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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I don't have trouble accepting it. I have trouble respecting it. I expect such behavior.
![]() And I discuss this issue to give some food for thought to our audience because on some level I still care about our world.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 5 months |
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Spiritual awakening is the best way to help the world. How can one bring peace to the world if one is not peaceful?
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Tell that to the Catholic Church. Slave labor, witch burning, pedophilia, land confiscation, forced conversions, torture etc. etc.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Intrusive and damaging to the human psyche is not only 'not perfect', it's outright wrong i don't respect religions that place themselves above others and damage their followers to perpetuate their suffering and project them onto others intrusively."When an honest man discovers he is mistaken, he will either cease being mistaken, or cease being honest.” Your story of how you got into christianity obviously shows that you "need" it. And that need is above all the bad things that have been wrought upon others because of your faith. That's an odd relationship to something that should set you free, if you ask me ![]() Please don't try to copy-cat me your sentences contradicted each other in the very sense of time and general sense. Concerning my own sentences, you're just trying to interpret your way to a point using sophistry I wrote that there SHOULD be no superiority between spiritual practises, that is my belief and virtue on the said subject. That sure doesn't stop christianity from putting themselves above all others and due to such actions (OF THEIRS) I believe that people are wasting their time with it, not because they are an inferior teaching. If people want to get jiggy with hell & heaven, good and evil and guilt; that's their business if it works for them. But ideally those who do not wish to be involved should be left alone. That is respect. I can't show respect for a faith that offers none as a whole to others. Quote: I do not concern myself with your opinion of wether the english language works. I was making a point that christianity, like the english language is not widespread because it is particularly good (I should know, I speak 6 languages), but because historically, the british have ruled over a fourth of the planet, leaving traces of their culture everywhere. Christianity works in the same framework- people had it forced upon them due to the missionary ages and today we feel the results of such efforts. That analogy is faulty on so many different levels the english language is not an ideology. it is a mere language and therefore i cannot disrespect the language itself because that people who happened to communicate in it did some horrendous shite. Christianity, however, is an ideology and a lot of shite was done IN ITS NAME. That gives one reason to respect or disrespect it. That's the difference that breaks your little analogy. Now that you mentioned the enslavement of blacks- i find it funny how a people guided by such a (in your own words) "working" form of spiritual practise as christianity, where god created man in his image and loved all equally, could have fathomed to do such a thing to the african people and even better- to justify it in the name of the lord and nature ![]() There was nothing complex about the crusades. People in power utilised christianity to rally supporters for their wars in the name of jesus. Simple as that. The very fact that christianity did not heal europe's warring tendencies shows that it was adopted to further enhance them if jesus 'hadn't come' to do so, they would probably have found another name and done the exact same thing. Jesus was an opportunity for those in power to become the moral authority for the common person. They took it. It's useless to talk about "what would have been" because we are discussing the history and results of said spiritual practice. No need to argue just for the sake of arguing. Stay on topic please. And yes, I can observe how christianity arose, impacted and changed the specific culture where it came into existence. I don't understand why you would deny the validity of such observations ![]() Quote: I don't focus solely on the bad. I merely believe that the good done by christianity pales in comparison to the bad and that any spiritual relief found by a few people within the religion was attained at the expense of other people's pain. I'm not focusing at the bad per se, I've seen singular positive outcomes of christianity, true. But I'm looking at the overall view whilst you just happen to focus on your narrow super-positive and enlightening vision of christianity, so I have to point out all the nasty stuff to snap you out of it And when you see the overall view- you realise you can do better than that. Plain and simple.If the value of the pure teachings of christianity were so plain and obvious- why did no one push back against those who sought to further their sick agenda in the name of christianity? Why did virtually everyone scream in agreement for the witches to be burned, for the scientists to be killed and for wars to protect the kingdom of god? How is it that virtually the entire populace that followed this religion misunderstood its content to the point were they allowed evil people to pervert it for their own purposes? It's because it was never meant to wake people up. It was meant as means to control and rally people to a cause. You can't simply point to the positive things and say "this is what it's really all about". We all know that story. Ends justify the means? I think not. A spiritual practise is not merely what is written down. A spiritual practise is what its followers make of it. There were many heresies and false gods? See that's where you're wrong and were the rotten christian teachings really start to shine. There are no false gods and there are no heresies. People find their own spiritual way and sometimes that means a way other than a christian god. Who are christians to judge what a false god is? Completely ridiculous and childish. This shows how much of an immature religion it truly was and to some point- still is. So wait, you're saying that if the head of your spiritual teaching craves power and justifies this desire with christianity and he exercises his will with christianity, that that does somehow not diminish christianity at all? You, my good sir are in pure grade-A denial. To say "it was bound to happen" (that christianity would attack and rape other religions) is simply the biggest plea of ignorance I have seen from you. That is NOT answer and far from an actual defending argument. Oh boy, here we go "Temporal" things, huh? People do not only worship the sun or the moon itself. THROUGH them, they worship something much more subtle. They choose to worship through things they feel they have a connection with because the spiritual experience is just that- an experience of connectivity. Your christian discrimination and self-superiority is really starting to shine. No non-christian faiths are heretical. Faiths are merely faiths and we judge them by their impact on the human spiritual condition, not by what christianity thinks about them. Just because you claim to be more tolerant to other religions doesn't disarm the fact that you find yourself superior to them because you worship "the eternal" whilst in your own eyes, they worship "temporal things" and are therefore somehow "less connected" or "less refined" than yourself. It's a classic "tolerant christian" thing Christianity did not HAVE to take a stand against other religions and don't you try to justify it because you are failing miserably.Quote: Why the hell not? You're telling me that christians couldn't let other people worship what they wanted because it was in direct conflict with their own world-view? What kind of a backwards explanation is that? This just proves what i've been telling you all along ![]() Quote: Teaching you something shouldn't be a challenge. I believe in teaching through being an example and I'm not going to teach you how to find your own spiritual connection to the sublime and eternal by pointing you from one opinion to another. This should be your own experience and I respect that. I found that being completely genuine with oneself as a human being, not as a follower of certain spiritual teachings, helped me get closer to the spiritual experience than I previously could as a follower. Check my sig. That's all I'm going to say about it ![]() Quote: FAULTY ANALOGY- AGAIN! In your analogy- the mathematics course is the christian teachings. The university is the organised body of the teachings aka the church. Well, it doesn't work that way because MATHEMATICS hasn't taught questionable doctrines that leads people to evil acts in contrast to the CHRISTIAN TEACHINGS. In this analogy of yours, if within the principles of mathematics it would be taught that people who believe in another form of mathematics should be put to the stake and burned- THEN your analogy would be worth discussing. But in the real world, mathematics has not taught such things and if a university that teaches maths had done evil acts existed, then maths in itself would have nothing to do with their acts and the university should be held accountable (I don't understand how in this little fantasy of yours they still haven't been...). But when talking about the church- the christian teachings HAVE taught some outright pretty evil shit and people in the church have merely been following what was written plainly on paper. Therefore the christian teachings have everything to do with what the christian church has done and is still doing today. Even they themselves say that they base their actions on the christian teachings AND they back that statement up with scriptures. So stop trying to give us the impression that everyone besides yourself, including the heads of the church, have simply misunderstood christianity whilst you and a select few hold all the answers. You're in denial just as all your fellow apologist. "No true scotsman" is your holy grail. Exclude all the bad people and their actions as "no true christians" and all the bad and evil scripture as "a true christian will understand the holiness in it". Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/09/13 09:29 AM)
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Your awakening is at the expense of enforcing a corrupt institution. It is selfish. Read your bible at home. Make and altar and pray at home. Listen to yourself and stop enforcing the insistent and inconsiderable expanse of your faith. Why enforce the church just because if makes a convenient place for you to worship and feel good? That's their trick. They make you dependable on them and you think you're free. They don't care what you think you're doing. The point is what comes out of having masses of people attend and be directed or influenced by you in the stage of the world. -------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/09/13 09:51 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 5 months |
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The church doesn't make you free, it is merely an aide like all other spiritual practices. Some people need that aide. I do read my Bible at home but it is nice to worship with other people also. You learn things from meeting other people who are also on the spiritual path that you simply dont learn by yourself. Also, i prefer to surround myself with spiritual people rather than worldly people and church is a great place to connect with other people who share an interest in the spiritual part of life. You think thats selfish? well I dont care, sometimes you have to look after yourself, especially when you are as psychologically ill as i was. After the spiritual disaster of my early 20s I got stuck in a state of consciousness that I had no idea how to get out of and no awareness practices worked for me. Orginally I was drawn to the path of awareness, Buddhism and Hinduism, but after my spiritual disaster, I lost complete control of my ability to concentrate.
I thought I was doomed until as I was re-reading Ramana Maharshi's teachings I saw that he said that love for God could fix everything, no matter how bad you were at meditation. It was rthen I realized I needed to develop love for God. It is possible to do this without a religion but I was very unorganized and undisciplined. I needed a clear, systematic approach that would give structure to my spiritual path. Obviously this is not speaking from high levels of spiritual realization or anything close to them. At high levels, the spirit takes over and you stop needing anything outside yourself. But i was stuck far below this level. Anyway, the church gave me exactly what I needed to get me beyond that stage and it gave me even more than that. That is when I realized what a great resource it was. And truly regardless of all the "bad" things you can come up with, it is a great spiritual resource. You have to understand that we live in a world where, from a spiritual perspective, the average person is crazy, with a totally fabricated value system. Therefore, anything that helps one to awake up out of this is very good by worldly standards. " There were many heresies and false gods? See that's where you're wrong and were the rotten christian teachings really start to shine. There are no false gods and there are no heresies. People find their own spiritual way and sometimes that means a way other than a christian god. Who are christians to judge what a false god is? " who are you to judge Christianity? if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too. The things Christians have done, in the name of Jesus dont really make a difference as far as I am concerned. The fact is that Jesus came to teach a new way of being. several people understood and followed his message and a huge religion grew out of that movement and its teachings are about as good and true as any other religion. The fact that some Christians did bad things doesnt change the truth of the teachings or the integrity of those who follow them. In fact as far as I am concerned, Buddhism is just the same teachings under a different name. Thats why I cant help but think anyone who likes Buddhism but hates Christianity is a little batty. To me they are the same thing. I mean what are going to argue, Buddha phrased it better? well what if I am on a level where I dont care about phrasing? Edited by Deviate (12/10/13 05:25 AM)
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Stranger Registered: 03/23/13 Posts: 72 Loc: CT Last seen: 9 years, 1 month |
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I'll tell you why there are so many contradictions in the bible: It's because of all the changes the Hebrew people went through and the subsequent changes in their theology. You see truth seekers, the Hebrew people went through many permutations after being exposed to various foreign cultures. The most significant of which was the Babylonian captivity, were you had some Jews coming back to Israel after many years talking about life after death or the afterlife if you prefer, heaven and hell and the devil, Zoroastrian concepts not seen in pre exile Judaism. I'd go so far as to say that if there had been no Babylonian captivity there would have been no Book of Daniel, no Christianity, no Book of Enoch, no Gnosticism.
Edited by Skydawg (12/11/13 06:26 PM)
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Quote: Well said sir! Also, many of these contradictions are taken completely out of context. I am not a hardline Christian, but I was raised to be one by my parents and attended a Christian primary school. I have not been to inside of a church in many years. Between my pastor commiting suicide and the hypocrisy; I decided to walk my own path. I've never been too keen on the literal interpretation of the Bible, but like most religions there is a lot that can be learned from the teachings it contains. -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Certainly the path I would take and the same one Jesus seemed to have taken away from the religious leaders of his time.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: From how you described your relationship to christianity in this and other threads- seems like it's an aide you can't do without to me You can surround yourself with enjoyable people anywhere you want, why specifically choose the church? Because you have grown dependent on their patron like figure to sanction your behaviour?It's selfish because you are enforcing an institution that is criminal, prejudice, manipulative, economical and political just to experience a sense of spiritual relief from a life that you feel has threatened your very being (again, what I put together from your story of entering christianity). And no wonder that is part of the christian framework. But the truly selfish part is where you ignore how many people christianity leans on by putting pressure on them for not adopting or following their beliefs. How christianity uses other people as let-outs of spiritual and moral superiority. Heck, within the institution they tend to do it so much that it even starts to happen amongst themselves How you find that to be compatible with an institution that should in theory be the very embodiment of the spiritual path is beyond me If christianity was as mature a religion as buddhism and they would recede from the worldly matters and practise their beliefs in peace, only sending out an humble emissary once in a while and solely accepting those who come to learn themselves- that would be a whole other story. Let me relate to you here. I've had my own personality/spirituality crisis in the beginning of my 20s a while back. The details are unimportant. Point is; panic attacks, intense derealization, general anxiety, constant odd physical sensations, feeling existential dread and worry. Think it was easy for me to focus? No. When a person close to me tried to bring me into Krsna'ism at the time, did I give in? No. Religious guilt and god-anxiety was part of my problem, mainly established by christian theology when I was a kid. Instead, I set out with the bits and pieces of philosophy that inspired me, with the meditation techniques that worked for me, decided to strip gods of their names and concepts and just prepare to experience what I would. I armed myself with critical thinking and the knowledge vaults of science (especially physiology) since my crisis clearly felt as much physical as it did psychological. I meditated, I observed how I experienced certain things in life, my behaviour and habits, I knew there was something wrong deep down inside. I weighed and changed how I viewed many things, including drugs. I suffered through the symptoms and observed how i reacted to them the way I did. What triggered them? Many fears, personality disorders, complexes became clear to me. Years of ups and downs. Holy grails that would alleviate me and black holes that would suck me right back in; it was the wildest ride of my life without a doubt and I wouldn't have traded it for a "god will fix everything" if I could do it all over again. Not to say that what I did was better than what someone else would have chosen. Point is you have given yourself to god AND to a religion. Which would be fine if the institution overseeing the religion wasn't just plain and simply being a complete douce to other people. And thus we criticise the religion for making this wholly possible. Wait So, I criticise christianity for judging and intruding on other people's spiritual path and you then tell me 'who are you to judge christianity, if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too.' ? What is wrong with you, Deviate? are you even reading what I'm writing? You're clearly ignoring my point. Yes its fine that people find their own spiritual path, including if its christianity. What is not fine is that christianity tends to get on peoples backs for finding their own spiritual path, that is to say- NOT christianity. Get. It. Through. Your. Head. ![]() "The things Christians have done, in the name of Jesus dont really make a difference as far as I am concerned." I'm not even going to answer this. What jesus taught was not really that revolutionary tbh and if you think that that was the way christianity grew to become such a huge religion, that just shows how little you actually know about your own religion. I like Buddhism as an organised religion for the maturity they have demonstrated and the peaceful, wise actions they display in the world-theatre, being somewhat divided among themselves as they are. I dislike Christianity as an organised religion for the immature, judgemental, insistent attitude they have towards others and the horrible things done and that will be done in its name. They are NOT the same thing. Cola and Water are both a beverage. They do not have the same effect on your organism just because you use them the same way. But that's actually not even my point. I don't care what level you think you're on It's not about who phrased it better, because that's completely subjective. It's about this: someone thought it would be better to form a group for said spiritual practise. Now, whilst following that spiritual path, what did the group do for humanity as a whole? Did they contribute spiritually more than they negatively impacted people's lives? Simple as that. And even if christianity is on the second half (imo), that doesn't mean they couldn't adjust, admit their mistakes and change their ways over time and be just as loved and respected as buddhism probably is. It's just that it seems to choose not to ![]() Quote: Yo Skydawg, I heard you like change. So we put a change in your change so you can change while we change ![]() Quote: Slick name Completely out of context, huh? I seem to be getting that a lot. Will you do me the honour of proving them wrong then? Shouldn't be too hard if it's all just a matter of context that the rest of us uneducated are unaware about, right? Your own path? Good for you. That's what I'm advocating here as well I don't see much you can learn from christianity, but then again, might just not be my taste of phrasing. But to me, it would appear their scriptures are as inconsistent as are their actions as a group when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see. Quote: Hear hear! "Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me." Sure sounds like a "my way or the highway" to me Why not "Jesus said to him, "I am a way, a truth, and life; everyone comes to the Father through Me" ??? That would have saved so many lives and people who would enjoy christiniaty could enjoy that, whilst those who enjoy paganism could enjoy that ![]() But nooooo.... it would appear 99.99% of christians weren't above phrasing, Deviate. You know why? Cause you're only above phrasing when the obvious meaning doesn't suit your opinion In the religious leader of the time, such phrasing suited them just fine. After all, they had to get a war going, there was power to gain!
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/13/13 11:34 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 5 months |
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Basically what it comes down to is that you prefer Buddhism over Christianity. That's all. The rest is merely your own value judgments and as someone knowledgeable about Buddhism you should know how baseless those are.
The path of awareness taught in Buddhism is very different from the faith path in Christianity. Many of the problems associated with the latter are in my opinion products of the faith path. Instead of expanding awareness it often leads to narrow mindedness as a side effect. This is unfortunate but I dont really see what could have been done about it. The path of awareness is not appropriate for many people, they either just dont get it or cannot control their minds well enough to meditate. This is where I was when I found CHristianity. Any sort of mindfulness or awareness practices were sheer torture for me, because of the state my mind was in, even though my personality actually is much more drawn to the path of awareness than the faith path. It was a huge inner struggle for me to move from the path of awareness to the faith path, but because of the damage done to my mind I was not able to follow the path of awareness at that time. Quote: Yes, who are you to judge especially if you think judging is wrong? two wrong dont make a right. The path of faith is based in value judgments. The path of awareness is not. One path is not superior to the other, they are each according to the state of mind of the aspirant. your judgments are relative to you and if you think they are true in an ultimate sense, you have not understood Buddhism. Its perfectly fine to say that Buddhism tends to lead to peace and tolerance whereas CHristianity tends to leads to narrow mindedness and intolerance. I would agree. Does that mean that Buddhism is better than CHrisianity? of course not. Thats a value judgment. Its baseless. ALso, why should I assume your posts are a fair comparison? for instance you ingore the fact that Christians have done far more care for the poor than Buddhists. I mean, there is absolutely no reason for me to take what you are saying as anything more than your personal preference. Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 11:45 AM)
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 5 months |
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Quote: the catholic church is an enormous church that has existed since the time of the apostles. It has done tons of good and tons of bad. how one feels about it is really subjective. Me having a spiritual worldview, i tend to look at the good and forgive the bad because i see the spiritual advancement of humanity as being worth the side effects and corruption that come from organized religion. I fully understand if someone else doesnt see things that way, but I would appreciate it if they would respect the fact that the catholic church is sacred to me. Now why do I support organized religion despite all the corruption and scandal? I explain below. Quote: Well again it comes down to personal beliefs. If you believe in the Real Presence of the Lord Jesus Christ in the most blessed sacrament of the alter, you are going to see the church very differently from someone who believes that this Lords supper is merely symbolic. Before I became catholic I really didnt see the difference between catholicism and protestantism and what not. Was all the same to me. After I learned more about the various denominations I realized that the belief in the real presence was central to the catholic faith as well as Eastern Orthodox. At the time I had a very difficult time believing in that Jesus was present in a piece of bread. I remember the first time I went to adoration, it seemed absurd to me. Everyone sitting around adoring a little tiny piece of bread, lol. I was like what the hell is this all about? We worship a cracker? I really did not believe in the real presence until my first communion, during which I was hit with an incredibly powerful spiritual energy. of course i dont expect my experience to mean anything to you or to anyone else but for me, it would be irrational to deny my own experience. there are really only two possibilites here. possibility A) Jesus Christ is actually present in the most blessed sacrament or at least some very powerful form of spiritual energy is transmitted during this ritual in some way. possibility B) it was a placebo effect. Now, obviously you are going to think it was B because that fits better with your belief system and thats fine. I would think you were dumb if someone elses spiritual experiences were convincing to you. However, in my case it was my own experience. I had to decide which possibility was more likely. Given myself, i know that the placebo effect has very little if any effect on me. For example, I have gotten bunk drugs before and I once accidentally injected a shot of water thinking it was heroin. Now that was a perfect instance to test the placebo effect. I was expecting a huge heroin rush and instead i felt essentially nothing. I remember instantly thinking "man that heroin sucked. I barely felt a thing". so this tells me that it is unlikely that the placebo effect can be mistaken for something which is truly active. Furthermore, I was not even expecting to feel anything from the Eucharist and beyond that, I had been very depressed and dead inside for many years. Its not like I was the type of person given to strong emotions or meaningfull experiences. On the contrary i was the type of person who could scarcely find a reason to get out of bed in the morning and nothing much ever really effected me or could change how i felt even the slightest bit, not even large doses of heroin. I had remained in the same flat emotionally dead headspace for years. Its not like I was capable of fooling myself into feeling even a little bit alive, let alone the type of power I experienced in the Eucharist. Anyway, point being I recognized the spiritual energy in the Eucharist IMMEDIATELY. In fact it was the exact same energy which has possessed me many times while under the influence of psychedelics, only in a much purer more concentrated form. So did my brain somehow generate that experience spontaneously when I consumed the body of Christ because of the circumstances and my expectations? For the sake of reason I will admit that it is possible, but it strikes me as so insanely unlikely that I am logically forced to conclude that the other possibility is actually more likely. Jesus Christ is actually present in the most blessed sacrament of the alter as the church has taught and saints have attested to for the past 2,000 years. Now given this, my reasons for devotion to the church should be obvious. Its not a matter of my choosing. Its a matter of the fact that if I believe Jesus Christ is present in the holy eucharist, how can I not take advantage of the opportunity to actually consume his body and blood? I dont care what evils the church has done, it apparently possesses something of unmeasurable value. There is no one more surprised by this than I was. But I am not going to supress and deny my own experience of divinity just because it doesnt fit with what I thought possible prior. I was incredibly skeptical about the Real Presence and even if it were possible, i was skeptical that this apparently corrupt scandalous church actually possessed something of this nature. It reminded me of an episode of that show with that guy who goes around the world eating crazy foods. In one episode, he goes to eat with some bushmen and one night they perform one of their religious rituals with him. During the ritual something happens to him and he experiences some form of spiritual energy that blows him away. I never expected to experience something like that myself, let alone in a mainstream church, but it happened and not only once but I have since had numerous encounters with the Cosmic Christ through holy communion. Edited by Deviate (12/13/13 01:03 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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Now given this, my reasons for devotion to the church should be obvious. Its not a matter of my choosing. Its a matter of the fact that if I believe Jesus Christ is present in the holy eucharist, how can I not take advantage of the opportunity to actually consume his body and blood? I dont care what evils the church has done, it apparently possesses something of unmeasurable value. There is no one more surprised by this than I was. But I am not going to supress and deny my own experience of divinity just because it makes me unpopular on this forum.
I guess that sums up the difference between you and me. I care for something more than just myself. But I'm not going to condemn you for choosing otherwise. In many ways you and I are alike. But there is an incredibly vast chasm between us in other ways and I really don't know what to make of that. I consider you somewhat of an enigma. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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newbie Registered: 04/20/03 Posts: 4,497 Last seen: 8 years, 5 months |
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Quote: Ramana Maharshi compared the Bodhisattva path to a dreamer who swears not to wake up until all the other people in his dream have awakened. Get it? Thats not to say we should not care about others, only that our primarily responsibility is to wake up "seek ye first the kingdom of heaven and its righteousness and then all else shall be added unto you". The twig in your brothers eye and beam in your own eye parable also comes to mind. Jesus said to first remove the beam from your own and then you will see clearly to remove the beam from your brothers eye. So it can seem selfish at times but its a matter of the fact that if I am not mentally and spiritually healthy myself I am really in no position to help anyone else.
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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If I support or condone organizations harm others I'll never be spiritually ready imo nor would I want to be. That's not spiritual.
I'll never agree with your position on this. It makes less than no logical sense. It's pathological imo. -------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Stranger Registered: 03/23/13 Posts: 72 Loc: CT Last seen: 9 years, 1 month |
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After all my studies on the subject of Christianity, Gnosticism is by far my favorite approach. It stresses personal revelation over personal salvation and has a very different take on things than traditional Christianity and is well worth exploring. Start with Miguel Conner, He mixes humor with wisdom and has had a lot of towering scholars on his radio program Aeon byte Gnostic radio. He also has a lot of his radio shows on youtube.
http://www.aeonbytegnosticradio. Edited by Skydawg (12/13/13 06:09 PM)
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The Minstrel in the Gallery Registered: 03/15/05 Posts: 95,368 Loc: underbelly |
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I agree. They don't seem to organize around criminal institutions.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Slick name Completely out of context, huh? I seem to be getting that a lot. Will you do me the honour of proving them wrong then? Shouldn't be too hard if it's all just a matter of context that the rest of us uneducated are unaware about, right? Your own path? Good for you. That's what I'm advocating here as well I don't see much you can learn from christianity, but then again, might just not be my taste of phrasing. But to me, it would appear their scriptures are as inconsistent as are their actions as a group when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see.
The onus is not on me to prove. This forum is meant for discussion not debate. I picked up my Bible and checked out the first two contradictions and they are essentially moot. Some in this list are comparing new vs old testaments which are well known to have somewhat conflicting versions of God. That said, the message was consistent if one reads the surrounding verses. If you are really interested google the chapter(s)/verse(s) referenced and read the verses leading up to and following. This will give the true context, you can interpret it how you choose but I guess we will have to agree to disagree until then. As far as wisdom contained... John 15:17 comes to mind "This is my command: Love each other" - Jesus -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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PATIENCE Registered: 07/13/13 Posts: 705 Loc: Earth |
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Quote: My thoughts exactly! -------------------- "Live as if you were to die tomorrow. Learn as if you were to live forever." Mahatma Gandhi
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Neuromancer ☿ Registered: 05/21/09 Posts: 1,037 Last seen: 2 years, 3 months |
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Quote: That's not what it comes down to no need to simplify everything to that level, Deviate. I do prefer Buddhism over Christianity. I think any person would acknowledge the possible validity of both of these spiritual teachings (which I have)Quote: But obviously, looking back on political, social and cultural influence; I'd prefer a religion to be as mature as Buddhism. In other words; Christianity may have a lump of gold (being their teachings) but they tend to smash heads with it and therefore I prefer Buddhism. I don't think that there's anything wrong with that. But again, no. This is not what it "comes down to". We've been talking about the inconsistencies, vile behaviour, mentally scarring properties, historical tragedies, insistent attitude of christianity as an organised religion functioning in a the human socium. Get that through your head and stop trying to derail this discussion from the actual point. Quote: Dude... what the actual fuck? There's a difference between objectively criticising a groups behaviour and being a judgemental asshole who thinks his opinion on what life is all about is the most refined and sublime one out there, so refined that others just HAVE to think the same way. I'm remarking on christianity's reoccurring behaviour to intrude on other people's spiritual path. I'm not judging christianity "as a person", I'm criticising it as an establishment with certain unwanted traits. You saying "if people find their own spiritual way, then Christianity is ok too" is completely backwards Yes, in that case christianity would be ok too... if they didn't intrude with their beliefs on those said people that found their own way! Why are you ignoring this?Why do you keep bringing up Buddhism? Do you think I'm some sort of buddhist? I don't give 2 shits about how much of your version of buddhist philosophy you think I seem to have understood I am not a buddhist. I merely respect buddhism more than christianity for reasons I have stated over and over. You're just being wilfully ignorant trying to spin this topic around as if I was attacking Christianity as a form of spiritual practise rather than an organised religion in the context of human history, culture and sociology. Christianity has brought so much pain and suffering to people throughout the world. People have destroyed entire civilisation in the name of jesus. That is what I am criticising. Just man the fuck up and accept this is the state of affairs in christianity. The same mentality that drove people to burn others for their beliefs is still largely there and the list i posted in my first post is a testimony to the sheer hypocrisy The only thing that has kept that 'burn the witch' mentality at bay are the implications that the age of rationalism has thankfully established. Without those, given their way, christians would still be going bananas.Quote: Oh, so now you agree? Well that's a step forward. Again. No one has been talking about what is better, I already established that. I was merely talking abut what you just mentioned and furthermore agreed with... so yeah. It is not a secret i prefer buddhism. Take it as you will. Thing is, no amount of thousands of poors taken care of compares to the sheer amount of people tortured, murdered and defiled by the inquisition. It can't compete with the numbers of people wiped from a civilisation in the name of jesus by the conquistadors. A little charity work for the stage of the world doesn't correct what has been done so easily, because what has been done are terrible terrible crimes against humanity. But now it's done. And it's in the past. But christianity could at the very least take this chance to regain some respect and change their insistent and elitist traits, but nooooo.... Quote: The church was formally established a good 300 years after christ, right? Btw that is very strange to me, but that's a different story. A spiritual world-view that ignores the wrongs of a spiritual organisation by calling it forgiveness? You can have your peer-inflicted desperate spiritual experience, but you enjoyed that rush so much that you have justified corruption as a tolerable side-effect? Dude, seriously... Just...wow.
-------------------- ![]() "Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions." "So you believe in intensions?" "No. I believe in being genuine." Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/18/13 02:22 PM)
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i don't respect religions that place themselves above others and damage their followers to perpetuate their suffering and project them onto others intrusively.
your sentences contradicted each other in the very sense of time and general sense. Concerning my own sentences, you're just trying to interpret your way to a point using sophistry
This just proves what i've been telling you all along
when i point to proof I get a lot of heat as you can see.
