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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Provocation?
    #1791190 - 08/08/03 07:51 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Was this really neccessary?


I dont think so...


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791204 - 08/08/03 08:07 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Too bad.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791238 - 08/08/03 08:34 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Let's summarize....

Soldiers approach building....

Occupants of building fire shots......

Soldiers blow up building.....

Assholes in building die.




Sounds about right to me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
Loc: Crackerville, Michigan U...
Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791248 - 08/08/03 08:41 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

you used too many words "Too bad" about summed it up with minimal effort.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1791252 - 08/08/03 08:44 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, but now instead of clicking on the link, people can read my post and know just what happened.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleInnvertigo
Vote Libertarian!!
Male

Registered: 02/09/01
Posts: 16,296
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Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791255 - 08/08/03 08:45 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

good point.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791272 - 08/08/03 09:04 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So in a period when Hamas have been observing the cease fire as requested the Israeli's decide they just have to go in with their tanks and arrest these two people. Its provocation. The Israelis seem to have no interest in peace whatsoever.

Edit: Anyway both of you failed to answer the question I asked. Was this neccessary?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (08/08/03 09:06 AM)


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791292 - 08/08/03 09:23 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

You know I get so sick of hearing this kind of BS. Both sides have plenty of blame in what has gone on over there. This Israelis go after known terrorists, they shoot at them, and the Israelis kill them. The only provocation was the people shooting at soldiers. They have a right to defend themselves. I do agree though, that the Israelis may be able to do more for peace. I am not to sure though that it will matter. They released over 300 prisoners and the Palestinians just bitched about it saying it wasn't enough. I don't know if there will ever be peace in the region.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791297 - 08/08/03 09:25 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

When did a cease-fire come to mean you don't arrest people?

I was under the impression cease-fire meant this....

Main Entry: cease-fire
Pronunciation: 'sEs-'fIr
Function: noun
Date: 1859
1 : a military order to cease firing
2 : a suspension of active hostilities

The soldiers (according to the article), did not fire first.
Also, I wasn't aware walking up to a building to arrest or search, was "active hostilities".

Are you suggesting that a cease-fire means leave people alone no matter what they are up to?

Necessary?
All we have to go by is the article, so using it.....
Yes. It sounds as if they were acting on a tip, which SEEMS to have been a decent one as the occupants opened fire when perhaps (?) just opening the door would have sufficed. Secondary explosions occured. While they may have been from cooking gas, the use of the term "several explosions" indicates the presence of a bit more than that.

So yeah, from the info in that article, sounds like it was necessary.


Quote:

The Israelis seem to have no interest in peace whatsoever.




Do you know who these people were?
Do you know if they had a history of blowing things up?
Do you know if tips came in suggesting these people might have been planning an attack?

Perhaps, and who knows why this could be possible, the Israelis have an interest in not being blown up? Who'd have thought it.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791303 - 08/08/03 09:29 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Why did the Israelis have to even be there in the first place? I mean anyone can see that Israelis going into arrest palestinians has a chance of provoking an end to the cease fire. If you choose to deny that then you are a fool as far as Im concerned.

And lets not forget the only source we have that the Palestinians shot first is the Israeli army....

Edit:
Quote:

Perhaps, and who knows why this could be possible, the Israelis have an interest in not being blown up? Who'd have thought it.




Well they are fucking stupid then arent they because after this unneccesary little excercise it looks like they've managed to get Hamas to call an end to the ceasefire. At least then they can justify their wall and settlements though so its not all bad is it?


--------------------
Always Smi2le


Edited by GazzBut (08/08/03 09:31 AM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791358 - 08/08/03 09:59 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Why did the Israelis have to even be there in the first place?


I don't know. I'm not privy to the info they military commanders have. Are you? Or are you saying no matter what info they had, they should not have been there?


Quote:

I mean anyone can see that Israelis going into arrest palestinians has a chance of provoking an end to the cease fire.



See above.


Quote:

If you choose to deny that then you are a fool as far as Im concerned.



Taking up insults now are you? I've been making an effort not to do just that. Guess it was wasted on you.


Quote:

And lets not forget the only source we have that the Palestinians shot first is the Israeli army....


True, but have you heard different anywhere?


Quote:

Well they are fucking stupid then arent they because after this unneccesary little excercise it looks like they've managed to get Hamas to call an end to the ceasefire.



Perhaps the damage done by the attempted search is far less than the damage that may have occured had they not. Not being there, neither you or I know that.


Quote:

At least then they can justify their wall and settlements though so its not all bad is it?



The justification for the wall has been there for years. The settlements are foolish under the current circumstances.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791413 - 08/08/03 10:28 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I don't know. I'm not privy to the info they military commanders have. Are you? Or are you saying no matter what info they had, they should not have been there?




You are implying that the men who were in the building were about to launch a terrorist attack on Israel arent you?
Maybe they werent what then?

Quote:

Taking up insults now are you? I've been making an effort not to do just that. Guess it was wasted on you.




Explain to me how that is an insult? I just offered my opinion, I didnt realise you were so sensitive Luvvie.

Quote:

The justification for the wall has been there for years. The settlements are foolish under the current circumstances.




Your logic is flawed. This wall will encroach on Palestinian land but that is justified, The settlements will also encroach on Palestinian land but they are not justified? Doesnt make sense.


--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791432 - 08/08/03 10:35 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

The fact that they shot at the Israelis would indicate that they broke the cease fire, don't you think. Your logic is flawed. The multiple secondary explosions may indicate that they had bombs with them. I think that these dead guys should receive the criticism in this case, not Israel.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791464 - 08/08/03 10:47 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You are implying that the men who were in the building were about to launch a terrorist attack on Israel arent you?
Maybe they werent what then?



Not implying anything. I'm saying directly, neither you nor I know what brought the soldiers to that house. Possibly the soldiers were being assholes, possibly they went there on a valid tip with a valid reason.

I don't know, so I'm not going to get worked up over it without more info.

You, IMO, seem all to anxious to assign some nefarious reason based on a woefully incomplete story. Perhaps you should wait for the facts without jumping to conclusions.


Quote:

Explain to me how that is an insult?


Calling someone a fool because they see things differently than you isn't an insult? Sensitive? Nope, I just seem to notice it more now that I'm making an attempt not to do so.


Quote:

Your logic is flawed. This wall will encroach on Palestinian land but that is justified, The settlements will also encroach on Palestinian land but they are not justified? Doesnt make sense.



No, your understanding of the logic is what's flawed. The wall is a defensive measure. The settlements are a stupid move during peace negotiations, perhaps you could even call it an offensive measure.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
Posts: 4,770
Loc: London UK
Last seen: 1 month, 2 days
Re: Provocation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791479 - 08/08/03 10:52 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You, IMO, seem all to anxious to assign some nefarious reason based on a woefully incomplete story. Perhaps you should wait for the facts without jumping to conclusions.




Granted. But you can hardly say you have taken the middle ground either!



--------------------
Always Smi2le


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,186
Loc: Lost In Space
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1791811 - 08/08/03 12:51 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

GazzBut said:
Quote:

Granted. But you can hardly say you have taken the middle ground either!



Really? This...
"Possibly the soldiers were being assholes, possibly they went there on a valid tip with a valid reason.

I don't know, so I'm not going to get worked up over it without more info. "
sounds about as middle ground as can be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Offlineololiuqui
LSD-25

Registered: 08/07/03
Posts: 266
Last seen: 13 years, 7 months
Re: Provocation? Try Boycot ! [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1791969 - 08/08/03 01:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

here, here


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OfflineCornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)

Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 13 years, 4 months
Re: Provocation? [Re: shakta]
    #1792434 - 08/08/03 04:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shakta said:
You know I get so sick of hearing this kind of BS. Both sides have plenty of blame in what has gone on over there.


I agree. It seems to me from what I've heard that many Israels still oppose a Palestinian state, and aren't happy with the peace deal that Bush is pushing (I say tough shit). I think they're willing to do anything to fire up the Palestinians so that the deal doesn't go through. Just my opinion.


--------------------


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Offlineshakta
Infidel
Registered: 06/03/03
Posts: 2,633
Last seen: 12 years, 10 months
Re: Provocation? [Re: Cornholio]
    #1792450 - 08/08/03 04:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I tend to agree with you to a certain extent. The hard liners in Israel would just as soon wipe out the Palestenians, while Hamas' reason for existance is killing Jews. Hopefully cooler heads will prevail. This Abbas guy seems reasonable enough to deal with. If the situation ever does get settled the terrorists will have one less thing to bitch about.


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Offlinejimsuzo
I am the Eggman

Registered: 08/14/02
Posts: 269
Loc: Land of the not-so-free
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
Re: Provocation? [Re: GazzBut]
    #1793256 - 08/08/03 07:56 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It was only necessary to allow the insanity to continue.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

ISRAELIS: We will not stop terrorizing you, nor return any land, until you stop terrorizing us.

PALESTINIANS: We will not stop terrorizing you until our land is returned.

Adbusters


--------------------
There are roughly nine galaxies for every person alive on the planet today. Each of these galaxies has a billion suns, give or take the odd hundred million


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