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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5730404 - 06/09/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

My original statement:

Quote:

There is quite a bit of evidence that male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure, but it certainly does not eliminate it.




Your original statement:

Quote:

And there is evidence that says the exact opposite.




If you want to discuss the psychological aspects of sexuality, fine. I find those aspects much more fascinating than mere anatomical facts. However, that is not what is being discussed in this thread, nor what you said in your original statement, nor what is appropriate to this particular forum. Perhaps you should start a thread in the Physical & Mental Health forum. I would be glad to participate.

Where is your evidence that circumcision increases sexual pleasure? Why are you exempt from backing up your claims, rather than just "ejaculating your assumptions all over this forum"? Post some scientific study, just one which presents actual data which supports your claim that there is just as much evidence to the contrary of my claim. If you cannot, then your assertion is baseless.

My response was to your request about the anatomical significance of the prepuce, or foreskin.

Quote:

And how much, percentage-wise, of nerves does the foreskin compose? Give me a valid, peer-supported study that tells me that something more than like .0025% of the nerves that compose the penis are part of the foreskin.




Mothers Against Circumcision was hosting an article which related the details of an actual, scientific study of the anatomy of the penis. This study was contemporaneous with the non-scientific, anecdotal study which the AAP relied upon for their statement regarding circumcision. I also posted a link to the study itself, which you apparently did not bother to do more than skim before posting an irritable response.

The fact that I do not have a penis does not limit my ability to study the information generated by scientific studies of anatomy and sexuality. You requested actual data, which I provided. You chose to reject it and demand psychological issues be addressed instead. This is unreasonable and an obvious red herring.

Certainly sex is more than physical sensation, just as life is more than physical sensation, but does this mean that we should deliberately and for no therapeutic purpose amputate our foreskin, clitoris, finger tips, eyes, lips, taste buds, etc...?

What exactly are you defending here? That it is OK for all cultures to continue abusive practices, as long as it is their "thing"? I vehemently disagree.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Veritas]
    #5730657 - 06/09/06 12:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

While this is an interesting discussion, I'm having a hard time seeing how the last two dozen or so posts relate to politics or law or activism. Are any of the participants in this thread advocating a government law against circumcision?

If I don't see some kind of tie-in next post I'll move the thread.




Phred


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Phred]
    #5731685 - 06/09/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm having a hard time seeing how the last two dozen or so posts relate to politics or law or activism.

Mothers Against Circumcision is an activist organization, and the discussion of late is heavy about them. :shrug:

Are any of the participants in this thread advocating a government law against circumcision?

/me raises hand

We already have laws against mutilating someone who has not given consent. We just conveniently ignore the law when it comes to the most defenseless among us.

By the way, as if mutilating babies isn't bad enough, apparently there is a profit motive behind keeping this practice alive. Amputated foreskins are in demand by pharmaceutical and cosmetics companies who pay hospitals for them. The foreskins are used in the development of skin products and for research into developing therapies for burn victims. I understand that parents are rarely told their babies' body parts are sold after they're amputated.

How can it be that we're so careful to preclude payment for donated human eggs to be used for research, but we have no problem chopping off pieces of babies for use in money-making endeavors.

This makes me sick to my stomach.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (06/10/06 10:06 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Diploid]
    #5731857 - 06/09/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Child abuse is already against the law, so what the U.S. government needs to do is apply the same standard to non-therapeutic (and often non-anesthetized :eek:) genital surgery as it does to other physical abuses perpetrated by adults against children.

If someone cut off the tip of a child's finger, using no anesthesia and for no medical reason, this would be considered abuse.  Cultural bias has blinded people to the fact that genital mutilation is abusive, unnecessary and backward.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Veritas]
    #5731870 - 06/09/06 07:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm an irratable bastard, especially when met with pretension...

Quote:


My original statement:

    Quote:
    There is quite a bit of evidence that male circumcision reduces sexual pleasure, but it certainly does not eliminate it.



Your original statement:

    Quote:
    And there is evidence that says the exact opposite.



If you want to discuss the psychological aspects of sexuality, fine. I find those aspects much more fascinating than mere anatomical facts. However, that is not what is being discussed in this thread, nor what you said in your original statement, nor what is appropriate to this particular forum. Perhaps you should start a thread in the Physical & Mental Health forum. I would be glad to participate.

Where is your evidence that circumcision increases sexual pleasure?





I have read ancedotal evidence that says post circumcision, adult men have claimed greater sexual stimulation.  That is all I was referring to.  I can dig it out for you but it would be a waste of my time because you still seem to think this is a discussion about anatomy.  I suppose this miscommunication is my fault.  I never claimed to believe or I never set out to show that circumcision increases sexual pleasure.  When I said that, I was implying how riduculous your assertion was by inserting an equally ridiculous one.

You said sexual pleasure-that is different than nerve stimulation.  IF stimulation is what you meant, then go ahead and edit your post.  Otherwise your claim is nothing more than the binary of stimulus=pleasure.  I could not disagree with this more and that is why the psychology has to be brought up.  It is part of the arguement no matter how much you wish to dismiss it.


Quote:

You requested actual data, which I provided.




You did not provide any data that supported your claim that uncircumcised males achieve more sexual pleasure.  Your data pointed out the obvious-that there are nerves in the foreskin, and that these nerves are not there when it has been removed.  It does not address the precentage of nerves that the foreskin composes in regard to the penis as a whole. 


Quote:

You chose to reject it and demand psychological issues be addressed instead. This is unreasonable and an obvious red herring




Hardly because that is what I've been getting at the whole time.  I may not have made this clear, it is my fault.  If a male is circumcised before sexual maturity, he knows not the difference and his sexual pleasure will be equal to a uncircumcised male during intercourse because I feel sexual pleasure is mostly psychological.  IE:  I can grab my penis right now and feel no pleasure until I start dropping the names of the various college courses I have taken.:naughty:


The only way to study circumcision's realworld effects is the self report of those who have had the procedure done after sexual maturity, but you throw these out as unscientific, and they conveiniently contradict your claim of a highented sexual pleasure for uncircumcised males.  But it is all that there is to go on in this debate for me


Quote:

does this mean that we should deliberately and for no therapeutic purpose amputate our foreskin, clitoris, finger tips, eyes, lips, taste buds, etc...?





It doesn't mean anything.  Why do we wear earring?  Get Tattoos?  IF you think about it these things have no logical value either.  But they play a part in the therapy of identity.  Just like circumcision, it is stupid, but It does carry the value of idetity, even if such a thing is imagined.

Quote:


What exactly are you defending here? That it is OK for all cultures to continue abusive practices, as long as it is their "thing"? I vehemently disagree.




I'm defending circumcision, not abuse.  You call it abuse, I call it culture.  I say to each his own.  If male circumcision is abuse-than it should be outlawed when done without concent, correct?  I think not.  I argue against this idea.  A parent has the right to choose to send his or her child to preschool or to home teach them becasue they want to mold them how they feel is best for the child.  A parent has the right to impose their culture their children-it happens anyways.  They threfore have the right to circumcise their son if they feel it is important on the level of their identity.  It has no real negative effects.  It does have positive effects, though--identity.  Ask your nearest jewish person the importance of identity in their lives even if they practice silly rituals for no "scientific" positive effect.


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


Edited by DirtMcgirt (06/09/06 07:36 PM)


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5731942 - 06/09/06 07:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You call it abuse, I call it culture.

Would you still call it culture if we were talking about branding a baby with a hot iron?

How about a partial castration, leaving one testicle behind so the child could still reproduce and is not functionally harmed?

How about the removal of a kidney. The child can live with just one, after all. Would this also be acceptable if the parents' culture demanded it?

Where do you draw the line?


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


Edited by Diploid (06/09/06 08:07 PM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Diploid]
    #5732061 - 06/09/06 08:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Female circumcision is done INTENTIONALLY to eliminate sexual pleasure.


Male circumcision is done....but not for that specific reason.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5732858 - 06/10/06 12:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Female circumcision is done INTENTIONALLY to eliminate sexual pleasure.

Male circumcision is done....but not for that specific reason.


:rolleyes:


"It's done for health reasons. God created an imperfect body and we have to fix it."

:whatever:


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Diploid]
    #5733211 - 06/10/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

where would you draw the line




Good question and it is not for me to decide, or YOU. As it stands the majority of people on this planet feel male circumcision is not abuse. I feel the majority of people believe it is a pointless and minor alteration on male genetalia. A silly novelty. It is hardly parallel to the extreame of chopping off testicles or even removing the clitoris. Those things are much, much more serious, practically surgery. Stay on subject


Personally I don't know if I will circumcize my son if I ever have one. I've never really thought about it but I probably won't-seems pointless. However, It shouldn't be outlawed. That is stupid. That is pushing your beliefs on others-something I oppose. You can shout down circumcision and call it stupid all you want but when you start forcing people to conform to your beliefs that is far more barbaric than slicing off a little bit of skin ever could be. Human variety is what makes humankind so...human


--------------------
"And we, inhabitants of the great coral of the Cosmos, believe the atom (which still we cannot see) to be full matter, whereas, it too, like everything else, is but an embroidery of voids in the Void, and we give the name of being, dense and even eternal, to that dance of inconsistencies, that infinite extension that is identified with absolute Nothingness and that spins from its own non-being the illusion of everything."


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5733542 - 06/10/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It is hardly parallel to the extreame of chopping off testicles or even removing the clitoris. Those things are much, much more serious, practically surgery.

So, it's culture or abuse depending on where you personally draw an arbitrary line?

Stay on subject

I AM on topic. Circumcision is surgery.

Personally I don't know if I will circumcise my son if I ever have one

Considering how permanent the procedure is, shouldn't the decision be left for the boy to make when he's older? Seems the lowest of selfish to deny a person that chance by irreversibly force-feeding your son a culture he may eventually reject.


--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleDirtMcgirt
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Diploid]
    #5734561 - 06/10/06 03:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So, it's culture or abuse depending on where you personally draw an arbitrary line?





Of course, everybody is going to draw a personal line somewhere. That is why these things are gray. Is cutting the infant's hair abuse(remember islam), is spanking abuse? Is sending your child to private school abuse? We can call it abuse if you like, arguing semantics is pointelss, but that doesn't change the effect of the procedure.


Quote:

considering how permanent the procedure is, shouldn't the decision be left for the boy to make when he's older?




And what would be a good age for consent in your opinion? 2? 5? 10? 18? You do have a point there, it is permanent. That is a good reason not to do it. But the procedure is so arbitrary that it doesn't make much a difference to those who do choose to circumcise their son or to all but a small handful of people who have been circumcised. Permanent and without consent, yes, important and life altering, no.


Quote:

Seems the lowest of selfish to deny a person that chance by irreversibly force-feeding your son a culture he may eventually reject.




You, all of us, are force fed and swallowed our parent's culture no matter how much you may think you've trandscended it. Wheather or not one is cicumcised makes little difference to that.


Like I already said:
Quote:

You can shout down circumcision and call it stupid all you want but when you start forcing people to conform to your beliefs that is far more barbaric than slicing off a little bit of skin ever could be




That is the lowest of selfish, to force your opinion about an arbitrary procedure onto others who don't share it.

I'm done with this because I'm not arguing for circumcision, people do for their own personal reasons. I'm arguing for the right to do it. You have skirted around actually saying you want it outlawed. Do you? If you really believe it to be abuse--back up your opinion and state it should be outlawed and stopped.

This is going nowhere and personally I don't even care about circumcision-I just hate it when people make false claims to strengthen their position(like veritas has done) or try to force their worldview onto others when it is over something as silly as the foreskin of the penis (which is what you will be doing if you say it should be outlawed).


You may have the last word.

Live and let live...


Edited by DirtMcgirt (06/10/06 03:13 PM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: niteowl]
    #5735464 - 06/10/06 08:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Female circumcision is done INTENTIONALLY to eliminate sexual pleasure.

Male circumcision is done....but not for that specific reason.


:rolleyes:


"It's done for health reasons. God created an imperfect body and we have to fix it."

:whatever:





Many cultures circumcise woman specifically for the purpose of taking away the woman's sexual desire.


In the USA, men are circumcised, for a variety of reasons, whether it be wrong or right. BUT THEY ARE NOT CIRCUMCISED INTENTIONALLY TO TAKE AWAY SEXUAL PLEASURE.

NO SHIT!!!!!!


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleDiploidM
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5735611 - 06/10/06 09:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Permanent and without consent, yes, important and life altering, no.

Many circumcised men disagree with you on the 'life altering' part.

You have skirted around actually saying you want it outlawed. Do you?

It already IS outlawed, but the law isn't applied. Be that as it may, if cutting babies with a sharp knife were not already illegal, then yes, I would be in favor of a law specifically prohibiting it.

You may have the last word.

I'll leave the last word to you:

Quote:

You do have a point there, it is permanent. That is a good reason not to do it.




--------------------
Republican Values:

1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you.
2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child.
3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer.

4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5735877 - 06/10/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I just hate it when people make false claims to strengthen their position(like veritas has done)




You have not disproved my claim, nor supported your own. Until you have done so, keep your baseless accusations out of this forum.

Just to clarify:

Quote:

Pleasure (relevant definition)
sensual gratification




Eliminate a nerve-rich portion of an erogenous organ = reduced sensation. Reduced sensation = reduced potential for sensual gratification.

No need for me to edit my original post, as it is already accurately worded and subsequently backed up by scientific data. Your discussion of the psychology of eroticism is off-topic and irrelevant to the point currently at issue. As I said, it is an interesting subject, but not germane to "circumcision: pro or con."


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Veritas]
    #5736020 - 06/10/06 10:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

As an uncircumcised male, I can tell you that if my foreskin wasn't there, the sensitivity would be lowered substantially in the head. It really can't even be argued about, it's a known fact, and I think every uncut male who has experimented with their dick can testify to this.


Edited by HeavyToilet (06/10/06 10:35 PM)


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InvisibleHeavyToilet
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: Veritas]
    #5736061 - 06/10/06 10:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Another thing that hasn't been pointed out yet is the fact that it is a traumatic experience.

Traumatic experiences don't just 'go away', they can affect someone for their entire life. That's a permanent change in the brain. Just because the kid doesn't remember it doesn't mean it hasn't caused a significant disturbance in the brain.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: HeavyToilet]
    #5736141 - 06/10/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Thanks for your first-person account. :grin:

This incredible article on Male Genital Mutilation (as circumcision should rightfully be known)addresses the neurological changes you refer to, as well as describing the surgical procedure:

Quote:

Now let's examine how a typical medical circumcision is performed.

First the child, after 9 months in the fetal position, is tied down spreadeagled and straight-backed in a circumstraint, a plastic board molded to the outline of an infant's body, which is equipped with velcro straps.

Next he is covered with a sheet which has a hole through which his penis is threaded. Then his penis is thoroughly swabbed with sterilizing solution. Naturally, this frequently provokes an erection. Some physicians deliberately provoke erections in order to judge the "cutoff line" and to aid in the surgery itself.

In any case, in the infant's brand new, wide-open, pre-verbal consciousness, this is his first sexual experience: a torturous nightmare.

Because the foreskin of an infant is attached to the head of the penis by the same tissue that bonds a fingernail to a finger, it must be skinned away before it can be cut off. So the doctor forces a metal probe between the foreskin and the head and tears apart this flesh (called synechia) which bonds them together. Next, the doctor has several options for the actual amputation.

One commonly used device for this step is called a gomco clamp. This essentially functions as a thumbscrew for the foreskin. I am not making this up.

Surgical scissors are used to cut a slit along the length of the foreskin in order to insert the metal "bell" which serves as one jaw of the clamp. The foreskin is pulled over the bell and the other jaw of the clamp is attached.

Then, by tightening a screw, the foreskin, one of the most densely innervated tissues of the body, is audibly crushed along two lines (inner and outer foreskin) around its circumference.

(Since all the nerves of the foreskin pass through this crush line, the pain perception may be similar to that of putting virtually the entire erogenous surface of the penis in a vise.)

The clamp is left on for a few minutes to promote blood clotting, then the foreskin is cut off at the crush line.

Afterwards, the raw, bleeding, formerly internal organ is wrapped in bandages and a diaper, and then repeatedly burned with urine and its breakdown product, ammonia, and exposed to infectious fecal matter while healing.

For many years the mainstream medical orthodoxy, put forth after it was no longer acceptable to torture children in the name of "moral hygiene," was that babies don't feel pain. It wasn't until 1978 that researchers even suggested using anesthetic during circumcision, and even today, most medical circumcisions are performed without anesthesia, according to the AMA.




http://www.math.missouri.edu/~rich/MGM/primer.html

The line must be drawn between respecting cultural differences and condoning child abuse.  Perhaps many of the U.S. parents who circumcise their sons do so out of ignorance, rather than as a nod to their cultural/religious beliefs.  If so, education would expose this practice for what it is: cruel mutilation.


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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: DirtMcgirt]
    #5736194 - 06/10/06 11:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DirtMcgirt said:

You did not provide any data that supported your claim that uncircumcised males achieve more sexual pleasure. Your data pointed out the obvious-that there are nerves in the foreskin, and that these nerves are not there when it has been removed. It does not address the precentage of nerves that the foreskin composes in regard to the penis as a whole.





Knock yourself out.

http://www.noharmm.org/morepages.htm


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Forced Female Circumcision's Legacy [Re: buckwheat]
    #5737453 - 06/11/06 10:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, that page includes the same study (conducted by Taylor) which I linked to in my post.  Apparently the scientific examination and measurement of foreskins is not relevant, however, as it does not address the psychology of eroticism.  :rolleyes:

And, of course, if my cultural beliefs included the ritual removal of my son's eyelids, the relevant issue would not be the function or benefit of having intact eyelids, but the psychology of sight.


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