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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Humility]
    #16638184 -

Humility said:
Cutting off parts of the genitals of a newborn baby?  In what world does that ever translate as "okay"? 




Earth
Quote:
I like the example of branding.  Many African American fraternities brand their members to show membership.  If you asked the doctor to brand your newborn baby to make it a member of your clan with a hot branding iron just like you were branded they would call the police IMMEDIATELY.




Societal consent and tradition have always been the basis of morality.  Ritual scarification is done in different parts of the world, and in those societies that practice it, it is not morally wrong...

Similarly, in the U.S. circumcision is not wrong.

You seem to think that because you disagree, everyone else must be crazy.

The fact is that parents (and other adults) do things to children that cause permanent changes to them...whether it be circumcision, ear piercing, or preaching some religious or political ideology to them.  This is a fact of life that can't be changed.  In this society, and indeed most of the world, parents are trusted as stewards of their children's development into adulthood.  Certainly, someone has to be...The only other choice is to leave them in the woods to fend for themselves...

You seem to be arguing a position that society and tradition shouldn't define morality.  I would argue that YOU shouldn't define morality.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638187 -

Circumcision is a christian or religious tradition more then a cultural tradition isn't it?

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638190 -

Let's say some religion wants to sacrifice virgins to appease their gods, should that be allowed as well?

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638199 -

If they live in a society where sacrificing virgins is accepted and morally right...sure...


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638207 -

Enlil said:
If they live in a society where sacrificing virgins is accepted and morally right...sure...




So you think it's OK that suicide bombers blow up the infidels huh?

:rolleyes:

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638218 -

Certainly not in the U.S. it isn't...but there very well may be societies on this planet where that is okay.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638234 -

The question was in regards to your ethics. You are condoning these actions through impasse, who cares if they say it's ok, that doesn't make it OK, which is the point.

There is objective morality. See Moral universalism:

Quote:
Moral universalism (also called moral objectivism or universal morality) is the meta-ethical position that some system of ethics, or a universal ethic, applies universally, that is, for "all similarly situated individuals",[1] regardless of culture, race, sex, religion, nationality, sexuality, or any other distinguishing feature. Moral universalism is opposed to moral nihilism and moral relativism. However, not all forms of moral universalism are absolutist, nor are they necessarily value monist; many forms of universalism, such as utilitarianism, are non-absolutist, and some forms, such as that of Isaiah Berlin, may be value pluralist.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_universalism




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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638250 -

All morality is relative.  You can pretend it isn't, but it is and always has been.  What is right/wrong depends on where you are and what time you live in.  This has always been true.

The only real debate is whether morality should be defined personally, societally, or globally...My OPINION is that the proper place to make that definition is societally...you're entitled to disagree with that.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638414 -

I don't know, just because people have different ideologies of what is acceptable, there are still lines. Like killing innocent people is objectively wrong.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638439 -

Maybe, but determining who is "innocent" certainly isn't universal.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638456 -

Enlil said:
Maybe, but determining who is "innocent" certainly isn't universal.



Yes, but most people on this planet would agree to the terms to begin to draw an objective line.

Innocent could be considered a random and/or uninvolved person.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638478 -

I don't know.  Quite a few muslims believe that non-muslims are heretics and therefore not innocent. 

Besides, this thread isn't about ending lives.  Whatever universal disapproval murder might enjoy, that is arguably tied to our own sense of self-preservation.

We're talking about body modification of children.  This is something that has been accepted, and even encouraged, in many societies at different time periods.  There may come a time when such practices are universally unacceptable.  On the other hand, there may come a time when such practices are universally expected...who's to say?


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638491 -

I think there can be a line drawn on this matter as well.

It is for a person to decide how/if their body will be modified.

There is not taking back such a thing, and is not preventing anything considering children aren't sexually active.

It is no different then tattooing your name on your kid.

I don't see tradition be much of an excuse for anything though.

:shrug:

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638502 -

I see it as being the same thing as any other decision affecting a child that needs to be made by a parent.  A child isn't competent to decide if he should be circumcized...he doesn't have the capacity to understand all of the arguments for both sides.  This is really no different from something like foot binding.  Both are much more easily accomplished on children than on adults, so the parents have to make the decision based on what they think is in the best interest of the child.

The ideal that people should have total control over their body is useless when we're talking about children.


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638563 -

Yeah, but that is something permanent. People don't really own their children in any way to permanently alter them on a matter of tradition.

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638570 -

So is getting tonsils removed...should parents have to wait until the child is old enough to decide?


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638591 -

Here is evidence: A child born in Shanghai (China) is forecasted to have  a longer lifespan then an American counterpart and they are not generally circumcised when born.

Quote:
A child in Shanghai is expected to live 82 years. In the United States, the figure is not quite 79 years. (For all of China, including rural areas, life expectancy is lower, 73 years β€” but rising steadily.)




So what reason is there really other then tradition to circumcise?

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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: Enlil]
    #16638613 -

Enlil said:
So is getting tonsils removed...should parents have to wait until the child is old enough to decide?



I would say. (obviously unless there is an illness which requires it.)

Quote:
Chinese medicine explains that tonsil stones and other issues related to tonsils happen due to toxins and poor quality digestion. That is why they recommend lowering or completely avoiding foods which create more acidity and toxins in body. Such foods are white flour products, red meats, and fat rich food items like dairy products, butter, ghee, fried foods and white sugar. Apart from avoiding these foods, they also suggest to include in one’s diet the foods rich in antioxidants such as blueberries, pomegranate, carrots, cabbage, raspberries and turnips. Ginger and carrot juice is also suggested to detoxifying the body and for relieving infections of tonsils and tonsil stones.
http://www.tonsilstonescauses.com/chinese-medicine-easily-removing-tonsil-stonesremedies-for-tonsil-stones/




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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638624 -

teknix said:
Here is evidence: A child born in Shanghai (China) is forecasted to have  a longer lifespan then an American counterpart and they are not generally circumcised when born.




Evidence of what?  Correlation does not equal causation.  It's also true that as the number of pirates in the world has decreased, the average global temperature has risen...does that mean we need more pirates to combat global warming?
Quote:
So what reason is there really other then tradition to circumcise?



Possible medical benefits...but that's not really the point.  Parents make decisions for their children that they think will help the child in the future...If someone believes that it will help their son get laid more, that's reason enough for me.

You seem to be against a person making decisions for another person, but you seem okay with the government making decisions for people.  For me, I would rather a parent have the option than the government tell a parent that they don't...


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Re: Male And Female Circumcision [Re: teknix]
    #16638627 -

Back on topic, circumcision is just another form of branding.

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