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Offlineshaniatwain
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1611757 - 06/05/03 03:40 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

what a saga!!!!!!!!!!!!! :shocked: 


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yep.....


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1612019 - 06/05/03 05:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Membranous means that it's sort of like a piece of skin. Try searching the net a bit for Amanita phalloides and find some pics with a good view of the volva on them.

Something that might be helpful would be if you could cut the stem and volva in half vertically and show us what that looks like in cross section.

BTW, var alba often has the warts washed off, so a bald cap doesn't disqualify it. A prominent membranous, saccate volva would.

Unfortunately, going through those keys from the Amanita site, they are very preliminary, incomplete, and depend heavily on microscopic features. All of the keys I've found, when you say it bruises reddish-pinkish, point immediately to Amanita rubescens of one variety or another.

Maybe we go with the guess of Amanita mutabilis, which isn't in any of my keys. At least it looks somewhat like your photos.


Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1613126 - 06/05/03 11:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

here you go my friends, more specimens found, under oak in a ranch:


please up the gamma on this one, i loaded the uncorrected pic


MEMBRANOUS SACCATE VOLVA






just some shitty shots i took today.  hope it it'll help. i gave up on the tricholomataceae hopefully i (we) can get this one.  :smile: 


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1613441 - 06/06/03 01:21 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Those photos are a great improvement over the old ones.

Could you also cut the small one at the far left in the first photo in half vertically, then scrape the inside with the knife edge to bruise it, let it change color, then show us what that looks like?

Based on what I see those are in section Phalloidae. They key out as Amanita virosa group. I can almost hear you saying that that species doesn't bruise pink/red, but none of my keys even mention bruising for all-white mushrooms in section Phalloidae.

I'm going to suggest you try doing a Meixner test. Get some newspaper. Squeeze a drop of juice from the mushroom onto the paper. Allow it to dry, but don't heat it or allow it to be exposed to sunlight. Draw a circle around the drop with a pencil, and draw another circle nearby for a control. Put a drop of concentrated hydrochloric acid in both circles (you can get hydrochloric acid at a hardware store - they sell it as muriatic acid for cleaning concrete). A positive reaction is a bluish color, usually in 15-20 minutes, definitely within an hour. This test is a *very* senisitive test for amatoxins, detecting 20 micrograms of amatoxins per milliliter of juice. You can set up the juice on the newsprint tonight and get the acid tomorrow which would save a little time, although it's pretty late/early there now and you probably won't see this until morning.

On the negative side, about half of all Amanita virosa specimens tested this way showed there were no amatoxins in them (not all of them have it). But this test is not known to give false positives for any Amanitas. So if you get a positive reaction then you know it's one of the species close to Amanita virosa. From there we need microscopic examination to separate the species.

Looking through Tulloss' key, the first thing we'd need to know is the spore size and shape, which requires a microscope. So, unless you have access to one, we're not going to get much farther there.

Another possibility is that you could overnight a couple of them to me. I'll look at them, and Sunday and Monday I'm going to be around Dr Michael Beug, and maybe I can get him to give an opinion. If I run into her I may also be able to get Vera Evenson to take a look at them. In any event I can do the microscope work and post results, which would at least let us go through Tulloss' key to the Phalloidae.

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1614575 - 06/06/03 02:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

thanks a lot man!!! i really appreciate it! :laugh:

they are drying out, but i bet if i went out somewhere today i would find more of this species.

also: only ONE specimen bruised pink. it was quite old. the small ones or other old one did NOT bruise pink.

eh they are all quite maggot infested, especially after putting water on them last night.

i just started this test with extremely concentrated hydrochloric acid. it smells a mile away and is 31.5% HCl i will get back in about 2.5-3 hours. thank you for the help.

i am in a hurry but i might say that the bruising specimen might have been a different species, becuase none of the other bruised. although they would have to be horrendously similar.

thanks again my man. 


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1614598 - 06/06/03 02:47 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I'm pretty sure that you know this already, but I'll say it because somebody else might read this thread who doesn't know.

DO NOT EAT!!!!1!

Those mushrooms are very probably deadly poison.

Amatoxin poisoning is a nasty way to die. It usually takes 7-10 days to die of it, from liver failure.

If prompt medical attention is sought, the survival rate is good (about 90%).

Again, I think you know better, but I think that warning should appear in any thread with a potenitally deadly mushroom.

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1615689 - 06/06/03 10:56 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

hehe yea i know...in poland most stay from ALL amanitas, they are too scared.

results of the test:

i poured a LOT of HCl on to the paper and it still smells but what i found in the mushroom tested circle is light spots of very light black, so grayish (could be any dark color) where the puddles of mushroom juice were. but they are evident blackish spots when placed in good light. the control showed no such stains.

so i guess we have some AMATOXINS on our hands....now what!?

i am making good spore prints right now, and if we could get that spore mail going i would be happy to do so, althought my wallet is somewhat thin at the moment.

DO NOT EAT!!!!!!!


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1615702 - 06/06/03 11:05 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

You only need a drop of acid in each circle. A blue color is positive, other colors are negative. And it's only positive if only the mushroom circle turns blue. Some newsprint will turn blue with or without the mushroom juice.

If you got a positive reaction, then that would pertty much confirm that your specimens are Amanita virosa (or one of its very close relatives).

A negative reaction doesn't rule out the ID, since apparently about half of the specimens of Amanita virosa don't have amatoxins.

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1615801 - 06/07/03 12:29 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

ok so how about that little overnight gimmick? i may try to do the test again tomorrow again with a little more patience.

UNTIL LATER




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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1617367 - 06/08/03 12:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

couldnt i pour a drop of acid ONTO the mushroom or a small piece of the mushroom?

toxicman, check your pms please, thanks  :grin: 


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1617468 - 06/08/03 01:40 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

No, the Meixner test is using a combination of the mushroom juice and the lignins in the paper with the hydrochloric acid. According to Dr Benjamin, filter paper works well, and I've been told by Marilyn Shaw that the Wall Street Journal works well (most emergency rooms have a copy of WSJ).

Now you can check your PMs - tag, you're it!

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1618767 - 06/08/03 06:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

toxicman: i will send you the spore print tomorrow (Monday), unfortunately on a piece of computer paper. the paper is somewhat stained from water dripping onto it :frown:. there is still a fair amount of spores on it. sorry for the slopinness. 


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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1627498 - 06/11/03 11:18 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

OK, I got the spore print today.

Here's a photo of the spores. The color cast is because they're mounted in Meltzer's Solution.


They are clearly amyloid, and measure (average) 12.0 x 5.0 microns. The average Q is 2.44. The spore shape is unusual for an Amanita, being cylindric or bacillform. Most Amanitas have nearly globose spores.

Keying them out with Tulloss' key, your mushrooms are Amanita tenuifolia, also known as the Slender Death Angel. Those spores fit right in the middle of the range for spores for this species, so it's a fairly perfect fit. They are deadly poisonous, containing the ever-popular amatoxins. As you already knew, DO NOT EAT, or allow any other person or animal to eat them.

Happy mushrooming!


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Happy mushrooming!


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OfflineMagmaManiac
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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1627596 - 06/11/03 11:58 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

thanks a lot toxicman! this is great! :laugh:

i am glad this worked out. thanks a lot for the id, this feels really great! :grin:

i see that the section worked out perfect and range on Tuloss's key. unfortunately there is not too much information on the internet about this mushroom, but i know what kind of Amanitas are growing all over the place down here.  :cool: 


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