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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6732348 - 03/31/07 05:31 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

I will respond to this point-by-point when I have more time.

Yes, your studies show biological differences.  Other studies show little or no biological differences.  Further studies show slight differences, which are then compounded by upbringing and social role-playing.  :shrug:

Does any of this indicate that men or women are actually handicapped in their performance in non-traditional fields?  Does it indicate that men rape and are violent because they are victims of their biology?  Does it indicate that women nurture and cooperate because of their biology?

How do we truly tease out what is nature and what is nurture?  What is genetic and what is culturally programmed?  What exists as latent potential and what is simply not present?

My point in this thread was to address the denigration of men by women, and clarify the fact that this practice is NOT feminism, but sexism.  I never claimed that men and women are identical, but rather that each human should be allowed to pursue their own individual potential.

Do you object to this concept, based upon our biological differences?

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InvisibleDieCommie


Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: Veritas]
    #6732397 - 03/31/07 05:53 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Sure, any one of us can choose to define what is and what isnt a feminist. I think the best way to define define a feminist is by looking at those who call themselves feminists. From my vantage point, those who call themselves feminists are also predominately sexist.



Quote:

Other studies show little or no biological differences.


I would be interested in who conducted that study and a link if you have it.

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: Veritas]
    #6732442 - 03/31/07 06:07 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
My point in this thread was to address the denigration of men by women, and clarify the fact that this practice is NOT feminism, but sexism. I never claimed that men and women are identical, but rather that each human should be allowed to pursue their own individual potential.

Do you object to this concept, based upon our biological differences?




Quite the opposite, I think we should make an extra effort for people who would otherwise fail under the standard system to reach their potential.

BTW, it seems based on what you said above that we probably agree in more areas then we disagree. =)


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: FrenchSocialist]
    #6732772 - 03/31/07 07:24 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Would you also agree that human potential is not pigeon-holed according to sex?  IOW, that individual men and women could possess potential abilities which are not predicted by the studies you've presented?  Further, that over-emphasis on allegedly sex-linked traits may cause individuals to avoid developing "inappropriate" skills?

Yes, I think that we have large areas of agreement on this issue.  :smile:  It is still interesting to explore the disagreement, though.

Edited by Veritas (03/31/07 07:39 PM)

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: DieCommie]
    #6732806 - 03/31/07 07:38 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Sure, any one of us can choose to define what is and what isnt a feminist.  I think the best way to define define a feminist is by looking at those who call themselves feminists.  From my vantage point, those who call themselves feminists are also predominately sexist.




Well, just as male chauvinists tend to be the ones who speak with the most volume & get the most attention, female chauvinists posing as feminists raise controversy & get noticed.

If you read Naomi Wolf's work, I think you'll get a better idea of what modern feminism is all about.  Not man-bashing, women-favored-over-men for employment, men are violent monsters and women are delicate angels = old-school victim feminism aka cloaked sexism and female chauvinism.

One of the most famous studies of male/female cognitive abilities & the biological basis thereof (or lack thereof, as they found) was The Psychology of Sex Differences (1974, Maccoby and Jacklin).  I can't find a link to the full text, unfortunately, and I read it years ago in college.  Perhaps you'll have better luck if you do an internet search for this paper.  Their findings showed little or no difference in cognitive ability between girls and boys.  This contradicts other smaller-scale studies which found the verbal/math split in abilities.

BTW, I was referring to a biological difference in cognitive abilities, and not just bio differences in general, which clearly exist.  :lol:  Vive la difference!! :naughty:

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OfflineFrenchSocialist
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: Veritas]
    #6743209 - 04/03/07 05:39 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Would you also agree that human potential is not pigeon-holed according to sex?




Most definitely, though I recognize that a lot of these statistics merely reveal real concrete mechanisms which may operate in individuals. I for example may not be able to do certain things as well as others due to physical traits I inherited as an aspect of my gender.

 
Quote:

Veritas said:IOW, that individual men and women could possess potential abilities which are not predicted by the studies you've presented?




Of course. Pinker himself notes this better then I do:

Quote:

Finally, we are talking about a statistical effect. This is such a crucial point that I have to discuss it in some detail.
Women are nowhere near absent even from the field in which they are most under-represented. The explanations for sex differences must be statistical as well. And here is a touchstone for the entire discussion:

These are two Gaussian or normal distributions; two bell curves. The X axis stands for any ability you want to measure. The Yaxis stands for the proportion of people having that ability. The overlapping curves are what you get whenever you compare the sexes on any measure in which they differ. In this example, if we say that this is the male curve and this is the female curve, the means may be different, but at any particular ability level there are always representatives of both genders.

So right away a number of public statements that have been made last couple of months can be seen as red herrings, and should never have been made by anyone who understands the nature of statistical distributions. This includes the accusation that President Summers implied that "50% of the brightest minds in America do not have the right aptitude for science," that "women just can't cut it," and so on. These statements are statistically illiterate, and have nothing to do with the phenomena we are discussing.




Saying women can't make it in any field as well as men based on proven general traits is statistically illiterate.

 
Quote:

Veritas said:Further, that over-emphasis on allegedly sex-linked traits may cause individuals to avoid developing "inappropriate" skills?




I think it works both ways. Exaggerating or misapplying the differences can lead to harm because people may become discouraged and it can promote discrimination. But ignoring the differences can also cause harm, by blocking necessary understanding that we need to solve problems.

Again to quote Pinker (as his knowledge on and ability to articulate these issues dwarfs my own exponentially):

Quote:

it is crucial to distinguish the moral proposition that people should not be discriminated against on account of their sex — which I take to be the core of feminism — and the empirical claim that males and females are biologically indistinguishable. They are not the same thing. Indeed, distinguishing them is essential to protecting the core of feminism. Anyone who takes an honest interest in science has to be prepared for the facts on a given issue to come out either way. And that makes it essential that we not hold the ideals of feminism hostage to the latest findings from the lab or field. Otherwise, if the findings come out as showing a sex difference, one would either have to say, "I guess sex discrimination wasn't so bad after all," or else furiously suppress or distort  the findings so as to preserve the ideal. The truth cannot be sexist. Whatever the facts turn out to be, they should not be taken to compromise the core of feminism.

The nature and source of sex differences are also of practical importance. Most of us agree that there are aspects of the world, including gender disparities, that we want to change. But if we want to change the world we must first understand it, and that includes understanding the sources of sex differences.





Quote:

Veritas said:Yes, I think that we have large areas of agreement on this issue.  :smile:  It is still interesting to explore the disagreement, though.




I agree. In fact I often times learn the most about my own ideas by debating with my people who proficiently disagree with me.


--------------------


"Both liberty and equality are among the primary goals pursued by human beings through many centuries; but total liberty for wolves is death to the lambs" -- Isaiah Berlin

Edited by FrenchSocialist (04/03/07 05:47 PM)

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Offlinegluke bastid
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Re: Feminism vs. Female Chauvinism and Male Bashing [Re: Veritas]
    #6744400 - 04/03/07 10:29 PM (16 years, 11 months ago)

Feminism can just simply be the idea that your sex doesn't mean you should have to behave the way people tell you to. For that reason, I am a feminist.


--------------------
:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil
 
- Thomas Paine

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