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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638630 -

I'm okay with branding if it is the societal norm...

After all, I don't want my kid to be the only kid in school that isn't branded.  Nor do I want my child to be socially disadvantaged by the fact that I didn't brand him like the responsible parents did.


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Censoring opposing views since 2014.



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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638632 -

Enlil said:
teknix said:
Here is evidence: A child born in Shanghai (China) is forecasted to have  a longer lifespan then an American counterpart and they are not generally circumcised when born.



Evidence of what?  Correlation does not equal causation.  It's also true that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, the average global temperature has risen...does that mean we need more pirates to combat global warming?



Yes, the argument is that there is not a legitimate excuse for circumcision, I was not correlating that cause to longer life. Only to the irrelevance of any claim that could be made about health and circumcision.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638638 -

Enlil said:
I'm okay with branding if it is the societal norm...

After all, I don't want my kid to be the only kid in school that isn't branded.  Nor do I want my child to be socially disadvantaged by the fact that I didn't brand him like the responsible parents did.


It doesn't matter if you care if other people do it, it matters that the choice is not the other peoples to decide. Regardless of Tradition.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638699 -

Enlil said:
Certainly not in the U.S. it isn't...but there very well may be societies on this planet where that is okay.




This is pretty ridiculous Enlil.  You're being a defense attorney.


You need to decide who reigns supreme as soverign.  I decide that the individual does that over their own body.  Other people, seemingly yourself included seem to believe some amorphous body termed "society" has actual RIGHTS (despite being an idea and not an actual physical being or body) and more dangerously - that the rights of society trump the rights of the individual.


Up to the point where you say that virgin sacrifices may be "okay" in areas where they occur.


Murderers are often okay with murdering.  The opinion of the murderer or thief does not determine murder or theft.  If a murderer says he was "Exterminating" and not murdering, that doesn't make him a "Tutsi" or Serb/Croat/Bosnian or Jew exterminator.




What's appropriate to say is that in some societies, horribly invasive laws exist and are enforced that "legally" permit some people to harm and even kill others.

That doesn't make these acts any less criminal.  Crime is not bound by space and time, and soon this will be felt by all.








Also I do not buy the "morality is relative" argument.  It is NEVER "moral" to rape and kill a screaming girl then mutilate her corpse in order to "Pray for rain".  It's rape, kidnap, murder, possibly torture and desecration of a corpse.  I don't care if your society has been doing it for 5000 years.


If the victim or subject of violence does not consent to that violence and that violence is being prepetrated by another human, you're talking about a natural law crime.  I own my body and I own my thoughts and decisions and the only way you'll take those from me is with force of arms.


There are realms however where force of arms are impotent and those who chose to harm and manipulate and rule over others will be punished for every single sin/crime/unit of suffering they committed/brought into this world.





Most Muslims do not believe in apostasy as you stated (though I will grant that some do.  The same is true of Christianity).  Dar-al-Kufr and Dar-Al-Islam are concepts often brought up by mis/disinformationists to make it seem like Muslims want to kill people who aren't Muslims and take over any and all non-Muslim lands.

Funny how the last people to do that, for oh say 500 years now have been European Christians.







Tonsils don't need to come out in 90+% of surgeries that occur.  More Western bullshit of charging people money to cut into their body.  The levels of misinformation and disinformation make the subject hilarious.

The best part is how Westerners make fun of indigenous people practicing studies that are thousands of years old when you have doctors in the West behaving in ways so unethical that it can hardly be believed.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638832 -

teknix said:
Like killing innocent people is objectively wrong.


That is bullshit. It is just as subjective as any other moral prescription.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Humility]
    #16639500 -

The hypocrisy in your argument undercuts its efficacy.

You seem to shun the concept of society while making a statement like "rape is wrong"...Rape is only wrong because of society....before civilization, rape was the normal course of mating for humans...it still is for many species.  You believe it to be morally wrong only because society has deemed it so.  What you call "natural law" is really just societal norms...

In fact, the concept of one's own control over one's body is something you got from modern western civilization...

Of course, in the context of this thread, the concept of control over one's body should be examined in the context of a child's control over his own body...it's a bit of a different analysis.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Memories]
    #16644298 -

Memories said:
teknix said:
Like killing innocent people is objectively wrong.


That is bullshit. It is just as subjective as any other moral prescription.


Do you think it is OK to kill innocent people? If not then what are u basing this conclusion on?

Quote:
The law of war is a body of law concerning acceptable justifications to engage in war (jus ad bellum) and the limits to acceptable wartime conduct (jus in bello or International humanitarian law). The law of war is considered an aspect of public international law (the law of nations) and is distinguished from other bodies of law, such as the domestic law of a particular belligerent to a conflict, that may also provide legal limits to the conduct or justification of war.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_war



Just because there are exceptions in some peoples personal view doesn't mean that killing innocents isn't objectively wrong in totality.

Edited by teknix (08/04/12 01:07 PM)

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16644514 -

Quote:
Do you think it is OK to kill innocent people? If not then what are u basing this conclusion on?


My opinion has no bearing on the fact that all moral prescriptions are subjective preferences. I'm basing it on the fact that morals are nothing more than subjective preferences. They are no more cosmically special or objective than one's favorite ice cream flavor.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Memories]
    #16644687 -

You posit a circular argument without reason. You say it is subjective because it is subjective. It doesn't matter if someone thinks it is OK, the question is if it is OK.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16646713 -

teknix said:
You posit a circular argument without reason. You say it is subjective because it is subjective. It doesn't matter if someone thinks it is OK, the question is if it is OK.


Morality is not something that exists separately from humans i.e. objectively. All morality is based on what someone thinks. That is all it is, a preference of an individual. The only metric for "if it is OK" is subjective preferences.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Shins]
    #18691152 -

Shins said:
Circumcision is child abuse.

no ifs ands or buts.


Agreed.

Here's the basic scoop from a buddy of mine, a university professor of neuranatomy:

Circumcision cuts into and cuts off metres of important veins (blood return) and occasionally an artery (in the frenulum; blood supply). This alters the normal vascularity and ultimately the physiology of the penis, forcing a complex healing by putting capillaries into different duty. This affects the amount of blood that reaches the meatus -- likely an important component of meatal stenosis and the chief reason almost all intact men have functional meatal lips and most circumcised men don't. The meatal lips are the culmination of the raphe and are direct beneficiaries of the frenular artery. The lips, of course, are what close tightly together to keep pathogens out of the urethra. Another marvel of nature.

Also, the veins running through the foreskin ensure that in its relaxed, forward position the prepuce is not just a blanket, but a heated blanket. This in turn regulates the temperature of the glans, which in turn helps determine how close to the body the testicles ride (cool=closer to body=less sperm produced). Most circumised males have a consistently colder glans than intact males; some have an uncomfortably cold glans, particularly after sitting for long periods or after sports.

The efficiency of bloodflow through the foreskin & glans is a factor in proper tumescence and detumescence, though the body works mightily to overcome the vascular obstacles posed by the severing of a significant chunk of the venous system of the penis through circumcision. The alternate "mapping" the body is forced to do after iatrogenic injury is a marvel of nature, but never quite as effective as the original.

One of the foreskin's primary functions is to serve as an "early alert" system to tumescence; it is ultra-sensitive to any change in diameter of the glans and lets a male know well in advance of any change. Obviously, without a foreskin there is no monitoring of the glans and some circumcised males joke that they are well on their way to erection before they realize it. Not a big problem in most settings, but also not the way the body was designed to work.

The skin of the penis is unique on all the body, in that it is not attached to the underlying fascia. You can actually roll the tip of the foreskin all the way down to the pubic bone (depending on the elasticity of the frenulum). The body achieves this through a complexly-evolved nerve system that does not have the nerve endings run down from layer to layer as on the rest of the body; but rather, laterally in a specialized structure that allows complete freedom of the gliding top layer of skin. This means that the nerve endings are in fact attached to the body only at their extreme ends -- the pubis, and where the foreskin doubles back again and "ends" at the sulcus behind the glans. Since the rested foreskin is doubled-over, any cut that "shortens" it in this doubled state actually removes a cylindrical section from this sleeve, short-circuiting the complex nerve structure. Again, the body springs into action to repair this injury by having nerve endings attach over time to whatever nerves are nearby; but the section of the brain that corresponds to the nerve endings severed through circumcision go "black" and remain that way.

Circumcision, as a wound, also lays down a complex and irrreversible system of fibroblasts at the site of the circumcision scar, between layers of skin and the underlying fascia. Invisible to the naked eye, this dense web of cells defeats the purpose of the unique outer skin structure of the penis by creating an "anchor" which limits the mobility of the shaft skin and its gliding mechanism so important to sex. It is also why so many men at some point encounter difficulty with foreskin restoration, as these fibroblasts first need to break down before progress in stretching can be made.

My take on it is that some people don't care about any of this. They just like circumcision because they think cut cocks are "prettier". *roll eyes*

Circumcision also decreases a man's penis length and circumference.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: WharphRat]
    #18691248 -

Go away.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18691491 -

You mad zappa? Lost your foreskin? Too bad.

Male circmcision is probably only legal because jews like to do it and they are allowed to get away with thing others wouldn't.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Shins]
    #18691624 -

The kid is annoying because he keeps resurrecting old threads.  I believe he already had one short ban for it.

I also believe we have already gone over this.  Probably in this thread.  Stop obsessing over dicks.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: zappaisgod]
    #18692387 -

Yep, WharphRat will get a few days to figure out the thread bumping thing


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: ohforkiefssake]
    #18724446 -

ohforkiefssake said:
Circumcision is not child abuse, lol.

It's almost necessary for a man to have that done. Otherwise when they get older they are 3x more likely to get urinary tract infections and bacterial infections.


Really? At what do infections start?

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