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Offlineusulpsychonaut
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19203396 - 11/29/13 01:53 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Bloody awesome post. I might memorise all of this for the deepening of my Christianity. Thank you so much. There really is nothing to explain.


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Deviate] * 1
    #19207990 - 11/30/13 09:59 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Deviate said:
You are aware that Eastern religion can scar people as well, are you not? Do do you not know about the abuses of Buddhism and Hinduism that have gone on in India and Asian countries? Do you not know about the corrupt gurus who have taken advantage of many, especially westerners in the last half century? Do you not know about the sincere students who may have even had genuine teachers but ended up driving themselves insane seeking enlightenment and not finding it?




Excuse me? Abuse of a solid idea and personal madness is NOT the same as the essence of the religion itself scarring people and coercing them into believing in its word. Yes people abuse the guru system, yes people might get lost in their way to the spiritual experience, but that pales, PALES in comparison to what sort of twisted cancers the christian faith has achieved.

In itself, this religion emotionally scars people into a fearful state of existence and then ploys to 'save them' from it as if it was full of love and understanding, but only for those who exclusively follow a set of rules (of use to fucking no one but the ones directing the whole charade). Not only are the rules outdated, but also absolutely incompatible with an evolving human being and compatible only with the compliant servant of a lord.

Quote:

Deviate said:Christianity is not "rotten", it's not good or bad, those are your labels. You should know from Buddhism that one must let go of their preconcieved notions about things, about this and that, good and bad. Christianity just is. It is one spiritual teaching that when it comes down to it, is actually pretty decent in my opinion when you consider how old it is, the original audience it was intended for and when consider some of the alternatives as has been pointed out. I mean , would you rather live in a Christian society or a society run by Scientologists? But anyway, Christianity is just as deep and beautiful a spiritual tradition as the eastern traditions in my opinion. If you find that it scarred you, it's only because you did not seek a deep enough understanding. You did not delve deeply enough into the meaning of the scriptures, because right practice of Christian principles leads to joy, peace and freedom of the spirit.




If it is not dead and rotting, how do you explain the diseases?

Diseases such as war in the name of faith, intolerance, abuse, discrimination, bigotry, existential coercion, slowing progress and many others?

And please don't give me the "these people running christianity and/or conventional christians don't get it." That would just just be a "no true Scotsman" or in this case- "no true christian" logical fallacy.

(for your convenience: No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them.)

You see the difference between you an me is that i take christianity for what it is.

You interpret it based on what you'd want it to be instead. But it is what it is. And it is dysfunctional. This is not preconceived. This is what i have made out of countless exposure. 

No need to to use the "it's not as bad as..." argument either. Scientology is merely scamming people for money whilst trying to achieve influence. Christianity has been at it longer and are far more better at it.

Whatever joy you think your version of christianity leads to- you can have it. I'd just like to be left out of christian spirituality, but for some reason I always have to watch these christians put their judgemental selves into everything. So that's why I retaliate with this list for today :shrug:

In of itself, in my own opinion, christianity is a broken religion that psychologically damages the populace and seeks to rule our spiritual lives without allowing us to have the actual experience.

Such as it stands now- it has to go. plain and simple :shrug:




Quote:

Deviate said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
It's unlikely any "christians" will respond to this thread. Where is Deviate or Fivepointer when you want them? :lol:




I'm right here but what do you want me to say? What makes you think this thread is even deserving of a response? I see nothing new, original or insightful here. This kind of list is generated by people who read the scriptures with no understanding, they have no ability to read between the lines and take everything at face value. The authors of such lists are more guilty of Biblical literalism than fundamentalists.

I will give one example of one of these supposed "contradictions" THis list says:

"    6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
        Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
        God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all   
        things
        Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8


so let's look at what Geneses 11:5 actually says: 5 The Lord came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men had built.

Notice that it does not say " God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all things". So this is not a genuine contradiction, it is merely inferred to be a contradiction based on the idea that if God is everywhere present he cannot "come down".




  I sort of agree with what you are saying about this particular one. But even if I gave you that one- it doesn't account for the other 205, more intense contradictions. You picked an easy one to tackle :wink: others are just flat out contradictions, not just contradictions in essence or theory.


Quote:

Deviate said:
But more often than not, these different descriptions of God reflect different levels of human understanding and not errors or inconsistencies on the part of Biblical authors.




nope. it is inconsistency. pure and simple. if you have directly opposing descriptions of god and/or rules in a holy scripture and you somehow interpret that as 'reflection of levels of human understanding' then all I can say is that any inconsistency should have that explanation.

Remember- my ball is red, but just to be clear- my ball is blue. Am I merely pondering upon the various 'reflections of human understanding'? No. I'm just being inconsistent or purposefully being vague and dabbling sophistry. Especially when I'm have no actual ball to present, merely the idea for it.

Reflection of human understanding? More like reflections of human inconsistency. Which would make sense given that the bible was written by different politically and socially motivated people throughout history and to put a cherry on top: assembled by different people altogether as well :lol:

Quote:

Deviate said:
If you begin reading the Bible with Geneses and you read through the Torah, you will get a certain picture of God. Then that view evolves and is elaborated on in the historical books and then is further advanced in the wisdom books and the prophetic books. Then in the new testament, we find a revolution in man's understanding of God which is initiated by Jesus Christ, the Word incarnate. St. Paul discusses this throughout his letters to the Romans, Corinthians etc explaining how when our actions are inspired by the Holy Spirit, we are not bound by the Jewish law, but we are truly free.




In the torah and genesis all I get from it is that god is a merciless, psychopathic ruler-like figure who quickly becomes very keen on the political stands of the world, favouring one part of humanity over another, inciting violence, rape, directing war and discrimination. Seems awfully convenient that the spiritual teachings of that time also told what was to be done politically. Sounds like kings and rulers within the socium practising this form of spirituality would benefit greatly... 

fast forward to the new testament - a cult within the jewish belief system arises claiming that the messiah foretold in the torah has arrived. the jews called bullshit. romans didn't want anything to do with it at first so they hunted them until suddenly... SUDDENLY. making the whole thing legal AND the religion of rome. now... suddenly there was a lot of reasons to go to war and a lot of people willing to go to war.... hmm.... sounds familiar? 

Quote:

Deviate said:
So the biggest reason that the Bible contradicts itself so often, is because it presents not a static picture but an evolving understanding of God and mankind's relationship to Him. Different attributes of God are also explained in different ways, from different points of view, in order that we should be given a broader perspective instead of having a very narrow picture of God.




sooo.... the bible contradicts itself so often because people's opinions on what god is and what his laws are changed.... within the scriptures themselves?

riiight :ohyou:

and no one could just like...leave the up-to-date version instead? just sounds like a bad attempt to shield Christianity's bullshit to me to be honest. no disrespect.

Quote:

Deviate said:You would have to be a moron to interpret the comics with the same mindset as the headlines, and yet that is exactly what you are doing with these lists of Biblical contradictions. The Bible must be read and understood as a whole.




Except the comic headline stays consistent to the story. The story doesn't start to deviate from the headline and put in random segments that contradict what the story was telling thus far. So, yeah... bad analogy :shrug:

Quote:

Deviate said:All this should be quite obvious. I mean how do you people not know these things? People are so uneducated when it comes to religion and then think that they are qualified to interpret it and declare it false. It is total arrogance and ignorance on their part. They do not understand Christianity. They do not understand spirituality. They do not understand paradox.




Oh I am educated in means of spirituality, don't worry about that. And what you are preaching as 'obvious' is merely your own construct of the christian faith so you can look past all the inconsistencies and justify its existence.

paradox is more than reoccurring inconsistencies and contradictions. paradox is much much subtler than this.   

Quote:

Deviate said:If you are incapable of understanding CHristianity, then I suggest studying Buddhism or Hinduism, which present the same spiritual truths as Christianity in a different way. If you cannot understand these religions either, I cannot help you because this is not something that can be worked out at the level of words and concepts.




Hinduism is just as full of shit as christianity is, albeit not of the same level. there is no equal to christianity in this aspect in my own humble opinion. Buddhism is on the right track, that is for sure.

not something that can be worked out with concepts and words? and yet most religions prize themselves for having an abundance of words and concepts. i agree though and that is why I believe true spirituality can only be achieved without organised religions. at least most of them. christianity up front.

 


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


Edited by MotherNaturesSon (11/30/13 10:14 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: MotherNaturesSon] * 1
    #19208045 - 11/30/13 10:19 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks for taking care of that for me. :lol:

But you'll never convince a true believer of anything no matter what you post.  However this is great shit for those you are just learning about the nonsense that culture feeds us a truth.  They can pick and choose more wisely.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19208150 - 11/30/13 10:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Thanks for taking care of that for me. :lol:

But you'll never convince a true believer of anything no matter what you post.  However this is great shit for those you are just learning about the nonsense that culture feeds us a truth.  They can pick and choose more wisely.




I am happy to have been part of helping people to avoid the current state of affairs of christianity, which is a void.


Well, he can believe in whatever he wants to :shrug:

Even if Deviate's faith is in the theme of christian spirituality and he interprets christian scripture to get his spiritual points across-

he would obviously not be a christian in the eyes of the christian community itself.

That would make him, in a way, what christians were to the jews at the time- interpreters of their long since established religion, who believed to understand it better than they could.

Not to mentioned that he is educated in spiritual knowledge of other teachings, which christians are explicitly told to reject. Deviate does not strike me as an actual christian and that's fine with me.

It's actual old-school christians I have a problem with. Not those who, for better or worse, seek to redeem christianity by pointing out their favourable interpretations on the matter. My two cents about these people are that they are merely wasting their potential on something that, in my opinion, is far beyond our help...

Anyways, it is these actual christians i'd like to see defend themselves against this list, but good luck finding any of those here I suppose, right? :lol:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19208580 - 11/30/13 01:12 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Indeed. This isn't the first time such lists have been posted here and mostly ignored by the otherwise vocal Christians.

Deviate has been hammered by some of the most logical truthful and well thought out responses to his posts that I've ever seen here imo, (better than anything I've posted as response) and he is still fully intact.  Nothing you say can sway his faith.  But as I said there are a lot of open minded folks just wondering about all this stuff and you are providing food for thought. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineAtrium
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19209051 - 11/30/13 03:34 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

^not only that but I doubt you'll find any "real" Christians by that definition. We're on a mushrooms and psychedelics site. Just by that alone, anybody on this website therefore is not a "real" christian. Anyways I'm at my convention now. Went to a few services and really wondered about this speaking in tongues thing. This holy spirit thing. Why they needed, to not go on, $45,000 in cash from their followers.

Interesting enough however, I spoke with a man yesterday who is "sent of God" and told me that I am meant to do great things. Strange that I've bee, told this explicitly by many individuals both church wise and secular such as school and even peers. I said, smart assedly, "so I'll be a pastor like my dadhuh" his response was "dondon't tie yourself down to one thing. Wtf, a person in the church just told me not to get involved??

Hey anyways, I'd let your list loose on some real Christians here but I always need to remember that I have my fathers, grandfathers, and even uncles image to keep up. Can you believe the fucks denied my scholarship and instead gave me scriptures on how to move on?


--------------------
The only thing about Chemistry I like is all the psychedelics that come from it.

The only reason I study Psychology is to have a legitimate excuse to enjoy Chemistry. :tongue2:


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InvisibleBill_Oreilly
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Atrium]
    #19210158 - 11/30/13 08:57 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

9 is false.


God is none of those things. God is...



interchangeable





/thread


--------------------
Something there is mysteriously formed,
Existing before Heaven and Earth,
Silent, still, standing alone, unchanging,
All-pervading, unfailing,
I do not know its name; I call it tao.
If forced to give it a name, I call it
Great (ta). Being great, it flows out;
Flowing out means far-reaching;
Being far-reaching, it is said to return.


It's just a shot away..


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Bill_Oreilly]
    #19211110 - 12/01/13 02:36 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

James 1:17 "Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows."

2 Kings 20:1-4-5
In those days Hezekiah became ill and was at the point of death. The prophet Isaiah son of Amoz went to him and said, This is what the LORD says: Put your house in order, because you are going to die; you will not recover. Before Isaiah had gone out of the middle court, the word of the LORD came to him, saying, return and say to Hezekiah the leader of My people, 'Thus says the LORD, the God of your father David, "I have heard your prayer, I have seen your tears; behold, I will heal you. On the third day you shall go up to the house of the LORD. I will add fifteen years to your life. And I will deliver you and this city from the hand of the king of Assyria. I will defend this city for my sake and for the sake of my servant David.

Not only did Hezekiah not die like was 'intended' by god, whom according to James 1:17 'doesn't change (his mind or himself) like shifting shadows', but he had a whooping fifteen years of life added to his lifespan :shrug: so god did kinda change like a shifting shadow right then. suddenly promising this, suddenly doing that instead.

It's not the best example in the list I agree, but that doesn't account for the 8 points mentioned beforehand and over 150 points thereafter :lol:

lets say that for the sake of interest, 2 of these points, one mentioned by O'Reilly and the other by Deviate, will be taken off.

so even though the validy if that could be debated, but now there is only 204 other, perhaps more solid points left to debunk :tongue:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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Invisiblecez
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19211217 - 12/01/13 04:40 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Wow MotherNaturesSon, you are kicking ass in this thread.:thumbup:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: cez]
    #19211281 - 12/01/13 05:42 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah I say we go through them all one by one. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19214766 - 12/01/13 09:08 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Excuse me? Abuse of a solid idea and personal madness is NOT the same as the essence of the religion itself scarring people and coercing them into believing in its word. Yes people abuse the guru system, yes people might get lost in their way to the spiritual experience, but that pales, PALES in comparison to what sort of twisted cancers the christian faith has achieved.

In itself, this religion emotionally scars people into a fearful state of existence and then ploys to 'save them' from it as if it was full of love and understanding, but only for those who exclusively follow a set of rules (of use to fucking no one but the ones directing the whole charade). Not only are the rules outdated, but also absolutely incompatible with an evolving human being and compatible only with the compliant servant of a lord.




This is simply not true in my eyes. I am going to post an except from a homily given by an Orthodox Priest on what the Orthodox faith is all about:

That luminous part of you that exists beyond personality – your soul, if you will – is as bright and shining as any that has ever been.  Bright as Shakespeare’s, bright as Gandhi’s, bright as Mother Teresa’s.  Clear away everything that keeps you separate from this secret luminous place.  Believe it exists, come to know it better, nurture it, share its fruits tirelessly.

In that little paragraph is the core understanding we Orthodox have about who and what you and I are.  If that perspective is off, then we will not “be in our right minds.”  The perspective is this: we are made in God’s image. The image of God is who and what we are.  Nothing can take that away. Nothing can change it. We are mirrors that reflect God’s glory. His glory shines in us all the time. The mirror is dirty, but it is there. It needs to be cleaned and polished.

At the core of every human being, writes St. Gregory Nazaianzus, is this amazing spark of divinity, created by God, put there by God which nothing, not even sin and death and the devil, can adversely affect.  Sin obscures our vision of this truth.  Fear distracts us from seeing it. The traumas and pains of life keep us from touching it.  All this negative stuff makes us believe wrongly that we are not the image of God, that we are separate from God, that he is far away from us and we are far away from him.  But this is not true.  It is impossible.  The Psalmist tells us that the will of God cannot return to him without accomplishing its purpose, so the image is indefectible. It is like a seed that cannot be destroyed and it is growing and will grow forever until it reaches full fruition over and over again because there is no end to growing.


This is what Christianity teaches and has always taught and it is a very empowerin and life affirming message. I dont see why this should scar anyone and if you happen to have been raised in a church that failed to get this message across then go ahead and criticize that church but dont act like the whole religion is rotten.

Quote:



If it is not dead and rotting, how do you explain the diseases?

Diseases such as war in the name of faith, intolerance, abuse, discrimination, bigotry, existential coercion, slowing progress and many others?

And please don't give me the "these people running christianity and/or conventional christians don't get it." That would just just be a "no true Scotsman" or in this case- "no true christian" logical fallacy.

(for your convenience: No True Scotsman is a logical fallacy by which an individual attempts to avoid being associated with an unpleasant act by asserting that no true member of the group they belong to would do such a thing. Instead of acknowledging that some members of a group have undesirable characteristics, the fallacy tries to redefine the group to exclude them.)

You see the difference between you an me is that i take christianity for what it is.

You interpret it based on what you'd want it to be instead. But it is what it is. And it is dysfunctional. This is not preconceived. This is what i have made out of countless exposure.

No need to to use the "it's not as bad as..." argument either. Scientology is merely scamming people for money whilst trying to achieve influence. Christianity has been at it longer and are far more better at it.

Whatever joy you think your version of christianity leads to- you can have it. I'd just like to be left out of christian spirituality, but for some reason I always have to watch these christians put their judgemental selves into everything. So that's why I retaliate with this list for today :shrug:

In of itself, in my own opinion, christianity is a broken religion that psychologically damages the populace and seeks to rule our spiritual lives without allowing us to have the actual experience.

Such as it stands now- it has to go. plain and simple :shrug:





Right because every Christian is fighting wars. Christianity is an extremely large religious movement. If you think it's not right for me to say no true Christian did X then neither can you say all Christians are like X. There are good Christians and bad Christians. There are Christians who start wars and Christians who promote peace. This is human nature. If medieval people didn't have Christianity to fight over, they would have fought over something else. CHristianity is just a religion, it can't be held responsible for all the ways it gets used, abused or interpreted. Look at the Mormons, they have one of the weirdest interpretations of the Christian scriptures I know of. Are you going to blame Jesus or the apostles or the early church fathers for Momornism? That doesn't make much sense to me.

Quote:


  I sort of agree with what you are saying about this particular one. But even if I gave you that one- it doesn't account for the other 205, more intense contradictions. You picked an easy one to tackle :wink: others are just flat out contradictions, not just contradictions in essence or theory.





I picked one at random. Its not my fault if you think it was an easy one, then you shouldn't have put it on your list. But I proved my point, these lists are not made by people educated in the interpretation of scipture, so why should I pay attention to what they think are contradictions? Furthermore as I explained (and you ignored) religious texts always contradict themselves because of the paradoxical nature of the spiritual path. Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves. I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it. Spiritual teachings of sufficient complexity will always end up contradicting themselves. It means nothing. Someone who has studied Buddhism should know that.

Quote:


nope. it is inconsistency. pure and simple. if you have directly opposing descriptions of god and/or rules in a holy scripture and you somehow interpret that as 'reflection of levels of human understanding' then all I can say is that any inconsistency should have that explanation.

Remember- my ball is red, but just to be clear- my ball is blue. Am I merely pondering upon the various 'reflections of human understanding'? No. I'm just being inconsistent or purposefully being vague and dabbling sophistry. Especially when I'm have no actual ball to present, merely the idea for it.

Reflection of human understanding? More like reflections of human inconsistency. Which would make sense given that the bible was written by different politically and socially motivated people throughout history and to put a cherry on top: assembled by different people altogether as well :lol:




You're simply wrong. As I explained, the early Biblical texts give a very primitive understanding of God, whereas the new testament presents a revolutionary new understanding of God. This is known as progressive revelation, not contradiction. But think whatever you want, you're entitled to your own opinion.

Quote:



In the torah and genesis all I get from it is that god is a merciless, psychopathic ruler-like figure who quickly becomes very keen on the political stands of the world, favouring one part of humanity over another, inciting violence, rape, directing war and discrimination. Seems awfully convenient that the spiritual teachings of that time also told what was to be done politically. Sounds like kings and rulers within the socium practising this form of spirituality would benefit greatly...




That may be all you get from it, but other more adept readers see divine truth interwoven throughout the stories of the Torah.

Quote:


fast forward to the new testament - a cult within the jewish belief system arises claiming that the messiah foretold in the torah has arrived. the jews called bullshit. romans didn't want anything to do with it at first so they hunted them until suddenly... SUDDENLY. making the whole thing legal AND the religion of rome. now... suddenly there was a lot of reasons to go to war and a lot of people willing to go to war.... hmm.... sounds familiar? 




Again, you're entitled to your opinion but why should the world bend to your opinion? Maybe pay a little more attention to the spiritual teachings given by Christ instead of simply the history.


Quote:


Hinduism is just as full of shit as christianity is, albeit not of the same level. there is no equal to christianity in this aspect in my own humble opinion. Buddhism is on the right track, that is for sure.

not something that can be worked out with concepts and words? and yet most religions prize themselves for having an abundance of words and concepts. i agree though and that is why I believe true spirituality can only be achieved without organised religions. at least most of them. christianity up front.





Again, your opinion. I disagree, I think spiritual organizations can play an important role in an individual's spiritual development. There is something that takes place when you worship in a community setting that is very difficult to achieve at home by yourself. You like Buddhism and Buddhists have temples and monasteries and ceremonies just like Christians. It's the same thing.

Quote:



I am happy to have been part of helping people to avoid the current state of affairs of christianity, which is a void.


Well, he can believe in whatever he wants to :shrug:

Even if Deviate's faith is in the theme of christian spirituality and he interprets christian scripture to get his spiritual points across-

he would obviously not be a christian in the eyes of the christian community itself.




Yes, I am a Christian in the eyes of the community itself. I am a catholic and no one has ever told me I couldn't be catholic because of how I interpret scripture. On the contrary, almost every way I interpret scripture already exists somewhere within the church, by some saint or theologian. That's what I love about Christianity, virtually ever view point imaginable on it's interpretation has put forward and debated about by the great saints and theologians of history. Any time there is anything controversy within Christianity, some group somewhere believes in the view that is now considered heretical. You can find literally everything under the umbrella of Christianity.

You see, what you are doing is stereotyping all "real" Christians as being degenerate ingrates who have the most primitive possible understanding of scripture and knwo nothing of the interior life and are completely intolerant of other religions. Now, there may be some CHristians out there who fit this description (mostly in protestant denominations imo) but to be honest, I have never actually met a Christian like this. I have to admit that before I converted, I myself believed in this idiotic stereotype and assumed that 99% of CHristians were like this and only 1% were guenuinly spiritual people. and I remember when I first came into the church I kept thinking how lucky I was to keep meeting Christians who fell into that one percent of genuinely spiritual people. Eventually I finally realized, it couldn't just be 1% or there is no way I would keeping meeting people like myself. The truth is there are plenty of very well educated Christians out there, who know about other religions and still choose to be CHristian. Christians are also a lot more tolerant of other religions than you think. For example, in my RCIA class one day we began class with the following quote from a Hindu saint: Scattered mind = madman, quiet mind = saint, still mind = God. I have to admit I was surprised to hear that said in a Catholic Church but I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. You are actually the one who is being intolerant here, I have met many Buddhists who respect the Christian tradition. Christianity is truly one of the great religions of the world. It has benefited my spiritual life and that of countless other people throughout history.

Quote:


That would make him, in a way, what christians were to the jews at the time- interpreters of their long since established religion, who believed to understand it better than they could.




I don't believe I understand it better, on the contrary my understanding of CHristianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True I may understand it better than some, but that is the case for everyone, there will always be people above you and people below you in any religion.

Quote:


Not to mentioned that he is educated in spiritual knowledge of other teachings, which christians are explicitly told to reject. Deviate does not strike me as an actual christian and that's fine with me.

It's actual old-school christians I have a problem with. Not those who, for better or worse, seek to redeem christianity by pointing out their favourable interpretations on the matter. My two cents about these people are that they are merely wasting their potential on something that, in my opinion, is far beyond our help...

Anyways, it is these actual christians i'd like to see defend themselves against this list, but good luck finding any of those here I suppose, right? :lol:




Why judge people though? I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person and I was always on guard against the stereotype you keep putting forward. But when I actually met Christians and realized they were not really like that stereotype, at least not the ones in my church, I stopped judging. Other people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and growth. Some people believe in a very childish understanding of Christianity. It is this way with other religions too. There are Buddhsits who are enlightened, Buddhists who are seriously seeking enlightenment, and Buddhists who just worship Buddha on Sunday (or whatever day Buddhist worship is). I do not judge these people. They are on their trip, I am on mine. Who am I to tell someone "No, that's not how you be a Buddhist. You need to become enlightened"


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19214792 - 12/01/13 09:16 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Indeed. This isn't the first time such lists have been posted here and mostly ignored by the otherwise vocal Christians.

Deviate has been hammered by some of the most logical truthful and well thought out responses to his posts that I've ever seen here imo, (better than anything I've posted as response) and he is still fully intact.  Nothing you say can sway his faith.  But as I said there are a lot of open minded folks just wondering about all this stuff and you are providing food for thought. :thumbup:





MotherNaturesSon and I don't really disagree that much, when I saw the thread title I thought he was an atheist but he is actually hip to the spiritual nature of reality. He just doesn't like Christianity it seems, which is where we differ, Christianity being my personal favorite religion.

But from my perspective, Christianity is simply one religion which seeks to express the ineffable spiritual truths that govern our existence. My only real opponents are those who identify themselves as atheists, skeptics and materialists. In other words, any converts that MotherNaturesSon wins over to his views, I regard as victories won for our side, because we are both on the side that asserts there is more to reality than what meets the physical senses. really once you convert someone to believe in that, they are only a hair's breath away from Christianity anyway. At their core, CHristianity, Buddhism and Hinduiusm are the exact same thing.


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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Deviate]
    #19216000 - 12/02/13 05:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

"So this means the only purpose that all religions and spiritual paths truly serve is to gradually drive you insane by the fact that they do not work.-Deviate

:wink:

and for the record I'm not an atheist.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (12/02/13 06:06 AM)


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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19216252 - 12/02/13 07:59 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

What do you believe then?


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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Deviate]
    #19216358 - 12/02/13 08:46 AM (10 years, 1 month ago)

I believe it's all a big unknown.  I believe that I and everyone else is not equipped with the capacity to know.  I believe therefore that anything I or anyone else puts forth as truth will have psychologically ulterior motives.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Deviate]
    #19217572 - 12/02/13 02:37 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

:horrifying:



Quote:

Deviate said:
MotherNaturesSon and I don't really disagree that much, when I saw the thread title I thought he was an atheist but he is actually hip to the spiritual nature of reality. He just doesn't like Christianity it seems, which is where we differ, Christianity being my personal favorite religion.

But from my perspective, Christianity is simply one religion which seeks to express the ineffable spiritual truths that govern our existence. My only real opponents are those who identify themselves as atheists, skeptics and materialists. In other words, any converts that MotherNaturesSon wins over to his views, I regard as victories won for our side, because we are both on the side that asserts there is more to reality than what meets the physical senses. really once you convert someone to believe in that, they are only a hair's breath away from Christianity anyway. At their core, CHristianity, Buddhism and Hinduiusm are the exact same thing.




We don't disagree about the necessity for a spiritual life in one form or another, however, we do disagree on wether organised religion, of which christianity in particular, is a good thing.

I think you misunderstand many people around you. Words such as atheist (with the connotation christians often use the word with), materialist and skeptics are merely words you have assigned to people whom you believe lack a spiritual outlook on life. However I believe that these people often do not lack a spiritual outlook on life. They merely choose to go beyond concepts of gods, worship and other traditional forms of spiritual practise.

Their minds have standards for explaining how their belief works and they try not to speculate beyond what they know or can measure when explaining how things particularly work. This doesn't mean that they have no joy for life and can't appreciate the subtle messages of the universe in their own way. This doesn't have to mean that they think their lives are purposeless, that life isn't precious. Or that a state of well being or/and existential bliss cannot exist somewhere out there in the mind of self-realised and enlightened person.

Overly religious folk are missing the point. They think that without the concept of god or prayer or worship or building huge ass buildings in the name of what they believe in so they can gather a bunch of people who are supposed to believe in the exact same way and beat their chests reminding everyone that they are doing the good work here- all that is left is an empty void of materialism or existential apathy, amorality and suffering. Which is actually what IS left without a spiritual life, but it's not what is left without particular forms of spiritual practise- in other words; organised religion.

People should just be left to their own form or spirituality. It's okay to share what you believe in with someone else and beliefs do become similar based on what ideas float and prevail out there, but ultimately I see no reason for anyone to have to convert to the exact same belief system. Why? BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. 

Proof?

Even within organised religions such as christianity or buddhism or whatever; they are all divided. Christianity has protestants, orthodox, catholics etc. Buddhists have a whole array of different schools who interpret the set teachings differently. This applies virtually to any religion out there. And everyone thinks THEY are right. That THEY got it better than the others, the others are just confused and deviated from the truthful path. Now, within these groups you'll find even MORE dividing!

Wether it's smaller groups within the said group or even individuals such as yourself- you'll always find people who think they 'get it' and the ones they admire as ones who 'get it even better' than themselves or who they ridicule as those who 'don't get it'.

Don't you see how absurd it is then, to pretend that there is an actual unifying form of spirituality out there? The only thing that seems to be universal about spirituality is that we all wish to achieve as state of happiness and well being. And since everyone has their own challenges, problems and traumas in life- they will need a personally tailored remedy for these things to reach said state of well-being.

This is what I believe spirituality is supposed to be about- a personal journey with many adventurers and strangers on the road, with dangers, thrills, chills, revelations, obstacles, redemptions, mistakes, depressions, suffering, joy, anger, forgiveness, love and ultimately a conclusion that will take you on. Why is anyone supposed to conform to something that doesn't synch with them or something that is flat out irrelevant not to them, but to an entire generation?

Now here's a funny thing! It would be all right and dandy if those who are more into the old-school forms of spiritual practise (because it synchs with their person) would accept other, more abstract or methodically oriented spiritual practises as equally relevant and contributing to the life of mankind. And some, such as buddhism, are so flexible (as they try to talk about what they know and less about what they don't; such as wether the earth spins around the sun or not) and confident in their beliefs (be they none the less divided as they are) that they do not call out for these people to be burned at the stake... or say, threaten them with eternal suffering and damnation, perhaps?

On the contrary, they attempt to see how this belief that is different from their own could apply to them, they look for the things that bring them together whilst ultimately respecting and celebrating the differences, hoping that both of them will ultimately reach their goal of happiness in the long run and try to learn from one another to speed of the said process. This is why I respect buddhism and other, more mature religions such as Taoism, than I do christianity, judaism, islam- hinduism EVEN!

Religions such as Christianity were obviously established (note: not created) for political purposes and it has divided the world ever since. Not only is it a coercive religion with a cruel ruler-like god figure that threatens people with eternal damnation unless they believe in some guy that apparently died for me, who is a filthy sin ridden entity since before i was born, but it seeks to vilify all other forms of spirituality.

Once someone actually called them on their bullshit, since they thought they could explain everything, it was murder, burning, blackmailing, torture and fear-mongering. What kind of a fucked up spiritual practise is that? And to this day, christianity in overall remains adamant in its judgemental self-absorbed manipulative opinion. The fact that a few people in this religion try to defend or redeem it is admirable, but so far I see no results and no change in the core attitude or teachings of this twisted cult or guilt. 



That being said.



Quote:

Deviate said:
This is simply not true in my eyes. I am going to post an except from a homily given by an Orthodox Priest on what the Orthodox faith is all about:

That luminous part of you that exists beyond personality – your soul, if you will – is as bright and shining as any that has ever been.  Bright as Shakespeare’s, bright as Gandhi’s, bright as Mother Teresa’s.  Clear away everything that keeps you separate from this secret luminous place.  Believe it exists, come to know it better, nurture it, share its fruits tirelessly.

In that little paragraph is the core understanding we Orthodox have about who and what you and I are.  If that perspective is off, then we will not “be in our right minds.”  The perspective is this: we are made in God’s image. The image of God is who and what we are.  Nothing can take that away. Nothing can change it. We are mirrors that reflect God’s glory. His glory shines in us all the time. The mirror is dirty, but it is there. It needs to be cleaned and polished.

At the core of every human being, writes St. Gregory Nazaianzus, is this amazing spark of divinity, created by God, put there by God which nothing, not even sin and death and the devil, can adversely affect.  Sin obscures our vision of this truth.  Fear distracts us from seeing it. The traumas and pains of life keep us from touching it.  All this negative stuff makes us believe wrongly that we are not the image of God, that we are separate from God, that he is far away from us and we are far away from him.  But this is not true.  It is impossible.  The Psalmist tells us that the will of God cannot return to him without accomplishing its purpose, so the image is indefectible. It is like a seed that cannot be destroyed and it is growing and will grow forever until it reaches full fruition over and over again because there is no end to growing.


This is what Christianity teaches and has always taught and it is a very empowerin and life affirming message. I dont see why this should scar anyone and if you happen to have been raised in a church that failed to get this message across then go ahead and criticize that church but dont act like the whole religion is rotten.





First of all. Next time you quote someone to make a point- make sure to give me proof of the citation, at the very least a name so we don't get caught in the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Saying someone of importance said something surely does give the argument a little more sway, especially if the person is respectable. Heck, sometimes all you need is someone else than yourself to say something that would prove your point, but as it often happens people tend to lie about what they heard someone say and just say what they want to say under the guise of someone else's authority or numbers.

Second; this is not what Christianity has been teaching. This is what one priest within 1 group of various christian opinion'ates has stated about the soul, the divine within all of us. And though I find the text heart-warming; I find it funny that once someone settles to play by the rules and tries to make a point using the core of your faith- the holy scriptures, you suddenly 360 and point to what some priest said somewhere, as if that would suddenly undo what is being presented as official teachings and what consequences they have brought upon us throughout history.

A heartwarming speech on one priest's spiritual epiphanies hardly accounts for the countless ounces of bullshit in the religion itself. One doesn't have to be orthodox or a christian to come up with what he said. These are natural thoughts occurring to sensitive and spiritual people. However, that I am sinful since before I was born is not something a spiritually sound person would come up with. Much rather, a certain someone who would seek to 'help' me with this force-fed problem. How convenient it would then be, if the remedy for this affliction would coincidentally be to obey a certain authority...oh wait! That's just how christianity is, isn't it?

I was raised in an environment that tried to get across what was written in the scriptures without trying to lube it up my ass, if you'll excuse my french. Pure scripture, for what it was, no bullshit interpreting. Obey god. God is all powerful. He sees all and knows all. He rules all. Here are the rules for you to follow. He loves you for obeying them and he hates his enemies who don't. Don't be his enemy. Or you will suffer forever after you die, especially if you don't believe in his son who was here on earth a while back. Homosexuals are evil. Drugs are evil. Magic is evil. God has killed and murdered these kind of people in the past with fire raining from the skies and floods coming from the earth (killing all the animals for no fucking reason, since they are not as important).

Naturally, I was highly disturbed by the whole thing to say the least... 



Quote:

Deviate said:
Right because every Christian is fighting wars. Christianity is an extremely large religious movement. If you think it's not right for me to say no true Christian did X then neither can you say all Christians are like X. There are good Christians and bad Christians. There are Christians who start wars and Christians who promote peace. This is human nature. If medieval people didn't have Christianity to fight over, they would have fought over something else. CHristianity is just a religion, it can't be held responsible for all the ways it gets used, abused or interpreted. Look at the Mormons, they have one of the weirdest interpretations of the Christian scriptures I know of. Are you going to blame Jesus or the apostles or the early church fathers for Momornism? That doesn't make much sense to me.





Putting aside all the other dark aspects I put forth such as burning people for no fucking reason and killing scientists, I said "religious wars" not "war" in general. And yes, religious wars have been a HUGE thing in christianity and many other religions in the past and still would be, had the age of rationalism not alleviated them of their influence. Concerning christianity, I need only point to the most famous chain of wars known as the crusades.

A perfect example of political reasons, 'spiritual' motivation. Islam in turn had the Jihad. How come? That's right! Because the crusades were mostly targeted at them. Now where I come from, people were pagans, just minding their own business until the order Teutonic comes along as part of the crusade and starts killing, pillaging and burning in the name of the lord. They claimed that they were dealing with heathens, but even after these heathens converted to catholicism the order kept attacking. It would appear that they were interested in lands and titles, nobody gave a shit the heathens accepted their damned religion. 

But I digress. The very fact that christianity HAS been part of such a thing and mature religions such as buddhism or taoism have not gives us something to think about. How would you imagine these said religions would have gone about declaring holy wars with the philosophy found in their particular scriptures, huh? Like this? (it's only 50 seconds, watch it for good laughs :lol: )





Look, get it through your head- I'm not talking about all 'christians' as people. I am assessing what has been achieved by cultures that were submerged into a certain religion both spiritually and culturally. I bet there have been buddhist assholes and quarrels throughout history as well, but in overall their teachings gave birth to a culture that has been and is still one of spiritual mindfulness and sublimity. Peace and compassion. Even today, facing the difficulty of resisting china- there are no bombs or buddhist kung-fu crusades.

Christianity wants to boast of the same, but what christians have achieved (as a whole) within western culture and beyond is the technique of fetishising political agendas, flat out evil acts out of ignorance and fear, rejection of progress due to intense fear of loosing authority and a small existential comfort, albeit only for those who conform. That is the overall achievement chart of christianity.

No one is blaming the apostles or jesus for what other people made of their words. I am blaming people for supporting an institution that has taken said ideas and resulted them in the horrible things I mentioned. Then pleading ignorance and selectism, as if what was done to the world around them wasn't the point, the point was that they are good people and love everybody. What the fuck? 

The very fact that so many different twisted branches of this form of spirituality can emerge only goes to show how inconsistent and easily manipulated its word is. How easy it is to justify bullshit with it. Even different schools of buddhism just have a different view on what meditational practises are most efficient, what path is the most effective. In hinduism its more about semantics; which god married which god and which god is more worthy of rituals than the other. But they all more or less agree on the core aspects and consider each other different schools than separate spiritual teachings. In christianity- it's just a complete different framework every time some new branch forms and there's scandal involved, words like cult or blasphemy, excommunication and whatnot.

Perhaps the most hilarious thing is: christianity started out as a cult. A cult of Judaism. So christianity in itself is an interpretation. That should show you the dangers of making interpretations and trying to establish them as cannon, above others. 


Quote:

Deviate said:
I picked one at random. Its not my fault if you think it was an easy one, then you shouldn't have put it on your list. But I proved my point, these lists are not made by people educated in the interpretation of scipture, so why should I pay attention to what they think are contradictions? Furthermore as I explained (and you ignored) religious texts always contradict themselves because of the paradoxical nature of the spiritual path. Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves. I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it. Spiritual teachings of sufficient complexity will always end up contradicting themselves. It means nothing. Someone who has studied Buddhism should know that.





Riiight... you still have another 204 points to debunk if you want to get anywhere NEAR proving your point. You see, I don't interpret texts to make ends meet one way or the other. I take the texts for what they are. In other words I read them as an orthodox (who are hardcore about not interpreting anything) and disagreeing with it wholeheartedly. In my humble opinion most of christian scripture is inconsistent, irrelevant moral stories with a lot of appealing to conform to a ruler-like figure. In essence, these scriptures teach you how to obey. And then they go "oh yeah, by the way, we love you and we are very merciful and full of light, please remember that while you kneel and cry for being a filthy sinner!".

I ignored it because you clearly don't see the difference between inconsistency and paradoxes. "I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it." For that argument even to begin to have some sort of relevance you should cite the entire paragraph from the book itself were it says so and then find actual scripture that does, as you put it, contradict itself. Adding the book name and author would help.

Either way, appealing to "all my friends do it too" doesn't make inconsistencies okay. Contradictions are sometimes not contradictions when you are more aware of the contexts and a subtle linguistic stunt takes place. That's when a contradiction becomes a paradox. On the other hand, when a contradiction is merely confusing with seemingly no obvious connection to meaning, that's when it is an aspect of inconsistency.

And please, if you're gonna go crazy and say that every single point in the list is a paradox, then you're gonna have an easy time debunking all 204 points and explaining them to us, right? Because right now, all I see is 204 contradictions that are just mere inconsistencies. I will however stand corrected honourably if you manage to prove it otherwise. After all, that is why I made this topic. But don't expect me not to challenge you.   


Quote:

Deviate said:
You're simply wrong. As I explained, the early Biblical texts give a very primitive understanding of God, whereas the new testament presents a revolutionary new understanding of God. This is known as progressive revelation, not contradiction. But think whatever you want, you're entitled to your own opinion.





So, there's that christian "you are wrong!" Thought you were above that... :shrug: If these texts were such primitive understandings of god then modern scholars should simply have excluded them so that ambitious primitive-minded people wouldn't use them to justify their horrendous acts.

The new testament is an extension of Judaism. Those who stood by it thought that the things predicted in Judaism are coming to pass and should be noted. It is, in essence, an interpretation, given that bits and pieces of Judaic scriptures are also within christianity, but only those that support their interpretation.

But the fact that you're calling this interpretation a revolutionary new understanding of god only shows what I had said earlier- just another branch of organised religion trying to compete with the old one by stating that it is better, newer and closer to god than the older one is. This is known as dividing, quarrel and pride. If everyone would just be immersed into their own spirituality, we wouldn't have these problems...     


Quote:

Deviate said:
That may be all you get from it, but other more adept readers see divine truth interwoven throughout the stories of the Torah. Again, you're entitled to your opinion but why should the world bend to your opinion? Maybe pay a little more attention to the spiritual teachings given by Christ instead of simply the history.





Ahhh... "Adept readers"? Once again, dividing between followers within the group itself. Looks like another sneaky "No true scotsman". A TRUE, adept reader will understand it right, whilst where one who isn't- won't understand and therefore make a fool of himself. Bullshit. Divine truth my ass. Murder. War. Rape. Pillaging. Human and animal sacrifice. Senseless slaughter. Punishment for not obeying. These are the actual contents of the early books. If you wanna do the whole "it's a metaphor" act, that's fine by me. Just don't expect everyone to try and feed themselves something as horrible as that and smile. 

Because christianity and judaism are so powerfully interwoven with history and politics that you would be a fool to discredit the importance of these two factors forming the religion itself. Example: Babylon is described as an evil city in Judaism. Why? Because the jewish tribes were at war with it at the time. Their faith literally vilified a nation which made the jews more prone to lend themselves to the war itself. Now babylon was no evil city at all. It was just another city.

How does this work into your adept metaphorical reading skills? What hidden divine message to you see between the lines here? All I see is clever political manipulation and it was this beautiful technique that was passed down to the new testament as well because the romans saw the genius behind it. That's why they made it the main religion so suddenly after 300 years of persecution. Why? Because the god before that (the emperor cult etc.) was waining.   

The spiritual teachings in christianity are minimal, constrictive, non-flexible and grossly associated with the political climates of the time in order to manipulate and direct the masses of people with threats of damnation and promises of eternal life. This is OBVIOUS. You need not bend to my opinion, simply bend to your religion's own history and you will see that my opinion is one that is based on what christianity has done both culturally AND historically. As V from V for Vendetta said "I did not come for you for what you sought to do, I come for you for what you have done." I am not merely stating my opinion, I am stating my observations that form my core opinion on this religion. Simple as that.


Quote:

Deviate said:
Again, your opinion. I disagree, I think spiritual organizations can play an important role in an individual's spiritual development. There is something that takes place when you worship in a community setting that is very difficult to achieve at home by yourself. You like Buddhism and Buddhists have temples and monasteries and ceremonies just like Christians. It's the same thing.




Already commented on organised religion in the beginning. If you find spiritual states and fruits difficult to reach by yourself and you are in constant need of affirmation from your surroundings- then that just proves what I said about christianity. It is a herd manipulation technique more than it is about personal sublimity, though I can understand enjoying being between people who are spiritual. But even more so, I think it's enjoyable to be between people who are their own person and you are yours.

Just for the record, I didn't say I particularly like buddhism. I just respect it and I think many religions have much to learn from it, that's why it often shows up in my examples and so on and so forth. And yet Buddhism has its own set of bullshit, but right now we are talking about christianity, which has an abundance of it.   



Quote:

Deviate said:
Yes, I am a Christian in the eyes of the community itself. I am a catholic and no one has ever told me I couldn't be catholic because of how I interpret scripture. On the contrary, almost every way I interpret scripture already exists somewhere within the church, by some saint or theologian. That's what I love about Christianity, virtually ever view point imaginable on it's interpretation has put forward and debated about by the great saints and theologians of history. Any time there is anything controversy within Christianity, some group somewhere believes in the view that is now considered heretical. You can find literally everything under the umbrella of Christianity.

You see, what you are doing is stereotyping all "real" Christians as being degenerate ingrates who have the most primitive possible understanding of scripture and knwo nothing of the interior life and are completely intolerant of other religions. Now, there may be some CHristians out there who fit this description (mostly in protestant denominations imo) but to be honest, I have never actually met a Christian like this. I have to admit that before I converted, I myself believed in this idiotic stereotype and assumed that 99% of CHristians were like this and only 1% were guenuinly spiritual people. and I remember when I first came into the church I kept thinking how lucky I was to keep meeting Christians who fell into that one percent of genuinely spiritual people. Eventually I finally realized, it couldn't just be 1% or there is no way I would keeping meeting people like myself. The truth is there are plenty of very well educated Christians out there, who know about other religions and still choose to be CHristian. Christians are also a lot more tolerant of other religions than you think. For example, in my RCIA class one day we began class with the following quote from a Hindu saint: Scattered mind = madman, quiet mind = saint, still mind = God. I have to admit I was surprised to hear that said in a Catholic Church but I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. You are actually the one who is being intolerant here, I have met many Buddhists who respect the Christian tradition. Christianity is truly one of the great religions of the world. It has benefited my spiritual life and that of countless other people throughout history.





Obviously you have not disclosed much about yourself to your religions authorities or other people within your religion. You've said just enough for them to agree with you wholeheartedly, thus you earn your affirmation, but you withheld just enough as well, only disclosing more for those who are just as Deviated (see what I did there?) about christianity as you are. I don't see why you are celebrating the divide of opinion in your own religion (not diversity, divide). I wonder how your spiritual elders would look at your drug habits?

Please don't conjure up another "No true scotsman"... I see how you're trying to add the fact that you believe 'your kind' are the majority rather than those 'other, baaaad' christians. After all, then it wouldn't be a "No true scotsman", but instead just you apologising for the other, less intelligent minority of your religion. Well, I am positive you're just trying to glaze it over. Those "baaaad christians"  are the absolute majority and the fact that proves this is that christianity as a whole shows no signs of maturing.

If most people in christianity are as you describe them, then why is it that the 'uneducated' christians run the show and christianity untill this day comes off to many as something unpleasant, judgemental and pretentious? In fact, it is you who appears to me as the great minority in christianity, Deviate. Its apologist, which they wouldn't even appreciate or allow to reform anything.

Also, just because christians bring up hindu teachings doesn't make them more open to them or mean that they show signs of progressiveness. They selectively pick out little pieces of the hindu teachings so that they can explain it in a christian view, thus enforcing the view that their religion is just as wise and thoughtful as the eastern religions of ancient times. And since people find these religions more and more compelling to their spiritual nature, thus christianity tries to 'analogize' themselves to them in order to gain psychological favour and that's why they brought it up, in case you wondered.

But try making them talk about the broader aspects of the hindu faith and they'll be compelled to disagree completely, calling out heresy. That they are wrong and misunderstand the universe completely. Or, as you would do, try to find any metaphor to keep the show of tolerance running instead of confronting actual differences.       


Quote:

Deviate said:
I don't believe I understand it better, on the contrary my understanding of CHristianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True I may understand it better than some, but that is the case for everyone, there will always be people above you and people below you in any religion




I'm sorry, but that humbleness appeared sort of fake and just for the sake of argument. So you are part of the elite and there are people in the elite that understand the scriptures better than you? It sure was a nice try to smooth it, but you lost it the moment you said "True, i might understand it better than some" That sentence reveals everything to me. It is all this divide within these kind of organised religions that astound me and keeps the circle of strife going. 


Quote:

Deviate said:
Why judge people though? I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person and I was always on guard against the stereotype you keep putting forward. But when I actually met Christians and realized they were not really like that stereotype, at least not the ones in my church, I stopped judging. Other people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and growth. Some people believe in a very childish understanding of Christianity. It is this way with other religions too. There are Buddhsits who are enlightened, Buddhists who are seriously seeking enlightenment, and Buddhists who just worship Buddha on Sunday (or whatever day Buddhist worship is). I do not judge these people. They are on their trip, I am on mine. Who am I to tell someone "No, that's not how you be a Buddhist. You need to become enlightened"





You just said you felt that you have a deeper understand of Christianity than the average person and now you deny it? Or was that just one of the fabled paradoxes you were talking about earlier? :wink:



WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTENT IS HUMOUR


Quote:

Deviate said:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3




/HUMOUR




Look, I'm not judging people or trying to be an asshole. Not really. I just have a problem with their behaviour and I'm merely calling them out to defend it, to help me understand wether they are themselves fully aware of what they are enforcing.

Don't try to make me out to be following some sort of stereotype of christian people. I have met many christians and very few of them were as you describe them and the ones that were believed to achieve this through a different interpretation of the scriptures altogether, much like yourself.

I asked them what they thought about how christianity came across as a whole because of their actions and they'd just shrug and go something down the lines of "they're not true christians". Sounds familiar?

It took everything in me not to tell them "No. You're just not a christian. You're something beyond that and you should stop associating yourself with them until you see that they want to promote change and growth." But now I'm not gonna pass up on saying exactly that to you, Deviate.

No, you see, if you truly believed in people being on their own trip, then you'd stop perpetuating organised religion. Especially one that is such as christianity is. Now i'm not saying people can't take elements from christianity or buddhism and apply it to themselves on their own spiritual journey. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be calling themselves christian or buddhist when they only follow part their teaching or interpret/slightly change it to suit their own understanding of life.

By this logic- why have organised religion the way it is today at all? Which brings us back to what I wrote in the beginning.

There's a perfect circle for you.


:likeaboss:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Deviate]
    #19217716 - 12/02/13 03:10 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)


Deviate said:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3


That reads exactly like the Bible. :lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineMotherNaturesSon
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Registered: 05/21/09
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19221833 - 12/03/13 12:07 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Deviate said:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3


That reads exactly like the Bible. :lol:




:hahyeahwoo:



I still respect sire Deviate tho :thumbup:


--------------------
:watchingyou: :raptorJesus: :teabird: :watchingyou:

Excerpts of inner dialogue III-V-VIII:

"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."


"The goal is to become more child-like, and less child-ish."


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OfflineDeviate
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Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 4,497
Last seen: 8 years, 4 months
Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: Icelander]
    #19222308 - 12/03/13 01:42 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:

Deviate said:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3


That reads exactly like the Bible. :lol:




There is no contradiction here. I said I MAY understand Christianity better than some people. Where is the contradiction?


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: 206 Christian Contradictions Compiled [Linked between PSP and SM] [Re: MotherNaturesSon]
    #19222359 - 12/03/13 01:55 PM (10 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

MotherNaturesSon said:
:horrifying:



Quote:

Deviate said:
MotherNaturesSon and I don't really disagree that much, when I saw the thread title I thought he was an atheist but he is actually hip to the spiritual nature of reality. He just doesn't like Christianity it seems, which is where we differ, Christianity being my personal favorite religion.

But from my perspective, Christianity is simply one religion which seeks to express the ineffable spiritual truths that govern our existence. My only real opponents are those who identify themselves as atheists, skeptics and materialists. In other words, any converts that MotherNaturesSon wins over to his views, I regard as victories won for our side, because we are both on the side that asserts there is more to reality than what meets the physical senses. really once you convert someone to believe in that, they are only a hair's breath away from Christianity anyway. At their core, CHristianity, Buddhism and Hinduiusm are the exact same thing.




We don't disagree about the necessity for a spiritual life in one form or another, however, we do disagree on wether organised religion, of which christianity in particular, is a good thing.

I think you misunderstand many people around you. Words such as atheist (with the connotation christians often use the word with), materialist and skeptics are merely words you have assigned to people whom you believe lack a spiritual outlook on life. However I believe that these people often do not lack a spiritual outlook on life. They merely choose to go beyond concepts of gods, worship and other traditional forms of spiritual practise.

Their minds have standards for explaining how their belief works and they try not to speculate beyond what they know or can measure when explaining how things particularly work. This doesn't mean that they have no joy for life and can't appreciate the subtle messages of the universe in their own way. This doesn't have to mean that they think their lives are purposeless, that life isn't precious. Or that a state of well being or/and existential bliss cannot exist somewhere out there in the mind of self-realised and enlightened person.

Overly religious folk are missing the point. They think that without the concept of god or prayer or worship or building huge ass buildings in the name of what they believe in so they can gather a bunch of people who are supposed to believe in the exact same way and beat their chests reminding everyone that they are doing the good work here- all that is left is an empty void of materialism or existential apathy, amorality and suffering. Which is actually what IS left without a spiritual life, but it's not what is left without particular forms of spiritual practise- in other words; organised religion.

People should just be left to their own form or spirituality. It's okay to share what you believe in with someone else and beliefs do become similar based on what ideas float and prevail out there, but ultimately I see no reason for anyone to have to convert to the exact same belief system. Why? BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE. 

Proof?

Even within organised religions such as christianity or buddhism or whatever; they are all divided. Christianity has protestants, orthodox, catholics etc. Buddhists have a whole array of different schools who interpret the set teachings differently. This applies virtually to any religion out there. And everyone thinks THEY are right. That THEY got it better than the others, the others are just confused and deviated from the truthful path. Now, within these groups you'll find even MORE dividing!

Wether it's smaller groups within the said group or even individuals such as yourself- you'll always find people who think they 'get it' and the ones they admire as ones who 'get it even better' than themselves or who they ridicule as those who 'don't get it'.

Don't you see how absurd it is then, to pretend that there is an actual unifying form of spirituality out there? The only thing that seems to be universal about spirituality is that we all wish to achieve as state of happiness and well being. And since everyone has their own challenges, problems and traumas in life- they will need a personally tailored remedy for these things to reach said state of well-being.

This is what I believe spirituality is supposed to be about- a personal journey with many adventurers and strangers on the road, with dangers, thrills, chills, revelations, obstacles, redemptions, mistakes, depressions, suffering, joy, anger, forgiveness, love and ultimately a conclusion that will take you on. Why is anyone supposed to conform to something that doesn't synch with them or something that is flat out irrelevant not to them, but to an entire generation?

Now here's a funny thing! It would be all right and dandy if those who are more into the old-school forms of spiritual practise (because it synchs with their person) would accept other, more abstract or methodically oriented spiritual practises as equally relevant and contributing to the life of mankind. And some, such as buddhism, are so flexible (as they try to talk about what they know and less about what they don't; such as wether the earth spins around the sun or not) and confident in their beliefs (be they none the less divided as they are) that they do not call out for these people to be burned at the stake... or say, threaten them with eternal suffering and damnation, perhaps?

On the contrary, they attempt to see how this belief that is different from their own could apply to them, they look for the things that bring them together whilst ultimately respecting and celebrating the differences, hoping that both of them will ultimately reach their goal of happiness in the long run and try to learn from one another to speed of the said process. This is why I respect buddhism and other, more mature religions such as Taoism, than I do christianity, judaism, islam- hinduism EVEN!

Religions such as Christianity were obviously established (note: not created) for political purposes and it has divided the world ever since. Not only is it a coercive religion with a cruel ruler-like god figure that threatens people with eternal damnation unless they believe in some guy that apparently died for me, who is a filthy sin ridden entity since before i was born, but it seeks to vilify all other forms of spirituality.

Once someone actually called them on their bullshit, since they thought they could explain everything, it was murder, burning, blackmailing, torture and fear-mongering. What kind of a fucked up spiritual practise is that? And to this day, christianity in overall remains adamant in its judgemental self-absorbed manipulative opinion. The fact that a few people in this religion try to defend or redeem it is admirable, but so far I see no results and no change in the core attitude or teachings of this twisted cult or guilt. 



That being said.



Quote:

Deviate said:
This is simply not true in my eyes. I am going to post an except from a homily given by an Orthodox Priest on what the Orthodox faith is all about:

That luminous part of you that exists beyond personality – your soul, if you will – is as bright and shining as any that has ever been.  Bright as Shakespeare’s, bright as Gandhi’s, bright as Mother Teresa’s.  Clear away everything that keeps you separate from this secret luminous place.  Believe it exists, come to know it better, nurture it, share its fruits tirelessly.

In that little paragraph is the core understanding we Orthodox have about who and what you and I are.  If that perspective is off, then we will not “be in our right minds.”  The perspective is this: we are made in God’s image. The image of God is who and what we are.  Nothing can take that away. Nothing can change it. We are mirrors that reflect God’s glory. His glory shines in us all the time. The mirror is dirty, but it is there. It needs to be cleaned and polished.

At the core of every human being, writes St. Gregory Nazaianzus, is this amazing spark of divinity, created by God, put there by God which nothing, not even sin and death and the devil, can adversely affect.  Sin obscures our vision of this truth.  Fear distracts us from seeing it. The traumas and pains of life keep us from touching it.  All this negative stuff makes us believe wrongly that we are not the image of God, that we are separate from God, that he is far away from us and we are far away from him.  But this is not true.  It is impossible.  The Psalmist tells us that the will of God cannot return to him without accomplishing its purpose, so the image is indefectible. It is like a seed that cannot be destroyed and it is growing and will grow forever until it reaches full fruition over and over again because there is no end to growing.


This is what Christianity teaches and has always taught and it is a very empowerin and life affirming message. I dont see why this should scar anyone and if you happen to have been raised in a church that failed to get this message across then go ahead and criticize that church but dont act like the whole religion is rotten.





First of all. Next time you quote someone to make a point- make sure to give me proof of the citation, at the very least a name so we don't get caught in the "appeal to authority" logical fallacy. Saying someone of importance said something surely does give the argument a little more sway, especially if the person is respectable. Heck, sometimes all you need is someone else than yourself to say something that would prove your point, but as it often happens people tend to lie about what they heard someone say and just say what they want to say under the guise of someone else's authority or numbers.

Second; this is not what Christianity has been teaching. This is what one priest within 1 group of various christian opinion'ates has stated about the soul, the divine within all of us. And though I find the text heart-warming; I find it funny that once someone settles to play by the rules and tries to make a point using the core of your faith- the holy scriptures, you suddenly 360 and point to what some priest said somewhere, as if that would suddenly undo what is being presented as official teachings and what consequences they have brought upon us throughout history.

A heartwarming speech on one priest's spiritual epiphanies hardly accounts for the countless ounces of bullshit in the religion itself. One doesn't have to be orthodox or a christian to come up with what he said. These are natural thoughts occurring to sensitive and spiritual people. However, that I am sinful since before I was born is not something a spiritually sound person would come up with. Much rather, a certain someone who would seek to 'help' me with this force-fed problem. How convenient it would then be, if the remedy for this affliction would coincidentally be to obey a certain authority...oh wait! That's just how christianity is, isn't it?

I was raised in an environment that tried to get across what was written in the scriptures without trying to lube it up my ass, if you'll excuse my french. Pure scripture, for what it was, no bullshit interpreting. Obey god. God is all powerful. He sees all and knows all. He rules all. Here are the rules for you to follow. He loves you for obeying them and he hates his enemies who don't. Don't be his enemy. Or you will suffer forever after you die, especially if you don't believe in his son who was here on earth a while back. Homosexuals are evil. Drugs are evil. Magic is evil. God has killed and murdered these kind of people in the past with fire raining from the skies and floods coming from the earth (killing all the animals for no fucking reason, since they are not as important).

Naturally, I was highly disturbed by the whole thing to say the least... 



Quote:

Deviate said:
Right because every Christian is fighting wars. Christianity is an extremely large religious movement. If you think it's not right for me to say no true Christian did X then neither can you say all Christians are like X. There are good Christians and bad Christians. There are Christians who start wars and Christians who promote peace. This is human nature. If medieval people didn't have Christianity to fight over, they would have fought over something else. CHristianity is just a religion, it can't be held responsible for all the ways it gets used, abused or interpreted. Look at the Mormons, they have one of the weirdest interpretations of the Christian scriptures I know of. Are you going to blame Jesus or the apostles or the early church fathers for Momornism? That doesn't make much sense to me.





Putting aside all the other dark aspects I put forth such as burning people for no fucking reason and killing scientists, I said "religious wars" not "war" in general. And yes, religious wars have been a HUGE thing in christianity and many other religions in the past and still would be, had the age of rationalism not alleviated them of their influence. Concerning christianity, I need only point to the most famous chain of wars known as the crusades.

A perfect example of political reasons, 'spiritual' motivation. Islam in turn had the Jihad. How come? That's right! Because the crusades were mostly targeted at them. Now where I come from, people were pagans, just minding their own business until the order Teutonic comes along as part of the crusade and starts killing, pillaging and burning in the name of the lord. They claimed that they were dealing with heathens, but even after these heathens converted to catholicism the order kept attacking. It would appear that they were interested in lands and titles, nobody gave a shit the heathens accepted their damned religion. 

But I digress. The very fact that christianity HAS been part of such a thing and mature religions such as buddhism or taoism have not gives us something to think about. How would you imagine these said religions would have gone about declaring holy wars with the philosophy found in their particular scriptures, huh? Like this? (it's only 50 seconds, watch it for good laughs :lol: )





Look, get it through your head- I'm not talking about all 'christians' as people. I am assessing what has been achieved by cultures that were submerged into a certain religion both spiritually and culturally. I bet there have been buddhist assholes and quarrels throughout history as well, but in overall their teachings gave birth to a culture that has been and is still one of spiritual mindfulness and sublimity. Peace and compassion. Even today, facing the difficulty of resisting china- there are no bombs or buddhist kung-fu crusades.

Christianity wants to boast of the same, but what christians have achieved (as a whole) within western culture and beyond is the technique of fetishising political agendas, flat out evil acts out of ignorance and fear, rejection of progress due to intense fear of loosing authority and a small existential comfort, albeit only for those who conform. That is the overall achievement chart of christianity.

No one is blaming the apostles or jesus for what other people made of their words. I am blaming people for supporting an institution that has taken said ideas and resulted them in the horrible things I mentioned. Then pleading ignorance and selectism, as if what was done to the world around them wasn't the point, the point was that they are good people and love everybody. What the fuck? 

The very fact that so many different twisted branches of this form of spirituality can emerge only goes to show how inconsistent and easily manipulated its word is. How easy it is to justify bullshit with it. Even different schools of buddhism just have a different view on what meditational practises are most efficient, what path is the most effective. In hinduism its more about semantics; which god married which god and which god is more worthy of rituals than the other. But they all more or less agree on the core aspects and consider each other different schools than separate spiritual teachings. In christianity- it's just a complete different framework every time some new branch forms and there's scandal involved, words like cult or blasphemy, excommunication and whatnot.

Perhaps the most hilarious thing is: christianity started out as a cult. A cult of Judaism. So christianity in itself is an interpretation. That should show you the dangers of making interpretations and trying to establish them as cannon, above others. 


Quote:

Deviate said:
I picked one at random. Its not my fault if you think it was an easy one, then you shouldn't have put it on your list. But I proved my point, these lists are not made by people educated in the interpretation of scipture, so why should I pay attention to what they think are contradictions? Furthermore as I explained (and you ignored) religious texts always contradict themselves because of the paradoxical nature of the spiritual path. Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves. I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it. Spiritual teachings of sufficient complexity will always end up contradicting themselves. It means nothing. Someone who has studied Buddhism should know that.





Riiight... you still have another 204 points to debunk if you want to get anywhere NEAR proving your point. You see, I don't interpret texts to make ends meet one way or the other. I take the texts for what they are. In other words I read them as an orthodox (who are hardcore about not interpreting anything) and disagreeing with it wholeheartedly. In my humble opinion most of christian scripture is inconsistent, irrelevant moral stories with a lot of appealing to conform to a ruler-like figure. In essence, these scriptures teach you how to obey. And then they go "oh yeah, by the way, we love you and we are very merciful and full of light, please remember that while you kneel and cry for being a filthy sinner!".

I ignored it because you clearly don't see the difference between inconsistency and paradoxes. "I just read a book on Buddhism where the author openly admits that the Buddhist scriptures contradict themselves and sees no problem with it." For that argument even to begin to have some sort of relevance you should cite the entire paragraph from the book itself were it says so and then find actual scripture that does, as you put it, contradict itself. Adding the book name and author would help.

Either way, appealing to "all my friends do it too" doesn't make inconsistencies okay. Contradictions are sometimes not contradictions when you are more aware of the contexts and a subtle linguistic stunt takes place. That's when a contradiction becomes a paradox. On the other hand, when a contradiction is merely confusing with seemingly no obvious connection to meaning, that's when it is an aspect of inconsistency.

And please, if you're gonna go crazy and say that every single point in the list is a paradox, then you're gonna have an easy time debunking all 204 points and explaining them to us, right? Because right now, all I see is 204 contradictions that are just mere inconsistencies. I will however stand corrected honourably if you manage to prove it otherwise. After all, that is why I made this topic. But don't expect me not to challenge you.   


Quote:

Deviate said:
You're simply wrong. As I explained, the early Biblical texts give a very primitive understanding of God, whereas the new testament presents a revolutionary new understanding of God. This is known as progressive revelation, not contradiction. But think whatever you want, you're entitled to your own opinion.





So, there's that christian "you are wrong!" Thought you were above that... :shrug: If these texts were such primitive understandings of god then modern scholars should simply have excluded them so that ambitious primitive-minded people wouldn't use them to justify their horrendous acts.

The new testament is an extension of Judaism. Those who stood by it thought that the things predicted in Judaism are coming to pass and should be noted. It is, in essence, an interpretation, given that bits and pieces of Judaic scriptures are also within christianity, but only those that support their interpretation.

But the fact that you're calling this interpretation a revolutionary new understanding of god only shows what I had said earlier- just another branch of organised religion trying to compete with the old one by stating that it is better, newer and closer to god than the older one is. This is known as dividing, quarrel and pride. If everyone would just be immersed into their own spirituality, we wouldn't have these problems...     


Quote:

Deviate said:
That may be all you get from it, but other more adept readers see divine truth interwoven throughout the stories of the Torah. Again, you're entitled to your opinion but why should the world bend to your opinion? Maybe pay a little more attention to the spiritual teachings given by Christ instead of simply the history.





Ahhh... "Adept readers"? Once again, dividing between followers within the group itself. Looks like another sneaky "No true scotsman". A TRUE, adept reader will understand it right, whilst where one who isn't- won't understand and therefore make a fool of himself. Bullshit. Divine truth my ass. Murder. War. Rape. Pillaging. Human and animal sacrifice. Senseless slaughter. Punishment for not obeying. These are the actual contents of the early books. If you wanna do the whole "it's a metaphor" act, that's fine by me. Just don't expect everyone to try and feed themselves something as horrible as that and smile. 

Because christianity and judaism are so powerfully interwoven with history and politics that you would be a fool to discredit the importance of these two factors forming the religion itself. Example: Babylon is described as an evil city in Judaism. Why? Because the jewish tribes were at war with it at the time. Their faith literally vilified a nation which made the jews more prone to lend themselves to the war itself. Now babylon was no evil city at all. It was just another city.

How does this work into your adept metaphorical reading skills? What hidden divine message to you see between the lines here? All I see is clever political manipulation and it was this beautiful technique that was passed down to the new testament as well because the romans saw the genius behind it. That's why they made it the main religion so suddenly after 300 years of persecution. Why? Because the god before that (the emperor cult etc.) was waining.   

The spiritual teachings in christianity are minimal, constrictive, non-flexible and grossly associated with the political climates of the time in order to manipulate and direct the masses of people with threats of damnation and promises of eternal life. This is OBVIOUS. You need not bend to my opinion, simply bend to your religion's own history and you will see that my opinion is one that is based on what christianity has done both culturally AND historically. As V from V for Vendetta said "I did not come for you for what you sought to do, I come for you for what you have done." I am not merely stating my opinion, I am stating my observations that form my core opinion on this religion. Simple as that.


Quote:

Deviate said:
Again, your opinion. I disagree, I think spiritual organizations can play an important role in an individual's spiritual development. There is something that takes place when you worship in a community setting that is very difficult to achieve at home by yourself. You like Buddhism and Buddhists have temples and monasteries and ceremonies just like Christians. It's the same thing.




Already commented on organised religion in the beginning. If you find spiritual states and fruits difficult to reach by yourself and you are in constant need of affirmation from your surroundings- then that just proves what I said about christianity. It is a herd manipulation technique more than it is about personal sublimity, though I can understand enjoying being between people who are spiritual. But even more so, I think it's enjoyable to be between people who are their own person and you are yours.

Just for the record, I didn't say I particularly like buddhism. I just respect it and I think many religions have much to learn from it, that's why it often shows up in my examples and so on and so forth. And yet Buddhism has its own set of bullshit, but right now we are talking about christianity, which has an abundance of it.   



Quote:

Deviate said:
Yes, I am a Christian in the eyes of the community itself. I am a catholic and no one has ever told me I couldn't be catholic because of how I interpret scripture. On the contrary, almost every way I interpret scripture already exists somewhere within the church, by some saint or theologian. That's what I love about Christianity, virtually ever view point imaginable on it's interpretation has put forward and debated about by the great saints and theologians of history. Any time there is anything controversy within Christianity, some group somewhere believes in the view that is now considered heretical. You can find literally everything under the umbrella of Christianity.

You see, what you are doing is stereotyping all "real" Christians as being degenerate ingrates who have the most primitive possible understanding of scripture and knwo nothing of the interior life and are completely intolerant of other religions. Now, there may be some CHristians out there who fit this description (mostly in protestant denominations imo) but to be honest, I have never actually met a Christian like this. I have to admit that before I converted, I myself believed in this idiotic stereotype and assumed that 99% of CHristians were like this and only 1% were guenuinly spiritual people. and I remember when I first came into the church I kept thinking how lucky I was to keep meeting Christians who fell into that one percent of genuinely spiritual people. Eventually I finally realized, it couldn't just be 1% or there is no way I would keeping meeting people like myself. The truth is there are plenty of very well educated Christians out there, who know about other religions and still choose to be CHristian. Christians are also a lot more tolerant of other religions than you think. For example, in my RCIA class one day we began class with the following quote from a Hindu saint: Scattered mind = madman, quiet mind = saint, still mind = God. I have to admit I was surprised to hear that said in a Catholic Church but I certainly wasn't going to complain about it. You are actually the one who is being intolerant here, I have met many Buddhists who respect the Christian tradition. Christianity is truly one of the great religions of the world. It has benefited my spiritual life and that of countless other people throughout history.





Obviously you have not disclosed much about yourself to your religions authorities or other people within your religion. You've said just enough for them to agree with you wholeheartedly, thus you earn your affirmation, but you withheld just enough as well, only disclosing more for those who are just as Deviated (see what I did there?) about christianity as you are. I don't see why you are celebrating the divide of opinion in your own religion (not diversity, divide). I wonder how your spiritual elders would look at your drug habits?

Please don't conjure up another "No true scotsman"... I see how you're trying to add the fact that you believe 'your kind' are the majority rather than those 'other, baaaad' christians. After all, then it wouldn't be a "No true scotsman", but instead just you apologising for the other, less intelligent minority of your religion. Well, I am positive you're just trying to glaze it over. Those "baaaad christians"  are the absolute majority and the fact that proves this is that christianity as a whole shows no signs of maturing.

If most people in christianity are as you describe them, then why is it that the 'uneducated' christians run the show and christianity untill this day comes off to many as something unpleasant, judgemental and pretentious? In fact, it is you who appears to me as the great minority in christianity, Deviate. Its apologist, which they wouldn't even appreciate or allow to reform anything.

Also, just because christians bring up hindu teachings doesn't make them more open to them or mean that they show signs of progressiveness. They selectively pick out little pieces of the hindu teachings so that they can explain it in a christian view, thus enforcing the view that their religion is just as wise and thoughtful as the eastern religions of ancient times. And since people find these religions more and more compelling to their spiritual nature, thus christianity tries to 'analogize' themselves to them in order to gain psychological favour and that's why they brought it up, in case you wondered.

But try making them talk about the broader aspects of the hindu faith and they'll be compelled to disagree completely, calling out heresy. That they are wrong and misunderstand the universe completely. Or, as you would do, try to find any metaphor to keep the show of tolerance running instead of confronting actual differences.       


Quote:

Deviate said:
I don't believe I understand it better, on the contrary my understanding of CHristianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True I may understand it better than some, but that is the case for everyone, there will always be people above you and people below you in any religion




I'm sorry, but that humbleness appeared sort of fake and just for the sake of argument. So you are part of the elite and there are people in the elite that understand the scriptures better than you? It sure was a nice try to smooth it, but you lost it the moment you said "True, i might understand it better than some" That sentence reveals everything to me. It is all this divide within these kind of organised religions that astound me and keeps the circle of strife going. 


Quote:

Deviate said:
Why judge people though? I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person and I was always on guard against the stereotype you keep putting forward. But when I actually met Christians and realized they were not really like that stereotype, at least not the ones in my church, I stopped judging. Other people are at different levels of spiritual understanding and growth. Some people believe in a very childish understanding of Christianity. It is this way with other religions too. There are Buddhsits who are enlightened, Buddhists who are seriously seeking enlightenment, and Buddhists who just worship Buddha on Sunday (or whatever day Buddhist worship is). I do not judge these people. They are on their trip, I am on mine. Who am I to tell someone "No, that's not how you be a Buddhist. You need to become enlightened"





You just said you felt that you have a deeper understand of Christianity than the average person and now you deny it? Or was that just one of the fabled paradoxes you were talking about earlier? :wink:



WARNING: THE FOLLOWING CONTENT IS HUMOUR


Quote:

Deviate said:
My understanding of Christianity is vastly inferior to that of the saints which I study and look up to. True, I may understand it better than some.
-Deviate 9:1

I used to be like you, and felt that I had a deeper understanding of Christianity than the average person.
-Deviate 9:3




/HUMOUR




Look, I'm not judging people or trying to be an asshole. Not really. I just have a problem with their behaviour and I'm merely calling them out to defend it, to help me understand wether they are themselves fully aware of what they are enforcing.

Don't try to make me out to be following some sort of stereotype of christian people. I have met many christians and very few of them were as you describe them and the ones that were believed to achieve this through a different interpretation of the scriptures altogether, much like yourself.

I asked them what they thought about how christianity came across as a whole because of their actions and they'd just shrug and go something down the lines of "they're not true christians". Sounds familiar?

It took everything in me not to tell them "No. You're just not a christian. You're something beyond that and you should stop associating yourself with them until you see that they want to promote change and growth." But now I'm not gonna pass up on saying exactly that to you, Deviate.

No, you see, if you truly believed in people being on their own trip, then you'd stop perpetuating organised religion. Especially one that is such as christianity is. Now i'm not saying people can't take elements from christianity or buddhism and apply it to themselves on their own spiritual journey. I'm just saying that they shouldn't be calling themselves christian or buddhist when they only follow part their teaching or interpret/slightly change it to suit their own understanding of life.

By this logic- why have organised religion the way it is today at all? Which brings us back to what I wrote in the beginning.

There's a perfect circle for you.


:likeaboss:




I dont have to debunk all 204 contradictions or what have you, I already proved my point that the list was not compiled by people who are educated in the interpretation of scripture.

As for the rest of your post, all I see is your very lengthy opinions. Let me give you one example:

"However, that I am sinful since before I was born is not something a spiritually sound person would come up with."

How the heck do you know and who appointed you judge of who is "spiritually sound"? I mean, don't get me wrong you are certainly entitled to your opinions but I don't share your opinions and I have no desire to argue about things that are entirely subjective in nature.


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