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OfflineGernBlanston
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Help me come to grips with something.
    #1783403 - 08/06/03 12:19 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm having trouble articulating this internally, so please excuse me if I ramble a bit.

I am going through a bit of an anti-people phase at the moment. In the last 2 years, I have become very involved with political and social issues, and have recently become involved with political activism on a local, grassroots level.

The more I learn, the more scared I become. I'm not talking about simply the politics in the US, partisan politics, crappy economy, etc. I am an internalizer. I have to know - no.. understand - the reasons behind why things are occurring; to know the 'facts' or events or people involved is not enough. I need to grok motivations, big picture stuff - I even need to understand my own motivations for needing to know!

I am scared because of the prevailing sense of apathy in the world. There are, obviously, people who care; who want to understand. I am beginning to feel as though it really doesn't matter what I do, or what others do or say to attempt to open the eyes of the world to the myriad of issues facing it. You can lead a horse to water, and all that.

What am I trying to ask... ? Does anyone else deal with this feeling that our society - our species, not just our country - is doomed and there's nothing we can do about it? Is this sort of frustration natural? Or at least not unique to my whacked out self?

If you do deal with these kinds of feelings, how do you incorporate the dichotomy of wanting to do what's right and knowing that what you do doesn't really matter into your patterns? Does it work for you? Why do you think so or not?

Is this vague and esoteric enough? Like I say, I'm sorry for not being able to express this issue in a more concrete fashion.. but if any of y'all have any fucking clue what I'm talking about, I'd love to hear from you.

Gern


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783471 - 08/06/03 12:40 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Please believe me when I say this: I know exactly what you mean.

You sound like an INTP! If you know anything about MBTI personality types, are you? If not, you should find out!

I'm an INTP too. Apparently we are less than 3% of the general population. We think very abstractly, we think in systems. We are MUCH more logical than emotional, and we use this impartial approach to make connections in our minds.

I know how you feel about society, I feel the same way. There are just too many people who seem like they don't want to know anything they "don't have to", you know what I mean? They are oblivious to the idea that all knowledge is useful.

I think it's just the way our society is structured. Most of the blame (IMHO) falls on our education system - not in it's failures, but it's success. It was only ever really designed to pruduce good workers who aren't likely to question authority. Our school system is what maintains the "status quo" so nicely.

You probably feel like you're going insane, eh? Like how can you see this, and these problems, so clearly, when everyone around you seems blind and unwilling to learn.

How do I deal with this...feeling? Personally, I've made the decision that purhaps it's my purpose here, you know, to help people learn. I started with my friends. I managed to (fate, it seems, is not just a word) find a most amazing group of friends. They, like me, want to learn. I've already taught them a few things, and learned more than a few things myself. Seeing people around me, thinking like I do, with the same hopes and aspirations as me, is what keeps me going.

Because I know, now, that it's worth fighting for! You see things better than most people, does that sound like a curse? I think it's a gift, and a gift needs to be used.

So use it for good, eh! Teach anything you know to anyone who will listen. Help people become less dependant, and more indipendant. It takes time, sometimes years, but you can help a person "see the light", so to speak.

Hope that helps!

ps: yes i was rolling when i typed this  :smile: 


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Offlineneutralizer
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Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: trendal]
    #1783500 - 08/06/03 12:51 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm INFP.  I understand exactly what you're talking about Gern.  There is only so much we can each do, I guess we're lucky if it is enough to save us from destruction.  If not, well maybe at least it will come after we are able to move to other planets (well, I am a dreamer :smile:) and that way if some of us earthlings decide to blow up this planet at least not all of us will be effected.


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: neutralizer]
    #1783502 - 08/06/03 12:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Ahh, another in that lonely 5%  :smile:


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InvisibleJared
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: trendal]
    #1783531 - 08/06/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I'm borderline INTP/ENTP.. and what you described in your post rings pretty close to home.. :P

whereabouts are you Trendal?


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: Jared]
    #1783534 - 08/06/03 01:03 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

SW Ontario  :wink:


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: trendal]
    #1783537 - 08/06/03 01:05 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Jesus.. thanks, guys.  I can't even explain how just knowing that there are a couple of other folks who get what I'm feeling and why...  Yah - sometimes I feel a little, well, Quixotic, to put it mildly; and I'm including the not-so-positive insinuations along with the more noble ones.

I'm not familiar with the MBTI personality types - I'll go do a bit of poking around right now.  According to the Keirsey test (if you're familiar with that), I'm an "Idealist / Healer".  I would imagine that we're very similar in that regard.

Maybe part of my issue is that I don't surround myself with the same type of people.  I very much used to, but having moved a long ways from home, I've left a lot of them in my past - and that makes me sad.  But that's really a topic for a different board :smile:


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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


Edited by GernBlanston (08/06/03 01:08 AM)


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InvisibleJellric
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783550 - 08/06/03 01:09 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

I have to know - no.. understand - the reasons behind why things are occurring; to know the 'facts' or events or people involved is not enough. I need to grok motivations, big picture stuff




That pretty much sums up my attitude from an early age. I would be in Sunday school class and was the one always asking questions about what we were being taught instead of just passively being spoonfead other people's morals. Faith was ok, but knowledge was cool!! I mean faith is what you rely on until you can figure out what the hell is going on. And that's an ongoing process.

The frustration you're feeling is quite natural. Everyone has a gift. I can vividly recall watching Michael Jordan in games and look at his face and know exactly what he's thinking at that moment, "Damn, if I can see what needs to be done, why can't they??" But they can't see it like he can because they don't have his gift!

You want insight into the human condition on a big-picture scale. But you cannot affect reality from that level. Just remember, big things are made of small things. You have to find your satisfaction in small changes. All natural growth occurs slowly. Anything happening quickly is inherantly unstable.

One thing you might ask yourself is ,"Is the arena in which I have chosen to affect social change the proper one for my temperment/personality?" "Are there other areas I might be able to employ my gifts in more effectively?" Don't be afraid to question that. If what you are doing is what you are meant to be doing, the questions will only strengthen your hand.

I'm not trying to steer you away from what you're doing, just reminding you there are many paths leading to the same place.


--------------------
I AM what Willis was talkin' bout.


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: Jellric]
    #1783639 - 08/06/03 01:32 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Jellric said:

I would be in Sunday school class and was the one always asking questions about what we were being taught instead of just passively being spoonfead other people's morals. Faith was ok, but knowledge was cool!! I mean faith is what you rely on until you can figure out what the hell is going on.



Sounds exactly like my sunday school classes!  They (the sisters) wouldn't even let me take my first communion at 6 becuase I was "a little too inquisitive".

Quote:

One thing you might ask yourself is ,"Is the arena in which I have chosen to affect social change the proper one for my temperment/personality?" "Are there other areas I might be able to employ my gifts in more effectively?" Don't be afraid to question that. If what you are doing is what you are meant to be doing, the questions will only strengthen your hand.




This is also an outstanding point.  It is easy to get caught up in the immediacy of situations and ideas that seem to have such great importance, and as such, easy to lose sight of the process.  Perspective - that's the reason that I'm a member at the Shroomery in the first place.  It can be a bit hard to come by, and amazingly easy to lose :frown:

Oh - and I just did my personality profile at 3 different sites online and came up INTP on all 3.  And this description of iNTp personalities is absolutely incredible:
http://typelogic.com/intp.html
So accurate as to nearly give me the creeps. 


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: Jellric]
    #1783652 - 08/06/03 01:36 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I mean faith is what you rely on until you can figure out what the hell is going on. And that's an ongoing process.

Excellent observation!!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783694 - 08/06/03 01:48 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Introverts, like us, and especially strong introverts, have a very easy time losing the connection between their inner and outter worlds. If you surround youself with people who you have to hide too much of yourself from (if you know what I mean :wink:) because they aren't of like-mind...it can become VERY easy to withdraw too much into your relatively safer, MUCH more structured and dependable, inner world.

I've gone through periods in life where I felt very isolated, alone. It was always the friends I chose, though. At some point I had to get over trying to be frinds with the "cool people" who were, usually, not of my mind :wink:

But when I found friends who I didn't have to hide anything from (well ok, not much :wink:) it restored my connection to the outside world. I think this is what you'll need to do. Trust me! It will help you more than you can probably imagine  :smirk:

We're a VERY adaptable group, when it comes to others. We can adapt, by changing our exterior image, to just about ANYONE who wishes to be our friend. Are you like this too?

If so, know that being adaptable IS better than rigid...but if you adapt to the wrong person, you have to change your outside image too much.

again, hope that helps  :smirk:


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: trendal]
    #1783697 - 08/06/03 01:50 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I too am highly anti-social. This really sucks because I am in a job that requires me to be social. as a matter of fact, its in the title of the job! 'Social' Worker.

Sometimes people disgust me so much I want to hijack a plane and crash it into a large building. People are slow, and stupid. They care about things I think are pointless. They are destroying themselves like animals.

The first step to combatting these attitudes is to realize they are not constructive. If that doesnt convince you to change your feelings, try thinking about what the world would be like without anyone on it but yourself. No buildings you didn't build, no technology you didn't invent, no art you didn't create...

Oh yeah and whoever said "be satisfied with small changes" was on to something. Unless you are a global entity (like a govt or corp), you cant effect things on a global level. You can either A) spend years building yourself up to a global power and probably get corrupted in the process, or b) help the people around you in small ways. Think macrobiotically. helping and teaching have "ripple effects"!!!!

there is a lot of joy in simply teaching someone how to do something new. Or changing an ignorant opinion by talking it out with the person in a civil manner.

anyway, I'm rambling so I'll quit, but its nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles with these dark feelings. Hang in there!!!


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: DoctorJ]
    #1783732 - 08/06/03 01:58 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

there is a lot of joy in simply teaching someone how to do something new. Or changing an ignorant opinion by talking it out with the person in a civil manner.

Nothing makes me happier than to hear someone say, "Oh, trendal taught me..." I get the best feeling, knowing that I've helped...even if it is in such a small way.  :smirk:


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OfflineGernBlanston
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: trendal]
    #1783862 - 08/06/03 02:41 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I agree wholeheartedly. I think I've gone through different phases at different times in my life where I've attempted to do just that - to teach; to change my world one opinion at a time...

Hell - I went through a period of time where my entire goal in life was to make as many people as humanly possible belly laugh each day.

I've gone through periods in life where I felt very isolated, alone. It was always the friends I chose, though.

I'm married to someone who is VERY different from me, and so it is easy to feel isolated at times, even when I'm sitting next to someone who I've chosen to be a life partner. Now that is something that can make you question your sanity...

I have a very small, very tight group of friends who, circumstances being what they are, live 650 miles away from me. When I do get to be with them, it is SO good for the brain. It takes almost no time to remember who I am and what I'm here for and why I love people and why they love me.

We're a VERY adaptable group, when it comes to others. We can adapt, by changing our exterior image, to just about ANYONE who wishes to be our friend. Are you like this too?

Absolutely. But with that comes a difficulty in making real friends. I get along with everyone, and can fit in anywhere that I try to... But they're not friends - they're buddies; acquantances. That's part of my question, I think. Is it a natural extension of my personality type that I don't let myself form a connection with 'average' people? Is it that there's no connection there to be formed, or that we're just so alien to one another that the genomes just can't quite match up?

anyway, I'm rambling so I'll quit, but its nice to know I'm not the only one who struggles with these dark feelings. Hang in there!!!

Zactly. It's incredibly nice to know... And yah - they do feel a bit 'dark' sometimes.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn


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InvisibletrendalM
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783925 - 08/06/03 03:09 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Yes, I have the same problem  :confused:

I find that, because I can be friendly with anyone, a lot of people seem to come and go from my life rather quickly. Lots of people seem to have qualities of a REALLY GOOD friend right off the bat, but only because I've changed my idea of what qualifies good according to their personality. As soon as we get to know eachother, I find someone who is most definately NOT a very compatible friend for me  :smirk:

Is it a natural extension of my personality type that I don't let myself form a connection with 'average' people? Is it that there's no connection there to be formed, or that we're just so alien to one another that the genomes just can't quite match up?

I often wonder: are we set aside? Or do we set ourselves aside? Personally I think we're just a little too "different" for the "average person". Most people are more alike than they know, but some people are less alike than most know. Most people will have trouble following one of my more abstracted thoughts, but I can easily converse with the "select few" friends I have who share the same method of thinking/speaking. I would think that if I was just plain "crazy", that group of like-minded people shouldn't understand me. Either that or we're all crazy. I'm not sure about myself...but I think most people are pretty sane  :wink:

I think there is a connection to be formed...if the effort is put in on both sides. But I also think it's a natural aspect of my "type" of personality to be fairly incompatible with most people on anything more than a superficial level. To them, yeah, we are just too alien :smirk:

I don't have a hard time understanding most people, but most people seem to have a hard time understanding me. Oh well, just part of the price of being a little more unique than "normal"  :wink: 


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OfflineStrumpling
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1783930 - 08/06/03 03:12 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Scumbags will fall - we will prevail!


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

Registered: 10/15/02
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1784238 - 08/06/03 06:59 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Know that you can really only change yourself and hope your prescence helps others change? If the actions of others upset you know You have the power to not get upset? Dont attach to the problems of the world. See them for what they are and attempt to change them just dont overly invest yourself emotionally..maybe thats an ego game?

Remember that what we perceive from our very close up perspective as a chaotic mess may seem from a distance like a beautiful unfolding?Im talking time here not just distance..

Peace


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Always Smi2le


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Offlineneutralizer
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784442 - 08/06/03 10:46 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Trendal said it pretty well.

I have a really really hard time forming anything more than a superficial relationship with most people, because if I were to reach below that surface we wouldn't be compatible.  So I stopped trying for a couple years, I'm getting a little better about that now.  Like Trendal said, it seems like we're just too different from the "average" person.  I can't stand to let myself get caught up in superficial shit.  More and more I'm seeing the United States as a mire of self-defeating attitudes and beliefs and of closed-mindedness that is bringing this country down, from the inside moreso than the outside [like "terrorism," wars, etc].  The problem with the US is internal, not external.  It's the attitudes people have.

Have you ever heard of the Indigo Children?  I think that we all probably fit into that category pretty well.  I see the biggest link between all of us is our unwillingness to buy into the social/political systems that have so far not done too well other than to make a few people really, really rich and "powerful" and to make everyone else brainwashed, unquestioning peons.  Sounds like you guys feel similarly, although I personally may be a bit more extreme in my views :wink:

Supposedly us Indigo Children are supposed to bring about change to the systems, or at least prepare the way for some changes.  Raise the vibration of the earth, I've heard it put like that once.  I can definately see how we are supposed to be the ones to do it.  We are against all the "bad" systems, we just have to get organized and do something about it.  But what do to?  How to turn on other people?  How to organize ourselves?  How can we help other people when we have such a hard time relating to them and forming meaningful relationships with them, because they are caught up in the petty issues that our society feels are important [clothes, money, sex, popularity, just to name a few things that people worry about instead of worrying about things that matter]?


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


Edited by neutralizer (08/06/03 10:54 AM)


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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: neutralizer]
    #1784450 - 08/06/03 10:52 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

Perhaps you need to change yourself internally so you can accept the problems in the world with good grace? I dont wish this to sound like a criticism. I try to take my own advice but it doesnt always work!

Peace


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Always Smi2le


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Offlineneutralizer
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Registered: 06/17/03
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Re: Help me come to grips with something. [Re: GazzBut]
    #1784455 - 08/06/03 10:55 AM (13 years, 10 months ago)

I can accept that we are in a bad place because of the problems in the world, but unless we are going to move to a better place from there, it just frustrates me. Recognizing that we are all in a bad place, then ducking our heads back in the sand doesn't do any good =\


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There are things known, and there are things unknown, and in between are the doors - Morrison


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