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Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please
    #1603066 -

as i do not have a camera, i will give a detailed written description. any help will be SPLENDID :smile: help a kid out!

i have 2 specimens which closely resemble each other but were growing approx. 5-6 meters apart...i will describe the older specimen.

CAP: 5.7 cm diameter, white, to a very slight off-white-buff, minutely striate on margin in both older and fresh specimen, mildly viscid when moist, no signs of volva remanents on cap, convex to plane, smooth cap, older specimen bruising PINK-RED moderately, heavily for amanita sp., especially gills bruising heavily after washing off from dirt, center of cap also bruising slightly, flesh white

GILLS: ADNEXED, off-white to slightly buff, close

SPORE PRINT: WHITE

STALK: tapering upward, bruising PINK slightly (strong for amanita), very smooth for young specimen, very slightly rough for older specimen but mostly smooth, white to minutely off-white for old, 5.8 cm from top of volva X 0.6-1.0 cm diameter, flesh white

VOLVA(UV): sac-like, thin and flabby on top although closely adheres to stem on bottom 3/4. older specimen also bruises pinkish in volva, slightly wrinkled, probably originally white, but in young EXTREMELY slightly yellowish-brown (perhaps dirt stained), buried in ground

PARTIAL VEIL: almost absent in older specimen: forming slightly roughened areas much less prevelant than p. cubensis, 1 cm from cap, in younger: more prevalent but very thin and short (2-3 mm),

HABITAT: growing in sandy/soily ground with soil covering entire fruiting body, had to wash off with running water, old specimen near pine tree and live oak, younger far away from pine close to live oak, probably associated with live oak, only few trees and low lying plants, about 10-15 meters from lake, on the top of a slight hill, mycorrhizal threads visible.

TADAAAHHH!!

there are SO MANY white amanitas in florida it is overwhelming. upon such close examination my two best assumptions are: Amanita solitariiformis (which has little warts :frown: ), A. hygroscopica (yellowing lamellae in age), or A. longipes (very probable because stem is FLOCCOSE ABOVE which matches my description). these are all white amanitas which are all macroscopically almost as mundane as LBMs here. if i only had a microscopee...

and well, i very much want to id this species because of its frequency around here. if it is possible i would be eternally grateful if someone could examine the spores. this would basically give the species away...there are many spore differences in these amanitas.

also, not knowing if these species are the same, upon examination, i must say there is a fairly good possibility that these two fruits are totally different species...but they are certainly very similar and were growing within 4-5 meters of each other.

p.s. i have not ruled out destroying angel and its various closely related species, but i kind of doubt it...

WOOOHH that took a while and i am tired...PLEASE HELP me out....and reward my efforts at least a little 

Edited by MagmaManiac (06/02/03 10:04 PM)

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1603141 -

someone help me out plz  :blush: ... soon. this is important for me  :grin: 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1603311 -

Nice, detailed description.

Your selection of possible species is interesting, as they are not in the same Sections under Amanita. Amanita solitariiformis (=A. subsolitaria, and listed as that by Tulloss) is in Lepidella, as is A. longipes, but A. hygroscopica is in Phalloidae.

Assuming your specimen is close to Amanita longipes, then it's in Section Lepidella, the most difficult part of Amanita. Another species you might consider is Amanita mutabilis, which bruises conspicuously pink.


I would recommend that we first identify them to Section, then try for species. Here's a list of things to look for, modified slightly from Mushrooms of Northeastern North America:

1. Membranous saccate volva around base of stalk; cap margin striate; gills truncate; spores inamyloid -> Section Vaginatae
1. Membranous saccate volva around base of stalk; cap margin usually nonstriate; gills attenuate in most species; spores amyloid; warts or patches (if present) also membranous -> Section Phalloidae
1. Membranous saccate volva around base of stalk; spores amyloid; warts usually more powdery/mealy than membranous; cap margin usually appendiculate; ring usually absent -> Section Amidella
1. No membranous saccate volva around base of stalk ->2

2. Cap margin striate; gills usually truncate; spores inamyloid; ring and basal bulb both absent -> Section Vaginatae
2. Cap margin striate; gills truncate; spores inamyloid; ring or partial veil usually but not always present; basal bulb present -> Section Amanita
2. Cap margin nonstriate; gills usually attenuate; spores amyloid; basal bulb present -> 3

3. Marginate or submarginate bulb present -> Section Phalloidae
3. Warts or powdery patches usually visible on cap and/or stalk base; cap usually white, cream, or gray; basal bulb usually large -> Section Lepidella
3. Small warts or powdery patches usually visible on cap or on stalk base; cap usually distinctly colored; basal bulb usually small -> Section Validae

Hopefully, that should get you to the Section you need.


To test for amyloid you can use ordinary Tincture of Iodine that you can purchase from the grocery store in the area where they sell first aid stuff. To test the spores without a microscope, make a spore print on a piece of glass or porcelain (not paper), scrape the spores into a tiny pile, and put a drop of iodine on them. An amyloid reaction is dark blue to almost black. An inamyloid reaction will just be reddish. A sample amyloid reaction can be seen with a piece of raw potato.


Here's a link to a set of keys Dr. Tulloss has published on the Internet for Amanita. They're keys for professional mycologists so they're pretty technical, but if you want to identify an Amanita that's not one of the easier ones then that's probably a good place to go. Also, that server isn't the fastest, so you might have to be patient.

It would probably also be worth your while to poke around the pages he set up about Amanita and see if you find anything else useful.


Hopefully that gets you started. Keep us posted

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1603935 -

thanks very much toxicman, lots of good stuff :cool:

that link you gave me kicks ass! ive never seen such detailed amanita descriptions

but what really gets me is the truncate or attenuate gills. truncate means a "larger portion ending as if cut off, having the end square," while attenuate means "gradually narrowed." does this mean, when cutting the cap in half and looking at the gills from the side, if they gradually narrow towards the stem or are more 'cut off?' if that is the way you do it, then the gills are most likely attenuate...

otherwise, i am going to go to the grocery soon, if not now, to get that tincture of iodine. im saying this is a Phalloidae before i can confirm it with the iodine because the cap is definetaly not appendiculate (margin of cap fringed with hanging fragments of the veil; (of cystidium) having an appendage; (of a spore) having one or more setulae) which is characteristic of Section Amidella.

again, thanks for the help toxic, i will keep posted.




 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1604157 -

Rodham Tulloss is considered the authority on Amanita for good reasons. When the other professionals have a question about an Amanita they go to him.

You got the meaning of truncate and attenuate right. That's what's intended.

The meaning of appendiculate is the first of the three you listed. Be careful when they use words like "usually" or "often". In a key like that they mean that if it's not that it doesn't necessarily mean there's any disagreement.

Glad that was all of help. Let us know how it goes.

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1604221 -

ufortunately the spore print i got was very weak. i scraped it off of paper and and put it in a shot glass. i got the 2% tincture of iodine at Walgreens because they did not have it at the grocery store (publix or albertson's). i inserted about 3-4 drops of iodine onto the very small amount of spores because they were hard to work with and scattered.

first question is: is the iodine a dark almost black color or more of a brown color to yellow color when it is thin on the glass? becuase i may have contaminated the bottle although i doubt such a small amount of spores would contaminate it. when i first dropped the iodine on a piece of paper it was black with faint purple.

anyway, i dropped in the iodine and the spores darkened tremendously after a while, turning to a very dark color, perhaps brownish and SLIGHTLY reddish if anything. no blue colors i could find.

woo the iodine is making me sneeze.

the iodine is brown-tan colored and goldenrod collored where it is thin on the edges etc. if anything the 'solution' is red, and far from blue or purple. im going with inamyloid but the gills are definately attenuate...doesnt match much. and your key only says "gills truncate," and nothing indicates that usually they are...

i believe i saw a small oval-shapped button growing still in the volval stage next to the larger specimen so i will go back there tonight and check it out. perhaps i can get a very good spore print from that and do a serious test. the smaller fruit did not drop a spore print overnight.

toxicman or anyone else: do you have any suggestions or revelations based on the results of my sloppy iodine test?  :crazy:: 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1604324 -

One of the things you need to avoid is having the spores on paper, because sometimes the paper is amyloid and will confuse the results. That would explain the blue-black reaction you got with the paper. A glass slide is good (like a microscope slide) because you can put it in front of whatever color you want to see good contrast.

If you have a magnifier of any sort it will probably help in seeing the results. Of course, a microscope is best, because then you can do it with a gill piece.

The color of the iodine by itself is reddish-orangish-brownish (it smells wonderful, doesn't it - at least it isn't too strong). If you've got some raw potato around you can see the amyloid reaction so you know exactly what to look for.

Since the amyloid reaction is very black and white (blue-black and red-orange?), I'd probably rate it as more important than attenuate vs truncate gills, since that's relatively speaking a judgement call.

To help coax a spore print out of a specimen it often helps to get the humidity way up. Here in Colorado it's very dry, so I often will put my specimens printing into a 1-gallon ziploc bag to let the humidity get high and encourage spore production. Other things used are placing a cup or bowl over the specimen. If the specimen is a bit dry, you can also sprinkle a little water on it to help moisten it up. Of course, in Florida I can't imagine that you'd ever have humidity too low for anything.

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1604543 -

i will pick the other specimen today in the evening and get back to this then. time to go find some potatoes.

if anyone else can give some info/incite/tips please DO!

Edited by MagmaManiac (06/03/03 12:34 PM)

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1604817 -

Probably A. mutabilis or another synonymous Amanita specie.

Nothing edible.

Keep shroomin,
GG

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #1605834 -

A. mutabilis is a fair id/guess....but im not looking for this to be edible im just very in-tuned to id this mushroom...

i went back to the spot (about 1 minute from my house walking) and found 3 more specimens. the bad news is one of them was fully developed yet shriveled and about 1and a half inches tall (it has been dry and hasnt rained more than 0.5 inches in a very long time). two other specimens were early in develepment but already showing signs of dwarfing because of this dry weather. they were all growing closer to the younger specimen i found earlier. i am leaving them to grow until at least tomorrow morning, then i will take a spore print.

please bare with me, my friends, and help me out :smile:
 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1605882 -

just to add: A. mutabilis is in section Lepidella....the first position on the key toxicman gave me goes on to when the mushroom has no "membranous saccate volva." what exactly is the definition of this and from my description is my volva membranous AND saccate. i know it looks like a sack.

the basal bulb is not large in my specimens and there are NO remenants of volva on the cap... also the stem is quite a bit thinner than A. mutabilis in the description. the rest of the mushroom seems to indicate this is the species, especially the bruising and shape and size of the annulus.

grrrr....once i get the section correct i will be able to use this key which should be great:

http://pluto.njcc.com/~ret/amanita/key.dir/nekey.pdf

anyway, im getting long-whinded with this mushroom....i have a great determination to id it correctly or at least very closely.

thanks.

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1606048 -

Quote:
anyway, im getting long-whinded with this mushroom....



-yeah you are.  :cool: :cool: :cool: 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: GGreatOne234]
    #1606352 -

so does this mean no more help :frown:? 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1606365 -

anyway:

i scraped out the spores after the iodine dried and smeared them onto white paper. they are brown-reddish, like burnt sienna. fairly deep brown with a tinge of red. so im guessing they are inamyloid. i will confirm this tomorrow with other specimens. good night.

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1606401 -

I think GG is yanking your chain a little. :grin:

Yes, you're correct that Amanita mutabilis is in Section Lepidella, and doesn't have a membranous saccate volva. If your specimen has one then it's something else.

A good rule to remember when identifying a difficult specimen is to always start at the high end of the tree and work your way down. Do family first, then genus, then section (if appropriate), then finally species. Too many beginners try to get to species immediately, because it almost appears that experienced identifiers are doing that. To them it looks like somebody hands me a mushroom and I just say it's whatever. Unless it's a really distinctive species, I always go through the whole set of steps.

If things are drying out there, you might consider dumping a bucket of water on the location to help keep it moist. I know people here who water logs and stumps producing oyster mushrooms so they'll keep producing. It works relly well.

Keep us posted.

Happy mushrooming! 


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1607254 -

beh...i woke up at 630 today and couldnt sleep...

so i went back to THE spot. and there were 3 more fruits growing, but all of dwarfed size, preumably because of the dryness.

i am taking the spore print now and ill do THE test on them when i get it.

your right, toxic. i find myself going straight to the species and/or genera too fast because i cant get anything out of a key and/or i get frustrated and/or i dont get enough sleep.

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1608728 -

i got beautiful spore prints from the two amanita sp. i picked this morning. so i scraped them and poured an iodine drop on them

The spores are Amyloid. they turned black a few minutes after the test, much like the raw potato (a raw potato did it much faster however).

this leaves two sections of Amanita:

1. Membranous saccate volva around base of stalk; cap margin usually nonstriate; gills attenuate in most species; spores amyloid; warts or patches (if present) also membranous -> Section Phalloidae
1. Membranous saccate volva around base of stalk; spores amyloid; warts usually more powdery/mealy than membranous; cap margin usually appendiculate; ring usually absent -> Section Amidella

the margin of the mushroom is striate on the extreme margin of the cap, about 2mm. in today's specimens it is even less visible. the cap are not appendiculate, but the gills are attenuate. the ring is small and not prominent.

the usage of the 'usually' and 'mostly' in the key really stumps me...both descriptions have one 'usually' description in them that goes against the description of this mushroom. BUT...

since this amanita is so minutely striate and the gills ARE attenuate, i would probably go with Phalloidae. but this again has a small amount of basis. im going to get the camera now.

any suggestion?  :cool:



 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1609251 -

BAD pics of the amanita i found a few days ago and this morning (same species)

the mottled dark mushroom is the large specimen from 2 days ago. that has been throwed out a window once and waterlogged twice. it is very darkened from drying and handling/bruising red.

the two others were picked this morning. the stem and volva only are from a few hours ago but very dried because of the conditions and maggot-ridden.

the two very thin stems are from two days ago. one of them is from the mottled mushroom and the other if from the 'younger specimen' that i collected two days ago. the cap from it is fully dried and unidentifiable.





no more pics out of my 400kb for today :frown:

id really like to get this id done if possible so please give me some input.

if you really dont want to then dont....but you know; DO IT 

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: MagmaManiac]
    #1609777 -

The amyloid spores mean that they are in subgenus Lepidella. That leaves us with sections Lepidella, Amidella, Phalloideae, and Validae.

Are there warts on the cap to the right in the photo? I can't quite tell if there are warts or the cap is dirty.


At least for the moment I think I'm going to go with Amanita rubescens var. alba for these. That would put them in Validae, and would say that those are likely to be warts in the photo.

Quoting Arora, "it is an exasperatingly variable Amanita."

Of course it doesn't help that his description actually covers two species, since Tulloss and Lindgren assigned species status to Amanita novinupta, a western version of A. rubescens, after the current edition of Arora's book.


Any way, let us know if that seems possible.

Happy mushrooming!


--------------------
Happy mushrooming!

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Re: Amanita Find in West Central Florida ID please [Re: ToxicMan]
    #1611223 -

sorry my man, but there are NO warts on any of the caps i found. what you saw was dirt on the cap or the hole that is in the cap from a parasite. there is however a saccate volva. i am not sure about the membranous part because im not sure what the means, so i think it would be either Phalloideae or Amidella. in the last (maggot-infested) specimen i found the saccate volva was even somewhat bulbous, but this was not observed in the other amanitas.

there is no way this is rubescens (unless the variations are huge)
there is a distinctive saccate volva, not a bulbous base, this does not coincide with sec. Validae. i understand the variation in the species, but this is not A. rubescens var alba. although alba means white i presume, the mushroom still has patches, which this one doesnt. also the stem is MUCH thinner, even thinner than the thin A. rubescens species i saw earlier. of course on my pics the stem are dried but they were thinner than any measurement of A. rubescens.

so, do you think this means they are in either Amidella or Phalloideae?



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