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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1630553 -

it's only MM to you fellows,
And it's only not MM to you "fellows"... whatever...

to the true believer
Coughcoughelitismcoughcoughhack

Moving along...
talking about NDE's and mushroom trips (and the amazingly coincidental similarities) is far from useless.
I think Near Death Experience is a misnomer...
"Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :wink:

perhaps you guys are old?
I'm 23, is that old?

disEnchanted?
dis?en?chant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dsn-chnt)
tr.v. dis?en?chant?ed, dis?en?chant?ing, dis?en?chants
To free from illusion or false belief; undeceive.
You're right, I am (we are?).
What's the problem here, officer?

not getting good shrooms?
I've grown them and picked them... taken them MANY MANY times.

low doses?
What, like 5 grams on an empty stomach?  Been there, done that.
For the record, except for a half dozen times, I've never taken less than 2 grams (yes, I have a scale - I'm an anal-retentive bastard and I've also kept a record in my trip journal of every trip after my first 14).

you're right, conventional sciences aren't up to the kind of investigation that a tripper is undertaking...
Actually, it is up to it. 
I suppose I qualify as a scientist... so I can tell you that the scientific method can most certainly be applied to psychedelic endeavors.  Maybe the aliens don't mess with me because I'm mad skilled with the scientific method... and maybe because I've developed a potion that renders one immune to their Gee Neural Dissa Ray guns (who knows?).

maybe if para-psychology was actually funded...
Calling Dr. Venkman... calling Dr. Venkman... please report to the S&P forum on the double!

"metal masterbation"
Isn't that a Metallica song?

this _is_ a site about mushrooms, remember.....
"This site was created to help stop the spread of dangerous misinformation related to magic mushrooms..."
Yeah, we're doing OUR part...
____________________________
disenchantment might account for the mental state of someone who wants to clamp down on tripped out people from talking about tripping.
Or maybe they're just passing out hits of reality.

trips can be researched, the research can even be refined in a manner. "testing", of course, plays a factor in research.
You don't need quotes around that.  I agree with you that there should be more research into psychedelics.

if we are to limit discussion to only really tangible, quantifiable concerns, (which is what I take it you mean by "researched, refined, or tested") then where would you like people to consider any metaphysical issues, if not in the P&S board....?
Reading comprehension.  Go back and try to understand Swami's definition of Mental Masturbation.

man, I'm sorry to burst your conservative shell,
Assumption.

but many issues, especially those surrounding tripping, require speculation and abstraction.
I don't think this is contrary to Swami's point.  Go back and try to understand Swami's definition of Mental Masturbation.

What I think is actually bugging you is nothing more that untrained exuberance. people are excited about the new world!
Assumption.

it's in the trip, an evangelical urge... why restrict discussion to can be known?
Real discussions have some sort of an outcome (ie. they don't qualify as MM). Go back and try to understand Swami's definition of Mental Masturbation.

I, for one, think that there may very well be alot we can learn from tripping if, out of the many subjective accounts, consensus where to arise as to the real nature and message of the trip. deciphering god's language
Consensus?  One must be careful not to make a sampling error when taking a poll. :wink:
___________________________
it's not unwarranted, man, you just disagree with my reasoning.
okay, but what about this:
deciphering god's language.
Last time I looked under a mushroom cap, I didn't see a signature or a label that read "Made in Heaven".  This qualifies as an unwarranted assumption...  unless you have proof (no photoshop jobs, please).


Sclorch out.         


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Shroomism]
    #1630557 -

Shroomism: It's not about whether they are baseless or not. It is about expanding boundaries.

Good point, but a problem arises when the 'F' in "What if?" is accidentally switched out for an 'S'.


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Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Sclorch]
    #1630566 -



I couldn't resist...  :smirk:


--------------------
Namaste.

Edited by RebelSteve33 (06/13/03 02:12 AM)

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Swami]
    #1630853 -

What I don?t understand, from you Swami is, that if you feel so strong that most of the topics in this forum are MM, and that most of the topics belong in the SF forum, why you hang around so much here?
(I am beginning to believe that deep inside you do believe in this things  but a part of you does not want to admit it :blush:)
They way I see this forum, is about spirituality related to the mushroom experience (that?s why is call the shroomery) Is logical to expect wacky things in this forum!
For most of Us, I will say 90% we have experiences and feelings that can not be explained so easy, by normal standards of reasoning.
A lot of us are searching with in our self and searching into different sates of consciousness, that frankly baffles my mind.
To tell us to  take some of this topics and bring it to the SF forum is very arrogant from your part, as arrogant if some one will tell you to go to the skeptic forum.
We all come here to share and yes some end up being MM (my self and Swami included), but also for some people the shroomery is one of the only outlet that they have to bring there questions and insights,  I don?t see the point in putting down so much .
Now going back to your topic of MM (which is a valid point), you pretty clearly defined what you consider MM topics but tell us in your understanding what is not a MM topic?
And if you have them post them I will be interested  to hear them.
 


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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1630984 -

disenchantment might account for the mental state of someone who wants to clamp down on tripped out people from talking about tripping.
No one wants to clamp down on anything. Try to read what was written instead of what you think I wrote. I am merely attemnpting to classifying a certain type of thread.

trips can be researched, the research can even be refined in a manner. "testing", of course, plays a factor in research.
So then that would not be MM by definition, now would it? So who are you debating with?

if we are to limit discussion to only really tangible, quantifiable concerns, (which is what I take it you mean by "researched, refined, or tested") then where would you like people to consider any metaphysical issues, if not in the P&S board....?
My desires are irrelevant; post anything that you want.

man, I'm sorry to burst your conservative shell, but many issues, especially those surrounding tripping, require speculation and abstraction.
Conservative? Heh, he, ho, ho, ha! Your psychic and deductive powers are almost non-existent. Disciplined and structured in thought has nothing to do with radical, liberal or conservative mindframes.

What I think is actually bugging you is nothing more that untrained exuberance.
I am not "bugged" at all my pseudo-psychoanalyst friend.

people are excited about the new world! it's in the trip, an evangelical urge... why restrict discussion to can be known?
Once again, classification is not restriction.

...that's not a very good way to learn new things.
By my defintion, MM is the talking about a subject in which it is impossible to learn anything.

I, for one, think that there may very well be alot we can learn from tripping if, out of the many subjective accounts, consensus where to arise as to the real nature and message of the trip. deciphering god's language.
Is not a pyschotic break, where one end's up in the emergency room; as "real" as any other trip? Is not the message that "Arrrggghhh! Bugs are crawling out of my eyes!" as real as "My cactus spoke to me,"?



--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: LOBO]
    #1631024 -

What I don?t understand, from you Swami is,
There is no need to understand the persona of Swami. It is irrelevant here.

that if you feel so strong that most of the topics in this forum are MM, and that most of the topics belong in the SF forum, why you hang around so much here?
My personal motivation is not the topic.

(I am beginning to believe that deep inside you do believe in this things but a part of you does not want to admit it )
Believe what you want. That doesn't make it true.

They way I see this forum, is about spirituality related to the mushroom experience (that?s why is call the shroomery) Is logical to expect wacky things in this forum!
I fully expect wackiness here also.

For most of Us, I will say 90% we have experiences and feelings that can not be explained so easy, by normal standards of reasoning.
Primitive man found many things in his world that he could not comprehend, so he made up totally ridiculous stories to explain things rather than admitting ignorance. Later, rational tools were developed to explain these things such as earthquakes, fire, rain, lightning, star movement, night and day; etc. This is called reasoning and can eventually be applied to ALL natural phenomenon.

A lot of us are searching with in our self and searching into different sates of consciousness, that frankly baffles my mind.
Are things any clearer after your discussions here?

To tell us to take some of this topics and bring it to the SF forum is very arrogant from your part, as arrogant if some one will tell you to go to the skeptic forum.
How many people have you met that can move physical objects with their mind? How has discussing telekinesis brought us any closer to an understanding of how to do it and what the mechanism of this (non-existent) phenomenon is? Whether I am arrogant or not, has nothing to do with the fact that many topics covered (mine included!) not only lead nowhere, but that it is impossible for them to do so.

We all come here to share and yes some end up being MM (my self and Swami included), but also for some people the shroomery is one of the only outlet that they have to bring there questions and insights, I don?t see the point in putting down so much .
Putting down? Sometimes a fact is a fact. If I said that someone who was 100 pounds overweight was obese, you could say that I was being insulting, but the person would still be fat whether I spoke it out loud or not.

Now going back to your topic of MM (which is a valid point), you pretty clearly defined what you consider MM topics but tell us in your understanding what is not a MM topic?
Any topic in which a sharing of ideas, facts, and research will add to the body of human knowledge.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

Edited by Swami (06/13/03 10:50 AM)

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Swami]
    #1631096 -

The thing is Swami, and we can go on and on with this topic,(just like another MM), but frankly in my opinion when it comes to the Human experience of self and how our self fits in the scheme of this Universe, reason and intellect (thou grate tools) fall very short in giving me a complete explanation.
If they work for you and you are content with it, I am happy for you, and I mean it.
For my part day by day am less sure of any explanation I try to live and experience things instead.


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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: LOBO]
    #1631115 -

For my part day by day am less sure of any explanation I try to live and experience things instead.

Reason and intellect are hardly mutually exclusive from living and experiencing. Do you think that rationalists have no experiences?

Interpretation of your experiences requires some tools. If not reason, then what do you use?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Swami]
    #1631162 -

Quote:
Interpretation of your experiences requires some tools. If not reason, then what do you use?


I wish I could answer you, but I can?t, something is missing.
Intellect and reason like I said fall short could even entrap the self.
Perhaps has to do with some type of integration of all the "systems" to get the hole picture.
If I really new I wouldn't be jiba jabing here so much.


--------------------

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Sclorch]
    #1633400 -

Quote:
And it's only not MM to you "fellows"... whatever...

wrong. it's reasonable to assume that without an axe to grind, the typical person wouldn't feel the need to walk up to a conversation about, say, god, and label the participants "masterbaters".  you would have to be Hyper-Rational Man to do that.

Coughcoughelitismcoughcoughhackto

there's nothing coughable about believing in the trip experience... I don't mind the connotations that hoffer attached to the phrase...

Moving along...

I think Near Death Experience is a misnomer...
"Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades. :wink:.

and reason too.  don't you think?

I'm 23, is that old?

old to me... just throwing things out, as old people tend to espouse similar maxims.

dis?en?chant    ( P )  Pronunciation Key  (dsn-chnt)
tr.v. dis?en?chant?ed, dis?en?chant?ing, dis?en?chants
To free from illusion or false belief; undeceive.
You're right, I am (we are?).
What's the problem here, officer?b]

I obviously used the word in a specific sense, as in disenchanted from the sacredness or relevance of the mushroom trip.  that's a problem to me.

I've grown them and picked them... taken them MANY MANY times.

well, that rules that out.

What, like 5 grams on an empty stomach?  Been there, done that.
For the record, except for a half dozen times, I've never taken less than 2 grams (yes, I have a scale - I'm an anal-retentive bastard and I've also kept a record in my trip journal of every trip after my first 14

uh... dude, if you've tripped so many times, you might have to increase doses.  or not, it depends on what you're looking for. 

either there's something there that is worthwhile, or not.... if there isn't a justification for faith in the trip, then maybe I'm just wrong.    this really seems to boil down to levels of mysticism.... I think that shrooms are mystical, you don't.

Actually, it is up to it. 
I suppose I qualify as a scientist... so I can tell you that the scientific method can most certainly be applied to psychedelic endeavors.  Maybe the aliens don't mess with me because I'm mad skilled with the scientific method... and maybe because I've developed a potion that renders one immune to their Gee Neural Dissa Ray guns (who knows?).


well,  I think that there's a higher awareness that human conceptualization will fuck with, so conventional science isn't requisite. 


maybe if para-psychology was actually funded...
Calling Dr. Venkman... calling Dr. Venkman... please report to the S&P forum on the double!

"metal masterbation"
Isn't that a Metallica song?

this _is_ a site about mushrooms, remember.....
"This site was created to help stop the spread of dangerous misinformation related to magic mushrooms..."
Yeah, we're doing OUR part...

no, I don't think that telling people that empirical evidence ought to catow to reason in all circumstances, creating the need to chastize those who find revelation in a trip is preventing misinformation.
____________________________


as to my reading comprehension.... it's excellent.  no, really, thanks for your concern, but I've got it covered.

if there is a god, mushrooms are made by it. 


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1633410 -

to swami-


"Disciplined and structured in thought has nothing to do with radical, liberal or conservative mindframes."

then there is no right politics? then political phil. is a moot point, a "MM"?

sorry, that other post took all my time.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1633529 -

Sclorch: And it's only not MM to you "fellows"... whatever...
Malachi: wrong. it's reasonable to assume that without an axe to grind, the typical person wouldn't feel the need to walk up to a conversation about, say, god, and label the participants "masterbaters". you would have to be Hyper-Rational Man to do that.
It would depend on the conversation itself.
Pondering isn't Mental Masturbation.

Sclorch: I think Near Death Experience is a misnomer...
"Almost" only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades.
and reason too. don't you think?
No.  There is no "almost reasonable".

uh... dude, if you've tripped so many times, you might have to increase doses. or not, it depends on what you're looking for.
I typically take 3 grams (that's not a light dose).  I don't trip all that much anymore, so tolerance is not an issue.  Trust me, I get to the same place you do when I trip, maybe I just don't trust everything I experience in an altered state of mind.

either there's something there that is worthwhile, or not.... if there isn't a justification for faith in the trip, then maybe I'm just wrong. this really seems to boil down to levels of mysticism.... I think that shrooms are mystical, you don't.
Don't reduce this to a matter of opinion.
If you think a discussion/debate with me on this subject will somehow jeopardize your current paradigm and that is something you don't want to risk, then I understand... we can stop right here.

well, I think that there's a higher awareness that human conceptualization will fuck with, so conventional science isn't requisite.
What makes you think this?
Just curious.

no, I don't think that telling people that empirical evidence ought to catow to reason in all circumstances, creating the need to chastize those who find revelation in a trip is preventing misinformation.
I really can't decipher what you're trying to say here.
Look into proofreading. :wink:

as to my reading comprehension.... it's excellent. no, really, thanks for your concern, but I've got it covered.
Well, the proof is in the pudding.

if there is a god, mushrooms are made by it.
How do you figure?   


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Sclorch]
    #1633568 -

1.Pondering seems to be exactly what swami meant by MM....the act of pondering seems to imply the lack of an answer (or eventual answer). If there was an orgasm of results waiting, then it wouldn't be pondering. Perhaps you could supply an EXPLAINATION for your view.

2.right, proximity isn't taken into consideration in reason. whatever man, that's just wrong. unreasonable, even. the understanding of the relation that shades of grey have to each other is what reason is about. REASON IS NOT A MAXIM FROM WHICH YOU CAN DERIVE ANSWERS!! KANT WAS A CHRISTIAN, FOR CHIRSTSSAKE! in other words, using "reason" as a tool to make two big categories, reasonable and unreasonable, is itself unreasonable. it's all about the almost.

3. I think that there's more to 'tolerance' than most people think. psychological tolerance to the opposite of reason, i.e. the trip.

4.I'm not trying to reduce anything, just trying to be nice.

5.I believe this because of the trip. this, of course, is why I don't think that you "go to the same place" as I do. where I go is unreasonable and reasonable. i think that it 'makes sense', but it seems that the sense that it makes presupposes- and invalidates- MY (our) "reason".

condescension, condescension, condescension.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1633941 -

Ok, I grok - and will concede your point as it is written and within context.

But...

Since when is the bandying about of ideas as to the nature of experience to be considered a worthless activity? I totally agree that you cannot truly qualify or quantify the experiences expressed here (largely in the S&P forum), but the fact remains that people have had experiences that fall outside of their daily 'reality' and would like to gain perspective on them.

Are we not convinced that a good portion of our sensory input and the resultant desicion making that occurs comes not only from direct (and therefor quantifiable) stimuli, but also from indirect (which I will here refer to as intuitive) stimuli? I believe our intuition is the other %90 of our brain (to use a common metaphor) that is working behind the scenes, if you will, picking up external stimuli and balancing that stimuli against our experiences, ideals, moral and idealogical filter systems, and even our semi-conscious thoughts and perceptions of a situation. That 90% then feeds its conclusions to the %10 and viola... we have a thought or idea, or maybe come to a conclusion.

I think that by participating in this Mental Masturbation, we might actually be feeding that 90% that keeps us in the know, that makes most of our decisions for us, that comes to conclusions for us - that generally drives our processes. Are the conversations pointless in that they can never truly be resolved? Certainly. Are they pointless in that they serve no function whatsoever?

Not even a little bit.


--------------------
There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
  --  Howard Zinn

Edited by GernBlanston (06/14/03 09:39 PM)

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Swami]
    #1634203 -

Quote:
This has been a Public Service Announcement



:grin: :grin: :grin:


--------------------
And the gameshow host rings the buzzer (brrnnntt) oh and now you get a face full of face!

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: GernBlanston]
    #1634286 -

Not sure if you were replying to me or Malachi - you might want to clarify in the future.

Are they pointless in that they serve no function whatsoever?

They serve a function of stimulating imagination and social interaction, but do not lead to any greater knowledge.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1634390 -

Aliens
Rods
Telepathy
Telekinesis
Psychic (abilities)
UFO
Crop Circles

Okay.... out of all that jibber-jabbering, what has been accomplished?
Do we have ANY sort of consensus? No.
Do we have ANY evidence? No.
Did ONE person accept the Swami and/or James Randi challenge(s)? No.
Have we learned ANYTHING new about any of that? No.

So, was any of that constructive?


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Sclorch]
    #1634491 -

ok, it's not like anyone is trying to defend the existence of aliens. You're totally building a straw man.

the objection is that is that masterbation isn't such a bad thing. it's stimulating. it's the 00's man... get in touch with your mental sexuality....


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Malachi]
    #1634501 -

ok, it's not like anyone is trying to defend the existence of aliens.

Naw, just the longest thread ever on the S&P forum dedicated to MM and aliens. Do a back search.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.

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Re: Mental Masturbation [Re: Swami]
    #1634527 -

Here's the back search... for the lazy people.  :wink:
Just say no to 'Aliens' threads

edit: Damn links...
 


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...

Edited by Sclorch (06/15/03 02:55 AM)

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General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
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