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Invisiblethe alchem1st
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Exteriorization of the Senses
    #14086565 - 03/08/11 12:59 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I first became aware of the concept of “exteriorization” while reading August Strindberg’s Inferno, an autobiographical novel which details the playwright’s involvement with the occult.  During a bout of what he describes as “perverted affection,” Strindberg longs to be united with his wife (with whom he is currently going through a divorce) and their child.  He decides that the best way to attain this goal is to perform a black magick ritual in which he curses the child to fall ill.  “Small children are always falling ill for one reason or another,” he says.

Shortly afterward, Strindberg is informed by letter that his children from a different marriage have been admitted to the hospital.  As a cautionary tale to the reader, he says the following:

Quote:

In the spring, just at the time when I was so much oppressed by my own reverses as well as those of my companion, I had a letter from the children of my first marriage, telling me that they had been seriously ill and had had to go to hospital.  When I compared the date they mentioned with the date of my experiment in bewitchment I was seized with horror.  By playing with those mysterious powers, out of pure folly I had given the reins to my evil desires, but they, guided by the hand of the Unseen, had struck at my own heart.

I am not trying to excuse myself.  I am only asking the reader to to bear these facts in mind, should he ever be tempted to practise magic, particularly the kind known as bewitchment, or witchcraft in the true sense of the word.  De Rochas has shown this to be a reality.




Strindberg is referring to the French parapsychologist, Albert de Rochas, whose seminal work The Exteriorisation of Sensibility is cited in the book as a footnote at the end of the second paragraph quoted above.  Despite a prolific career in the French military (at one point rising to the rank of battalion commander), de Rochas is most well known for his study of parapsychology and the occult, having dedicated his life to an attempt to interpret occult phenomena through the lens of empiricism.  Among the concepts that de Rochas explored were hypnosis, telekinesis, reincarnation, past life regression, and the effect of music on human emotions.

It was through working with patients as a hypnotist that de Rochas documented the phenomenon he first described as “externalisation of sensibility,” meaning that the subject is able to sense stimuli at a distance, such as feeling pain if a certain spot is pinched away from the body.



It’s interesting to note that one of the core concepts of the Church of Scientology is a practice known as “exteriorization,” during which a human subject functions independently of the physical body as a thetan (which they define as “an aware of awareness unit”).  Despite the bizarre language, this concept seems to be consistent with de Rochas’ findings.

The truth is that throughout all of history, occultists have realized that within the human animal, there exists an innate ability to “sense” objects and dimensions outside of the physical body.  Our technology has developed to the point where this phenomenon can now be induced immediately through the use of chemical agents.  That our senses expand far beyond the limits of our earthbound bodies is quite obvious, as the phenomenon of exteriorization is an intrinsic part of the human experience, but it is difficult to describe such events in words, as experiences outside of the body are far removed from the language of everyday reality, and therefore often go unnoticed.

Quote:

If you get into these spaces at all, you must forget about them when you come back.  You must forget you’re omnipotent and omniscient and take the game seriously so you’ll engage in sex, have children, and participate in the whole human scenario.  When you come back from a deep LSD trip or a K trip — or coma or psychosis — there’s always this extraterrestrial feeling.  You have to read the directions in the glove compartment so you can run the human vehicle once more.  After I first took acid in the tank and traveled to distant dimensions, I cried when I came back and found myself trapped in a body.  I didn’t even know whose body it was at first.  It was the sadness of reentry.




- Dr. John C. Lilly

In waking life, one’s immediate consciousness seems to arise primarily through the senses of the physical body (of which we now know there are far more than 5).  Typically, we think of these senses as being separate, but in reality, we are experiencing, or “sensing,” each of our physical and psychic senses simultaneously, coming together as a unified whole in the form of the present moment.

However, few would argue that the vessel through which one acts in the dream world (astral plane) is of the same manner as the biologically determined animal body in which he is imprisoned during his waking life.  If not, then what is the nature of said astral body, and what is its relation to the concept of exteriorization?

In dreams, one often survives events that would immediately result in death during waking consciousness.  Likewise, one often finds himself performing feats that defy the physical laws he had known previously.  Nevertheless, this does not suggest that the astral plane is necessarily “non-physical.”  Consciousness of astral realms (an exteriorization of the senses from our “physical” bodies, attained through dream and trance states) appears to be a mode of sensory perception different from the physical universe we identify with during our waking consciousness only in the sense of modified physical laws, rather than the absence of such.

We must consider the implications of unconscious psychic material within this framework.  The psychoanalyst Sigmund Freud was the first to elaborate on the concept of the “unconscious mind,” which he said consists of active psychic material which is not permitted into our consciousness for one reason or another.  To put it simply, the unconscious is anything that one is not consciously aware of at any given moment.  The vast majority of our psychic activity resides within the unconscious.  According to Freud, the physical laws of the universes one experiences through dream states are arranged in such a way that the unconscious is able to communicate symbolically with the conscious mind (and occasionally have direct communion).

Having determined that our immediate consciousness of the present moment is the totality of our perpetually active physical and psychic senses, we see that this has tremendous implications as to the scope of the unconscious.  If, as we have seen, our senses are able to “exteriorize” themselves beyond our physical bodies and well into the myriad universes which manifest themselves on the astral plane, it follows that the unconscious and the depth of one’s perception are boundless and potentially infinite.

Quote:

This is an essential experience of any mystical realization.  You die to your flesh and are born into your spirit.  You identify with the consciousness and life of which your body is but the vehicle.  You die to the vehicle and become identified in your consciousness with that of which the vehicle is but the carrier.  That is the God.  Behind all these manifestations is the one radiance, which shines through all things.




- Joseph Campbell


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14088306 - 03/08/11 06:51 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

interesting post.  There is definitely a process of exteriorization that occurs in spirituality.  It's like, more and more it feels like your body is inside you, rather than the other way around, and that external reality is you.

it definitely does increase awareness of the dream state, i had my first successful OBE a few months ago actually.  It still wasn't the astral plane proper, I think there is still a higher plane in the dream world which is more objective and shared.  Still very interesting though, and something I very much want to pursue.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14088749 - 03/08/11 08:09 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Look up Keith Barry and his presentation on TED.com
It's called mind magic or something like that.
I think its related to what you're talking about here.


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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14088990 - 03/08/11 08:43 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the alchem1st said:
The truth is that throughout all of history, occultists have realized that within the human animal, there exists an innate ability to “sense” objects and dimensions outside of the physical body. 




Interesting post.  Do you think that governments have a team of people expressly trained for this sort of remote viewing?


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Offlineg00ru
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher]
    #14089583 - 03/08/11 10:22 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

maybe, but their methods seem mainly designed at keeping people's energy in the lowest three chakras, and sometimes appealing to the heart in times of extreme manipulation


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14090707 - 03/09/11 02:21 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the alchem1st said:
It was through working with patients as a hypnotist that de Rochas documented the phenomenon he first described as “externalisation of sensibility,” meaning that the subject is able to sense stimuli at a distance, such as feeling pain if a certain spot is pinched away from the body.


Did the subject witness that spot being pinched?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
The truth is that throughout all of history, occultists have realized that within the human animal, there exists an innate ability to “sense” objects and dimensions outside of the physical body.


What do you mean by dimensions? It's well known that humans can sense objects that are outside of their physical bodies, so what?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
Our technology has developed to the point where this phenomenon can now be induced immediately through the use of chemical agents.


Are you talking about consciousness-altering drugs? Those have been around since before humans developed sophisticated technology.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
That our senses expand far beyond the limits of our earthbound bodies is quite obvious, as the phenomenon of exteriorization is an intrinsic part of the human experience...


I don't think I've ever had an experience of being another object.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
...but it is difficult to describe such events in words, as experiences outside of the body are far removed from the language of everyday reality, and therefore often go unnoticed.


I've had several experiences that are difficult to describe in words, but none of them involved being another object.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
However, few would argue that the vessel through which one acts in the dream world (astral plane) is of the same manner as the biologically determined animal body in which he is imprisoned during his waking life.  If not, then what is the nature of said astral body, and what is its relation to the concept of exteriorization?


Who said that dreams are another "world", and who said astral bodies exist and travel around in this world? Do you have any evidence for this?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
In dreams, one often survives events that would immediately result in death during waking consciousness.  Likewise, one often finds himself performing feats that defy the physical laws he had known previously.  Nevertheless, this does not suggest that the astral plane is necessarily “non-physical.”


Neither does it suggest that it even exists.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
Consciousness of astral realms (an exteriorization of the senses from our “physical” bodies, attained through dream and trance states) appears to be a mode of sensory perception different from the physical universe we identify with during our waking consciousness...


What do you mean by 'mode of sensory perception', and how is it different than the physical universe we identify with? Are you suggesting that people are in a different universe than this one when they have exteriorization experiences?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If, as we have seen, our senses are able to “exteriorize” themselves beyond our physical bodies and well into the myriad universes which manifest themselves on the astral plane, it follows that the unconscious and the depth of one’s perception are boundless and potentially infinite.


There is no evidence that suggests that people can travel to other universes, nor is there evidence for the existence of the "astral plane"; I'd like to see more evidence for the "externalization of sensibility" phenomenon.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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Invisiblethe alchem1st
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: Poid]
    #14091506 - 03/09/11 09:29 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Poid said:
Quote:

the alchem1st said:
It was through working with patients as a hypnotist that de Rochas documented the phenomenon he first described as “externalisation of sensibility,” meaning that the subject is able to sense stimuli at a distance, such as feeling pain if a certain spot is pinched away from the body.


Did the subject witness that spot being pinched?




I'm unsure as to the precise sequence of events, as I have been unable to find an English translation of the book in question, but I doubt it as one's eyes are rarely open during a hypnotic induction, and one is even more rarely aware of the "external world" during such an event.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
The truth is that throughout all of history, occultists have realized that within the human animal, there exists an innate ability to “sense” objects and dimensions outside of the physical body.


What do you mean by dimensions? It's well known that humans can sense objects that are outside of their physical bodies, so what?





Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If, as we have seen, our senses are able to “exteriorize” themselves beyond our physical bodies and well into the myriad universes which manifest themselves on the astral plane, it follows that the unconscious and the depth of one’s perception are boundless and potentially infinite.





Quote:

Quote:

the alchem1st said:
Our technology has developed to the point where this phenomenon can now be induced immediately through the use of chemical agents.


Are you talking about consciousness-altering drugs? Those have been around since before humans developed sophisticated technology.




The experience of exteriorization, as I understand it, is most faithfully reproduced through the use of dissociative drugs such as ketamine, which was synthesized only within the past 50 years.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
That our senses expand far beyond the limits of our earthbound bodies is quite obvious, as the phenomenon of exteriorization is an intrinsic part of the human experience...


I don't think I've ever had an experience of being another object.




If you reread that same paragraph, you'll see that I said that humans have an innate ability to "sense" objects, not to become them.  However, the phenomenon that you're describing, that is, "being another object," has been exhaustively documented by users of dissociatives, salvia in particular.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
However, few would argue that the vessel through which one acts in the dream world (astral plane) is of the same manner as the biologically determined animal body in which he is imprisoned during his waking life.  If not, then what is the nature of said astral body, and what is its relation to the concept of exteriorization?


Who said that dreams are another "world", and who said astral bodies exist and travel around in this world? Do you have any evidence for this?




I refer to the plane on which one experiences the various dream worlds as "the astral plane" for the sake of convenience, as that is how it's typically designated by those in the occult community.  I apply Hugh Everett's Many Worlds Interpretation of quantum physics to my study of dreams, meaning that I interpret my dreams to represent the experience of what are a potentially infinite number of possible universes with distinct physical laws manifesting themselves simultaneously and eternally.  Robert Anton Wilson proposed this same theory in the 1980s.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
In dreams, one often survives events that would immediately result in death during waking consciousness.  Likewise, one often finds himself performing feats that defy the physical laws he had known previously.  Nevertheless, this does not suggest that the astral plane is necessarily “non-physical.”


Neither does it suggest that it even exists.




If you've ever had a dream, then you agree with me that what I'm referring to as the astral plane exists.  Substitute whatever term you're most comfortable with.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
Consciousness of astral realms (an exteriorization of the senses from our “physical” bodies, attained through dream and trance states) appears to be a mode of sensory perception different from the physical universe we identify with during our waking consciousness...


What do you mean by 'mode of sensory perception', and how is it different than the physical universe we identify with? Are you suggesting that people are in a different universe than this one when they have exteriorization experiences?




I answered your first question immediately after the ellipsis you tacked on after "consciousness."  In response to your second question: yes.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If, as we have seen, our senses are able to “exteriorize” themselves beyond our physical bodies and well into the myriad universes which manifest themselves on the astral plane, it follows that the unconscious and the depth of one’s perception are boundless and potentially infinite.


There is no evidence that suggests that people can travel to other universes, nor is there evidence for the existence of the "astral plane"; I'd like to see more evidence for the "externalization of sensibility" phenomenon.




As an occultist, my own perception and experiences are my primary source of evidence, though these usually seem to be quickly vindicated by science.  As my interests lie in the performance of real magick rather than internet debate or acceptance and approval by the skeptic community, I allow myself the freedom to wander outside the shackles of strict empiricism.


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InvisiblePoid
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14091645 - 03/09/11 10:10 AM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

the alchem1st said:
I'm unsure as to the precise sequence of events, as I have been unable to find an English translation of the book in question, but I doubt it as one's eyes are rarely open during a hypnotic induction, and one is even more rarely aware of the "external world" during such an event.


Then I'm not going to take that as reliable evidence, I would like to see at least one more study on this phenomenon.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If, as we have seen, our senses are able to “exteriorize” themselves beyond our physical bodies and well into the myriad universes which manifest themselves on the astral plane, it follows that the unconscious and the depth of one’s perception are boundless and potentially infinite.


We haven't seen that our senses are able to do that; you never even provided any links for this "extoriorization" phenomenon.

Since you're new here, I feel like I should let you know that this is a debate forum, and it's expected that you back up your claims with evidence, especially if you're being asked to. If you don't provide evidence for your claims, then they will be dismissed as just another of the several unsupported claims that float around here.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
The experience of exteriorization, as I understand it, is most faithfully reproduced through the use of dissociative drugs such as ketamine, which was synthesized only within the past 50 years.


:lol:, so this is basically just a drug experience? And you believe that, when people experience these crazy things while on drugs, that they're not just fucked up on a drug but rather legitimately travelling to different dimensions and such?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If you reread that same paragraph, you'll see that I said that humans have an innate ability to "sense" objects, not to become them.


Well I feel like you're trying to express a different idea than literally sensing objects, because it is well known that humans sense objects. For example, as I type this sentence, I am sensing the keys on my keyboard, which are objects.

I think the idea you're trying to expressed is more adequately described as merely feeling sensations when objects other than your body are touched, or sensing things that touch objects other than your body as if they were an extension of your body; this is not the same thing as sensing objects.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
However, the phenomenon that you're describing, that is, "being another object," has been exhaustively documented by users of dissociatives, salvia in particular.


And do you think that these people actually become other objects, or do you think it's more likely that they're hallucinating?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
I refer to the plane on which one experiences the various dream worlds as "the astral plane" for the sake of convenience, as that is how it's typically designated by those in the occult community.


What is a "dream world"? Do you really think that dreams (which are nothing but random neural oscillations) occur elsewhere than physical reality? Do you really think that the brain can be transported to other universes?


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
...I interpret my dreams to represent the experience of what are a potentially infinite number of possible universes with distinct physical laws manifesting themselves simultaneously and eternally.


Yeah, everybody interprets dreams differently; there is no proof that we are transported to other dimensions with different physical laws when we are dreaming, dreams are nothing but random neural oscillations.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
If you've ever had a dream, then you agree with me that what I'm referring to as the astral plane exists.  Substitute whatever term you're most comfortable with.


I don't consider it a plane, or a world, I just consider dreams to be a sort of "reality simulation" created by our brains that is displayed to us while we're asleep, one that doesn't necessarily have to simulate reality accurately (which is why we can defy normal physical laws and such in dreams).


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
I answered your first question immediately after the ellipsis you tacked on after "consciousness."


No you didn't, you didn't define 'mode of sensory perception'; I'm not even sure what you mean by "different than the physical universe we identify with", in what way are you saying it's different? Different in that it's not identical to the physical universe we identify with? If you're suggesting that it's a different universe altogether, then I would like to see some evidence for this.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
...only in the sense of modified physical laws, rather than the absence of such.


Sure, we experience this sometimes in dreams, but that doesn't mean that dreams exist in another universe.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
In response to your second question: yes.


Evidence, please.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
As an occultist, my own perception and experiences are my primary source of evidence, though these usually seem to be quickly vindicated by science.


That's nice, but this is a debate forum, and your subjective evidence isn't accepted here.


Quote:

the alchem1st said:
As my interests lie in the performance of real magick rather than internet debate or acceptance and approval by the skeptic community, I allow myself the freedom to wander outside the shackles of strict empiricism.


So why did you post this in a debate forum? Did you know this is a debate forum before you decided to post this? Cuz that would be fuckin' weird.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


Edited by Poid (03/09/11 10:21 AM)


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: the alchem1st]
    #14092256 - 03/09/11 12:18 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

OP, you'll get much better reception for your ideas over in the Spirituality & Mysticism forum... as it stands this forum's primarily oriented towards reductionist materialism.


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher]
    #14092380 - 03/09/11 12:47 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You are just jealous because you have no paranormal powers. :yesnod:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14092389 - 03/09/11 12:48 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Says who?  :uptosomething:...:wizard:

Don't make me put a curse on ya!  :crankey:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher]
    #14092409 - 03/09/11 12:52 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You would be the fourth member to (attempt to) do that.


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: OrgoneConclusion] * 1
    #14092444 - 03/09/11 01:01 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You must have super-powerful anti-curse shields. :thirdeyeani:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.


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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14092460 - 03/09/11 01:04 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

I could have said something kinda mean about you living in a shack in Vegas with no steady romantic partner and how one of those curses must have worked, but I took the high(er) road.  :blueangel:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: Poid]
    #14092461 - 03/09/11 01:05 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Nah, it is just that that practitioners here are pathetically weak.


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher]
    #14092472 - 03/09/11 01:07 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

You did?

Steady romantic partner = money and emotion drain. Why do you think that when a person is killed, the prime suspect is always the spouse/lover?


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14092491 - 03/09/11 01:12 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Damn, I guess the life of the chronic bachelor does have some benefits.  :strokebeard:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher] * 1
    #14092505 - 03/09/11 01:15 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

Yeah, it gives me more time to get abused by anonymous young-uns on the net. :oldman:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #14092516 - 03/09/11 01:17 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

:rofl:


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Re: Exteriorization of the Senses [Re: deCypher]
    #14092544 - 03/09/11 01:23 PM (12 years, 10 months ago)

My sig picture was after one of your particularly nasty verbal assaults. :sad:


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