem to seperate consciousness from body-mind, allowing immediate interface with the metaphysical infrastructure of reality. It is not entirely seperate, but the psychedelic experience seems to make the mind and body unrecognizable, below the spectrum of momentary experience and alltogether subtle during the gnostic experience. It is a mystery to me how exactly psychedelics work in the brain. In the process of altering consciousness, they alter the ego patterns that make up the social structure of every-day living. For anyone with a conscious relationship with God, this break in ego patterns is often more than enough for the floodgates of divine knowledge to be swung open. It is as if a vortex of the heart is opened for a brief moment, and all that is physical becomes meaningless and without substance in the face of experience.


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Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Unagipie]
    #4881323 -

Wow, What a great post! I haven't heard it put better anywhere that I can remember.

Very, very, insightful. :heart:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Unagipie]
    #4881456 -

Beautiful! As in...

"Have you ever been Experienced?...Not necessarily stoned, but Beautiful?"

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #4881647 -

Thanks mark, slightly difficult to read, but interesting... I too would love to here more about the gnostic viewpoint, as another poster said earlier in this post.

I read the website that was given here earlier and I agree that it seemed to be trying to pigeon hole Christ into a "new age" ideology.

I would ask you, because you seem well educated on the matter, what role do you think the psychedelic religious experience could play for someone like me, who has been taught to fear god more than anything.

Truth is I have been afraid to try a "heroic dose" in an attempt to have one of these experiences because I am afraid that my prior experiences and cultural conditioning will only make it a bad experience and only serve to confuse me more.

I almost feel like trying a high dose would be a betrayal to my god because it displays a "lack of blind faith" that is the hallmark of the Catholic doctrine. I have brought this issue to my priest in confidence and he STRONGLY is against any such exploration for religious purposes, as I expected him to be anyway.

Are these experiences subject to the mentality of the user at the time, or are they experienced apart from the ego of the user and just present themselves for what they are?

Would someone who comes from a "hellfire and damnation" background actually manifest a "hellish" experience just because they felt guilty at the onset of the experience?

If anyone can answer any of these questions I would love to hear it.


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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4881895 -

Paradigm said:
screenprinter said:
IF there is no one but us to judge us, then why care about anyone but yourself?


Because you are one with everyone.  This, to me, is the essence of Christ consciousness.  When you understand that you are your neighbor, you understand why you should love him as yourself.



true words indeed

sounds like you had a great experience.

good luck with the book

but try to be carefull about getting "the squirts" in the future.  :wink:


:sun: :heart: :sun:


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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Prajna]
    #4883048 -

Firstly, I would refer you to the fictional film 'Altered States.' If you haven't seen it, it is worth watching if only for the perverseness of apocalyptic elements that enter into William Hurt's mind during his original trip (the conclusions that he comes to are weak and the story ends with human love surplanting any cosmic consciousness. The story line is about devolution not evolution).

There are different schools of thought pertaining to "Pure Consciousness Experiences" or PCEs. Most schools insist that there are no 'blank slates' and all of our PCEs (mystical experiences) are going to be colored by impressions that we have from our background. I am a Jewish Christian, and on a Rosh Hashana years ago, I took acid and had something of a religious experience along Old Testament lines. I wasn't consciously expecting it and I was just staying in college for the long weekend to avoid my family, so I took a trip. Childhood elements plus the holiday (set and setting) contributed to the trip.

I recommend that you use some of the setting of your background and consider using the Sacred Substance as a Psychedelic Sacrament. This Mystery Religion practice which is reminiscent of the Mysteries of Eleusis would of course be rejected by a Catholic priest because such practices make the Church and it 'apostolic priesthood' superfluous. This monopoly over the Sacraments, without which one was ostensibly damned, is what kept people in line throughout the history of Catholicism. What used to be prescribed was fasting and prayer. Hey, a 40 day fast will drive a starving body into ketosis and the resultant mental states will be extremely altered. The Church had its flagellants as well.

My avatar is a Greek equilateral cross for a priest's vestments which is not only mushroomic in shape, but has grain in the arms - a source of ergot, and ergot forms tiny mushrooms. I believe the cross is an unconsciously made  representation of the psychedelic ergot Kykeon used at Eleusis.

http://people.etnoteam.it/maiocchi/fabbro.htm

One point that I am trying to make to you (see the above link) is that the liturgical forms of the Catholic Church has changed dramatically over time, though they would have people believe that it is invariant. Mystery Religion elements were apparently present at one time. The Native American Church is not Catholic but they recognize Peyote as the Body of Christ and have their own myth to account for its place as a Sacrament.

Salvation history is not complete - other denominations abound, particularly in the USA.  In order to cut through the encrustations of modern materialism, a "Moksha Medicine" [Huxley] - a Medicine of Liberation - the "Red Pill" [The Matrix] - seems to be necessary. I was Baptized a Catholic (no small thing for a Jew) and tried the trip for years. It doesn't work for me - not the doctrines, dogmas, interpretation of the myths, the Sacrament, the Vicarious Sacrifice theology, NOTHING. Did I need Catholic guilt on top of Jewish guilt? No then and No now. Your seeking is more pure than the politically based doctrine that your priest is about, but I'm not going to presume that you'll trust me over yourself, but Trust the Symbols of your religion - just don't trust the interpreters of those symbols. Trust yourself in that matter. See what meanings arise from your own depths and sort them out later, here or with others, but be FREE to explore the depths and heights of Consciousness. It is your priest who is in shackles (IMO) and misery loves company. Don't overstep your limits with the substance in question  :shocked:

Peace.


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4884459 -

Why doesn't everyone involve they're heart and spirit in deliberations of the mind?If you've taken GOD'S FLESH [our little blue friends]can't you hear what they're saying?See what they're showing?Maybe give it another try w/a wide open heart,don't go out and buy your knee pads yet.Why is our pure human goodness always being accredited to mass religion.Religion should be pointing the way to spiritual liberation not leave us in spiritual debt.You have a kind heart and your life's path has shown a light on the way to feel,custom made for you.Don't fall into some right wing tigerpit.If"GOD"had some spare time on saturday would he A.Cut the lawn ? B.Go fishing?Or C.Communicate with protozoa?I not sure, you tell me.If you see buddha on the highway, smoke him up,J.C. too for that matter.I hope my rant has been helpful.Oroboros :ashamed:

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: oroboros]
    #4884820 -

He never said he joined a religion and started going to church. :lol:

He pretty much said that an experience he had, had him inspired to follow the teachings of Jesus. Some people use the word for following his teachings "Christian", doesn't mean organised religion has to do anything with that.

My question is, when are people going stop asscoiating the man Jesus with organised religion? Jesus even said he didn't want people starting up religions in his name. Christianity is not an organised religion.

Catholics, Lutherans, Protestants, Baptists etc. have organised themselves around their own interpretive versions of the Bible, but one can follow the teachings of Jesus and not be a part of organised religion.

Some people like being in an organised community though "like the shroomery" and I'm not knocking people for making that choice either.

Just wondering why its assumed that if someone says they follow the teachings of Jesus and work to practice them that they are asscociated with an organised religion?


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: oroboros]
    #4884856 -

God is the light of my life and I haven't been to a religious congregation in sometime


--------------------

Don't fight it. Just let the illuminados take over your mind. You be at bliss soon.

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Silversoul]
    #4885894 -

Beautifully experience!!!
nicely written.
Thanks fro sharing!

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: Yatchak]
    #4887171 -

i wonder why christ talks to drug and alcohol users so often


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: kotik]
    #4887280 -

he talks to everyone, you just have to be receptive

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: goobler]
    #4895634 -

/*edit*** Flaming ***edit*\

MAIA

Edited by MAIA (11/05/05 01:01 PM)

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Re: So, I guess I'm Christian now... [Re: isander]
    #4895655 -

I'd reread the forum rules if I were you. 

Wiccan's sure been aching to give out a ban recently.  :evil:

I wonder if he'll get his chance?  :confused:

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