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Separation of Church and State?
    #16080197 -

In this thread regarding the repercussions of Rick Santorum suspending his presidential campaign, a digression over one of the remaining candidate's views evolved into a massive thread derailment. The first post on the topic of separation of church and state was this one. New participants to the discussion should start there and familiarize themselves with the arguments that have already been made to avoid needless repetition.

If anyone would like to add to the discussion re church and state, please do so in this thread, not in the Santorum thread.

Have at it.



Phred


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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Phred]
    #16080881 -

"Separation of Church and State". It's one of those phrases people throw around mindlessly. The same people who are also ranting that there needs to be separation of church and state are the same who demand marriage rights for gay couples. If they are so adamant about the "Separation of Church and State" they why aren't they rallying for the abolition of Marriage altogether? The state issues a license so that two people are granted the privilege of the service of an ordained Minister to marry them. Hello? "Separation of Church and State!!1"  :blindfury:

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Viveka]
    #16080975 -

?
You can get married without any 'ordained minister'.  Not sure what your post means

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Chespirito]
    #16081158 -

Yeah, I originally found this site, which apparently doesn't give the whole picture after doing some more research. And I remember when some of my friends got married a few years back and another became an ordained minister so he could officiate, but I guess that wasn't really necessary.

Though why are ministers or clergymen most often the officiator of a state-licensed ceremony and why do states have specific guidelines indicating that a recognized member of the clergy can perform a marriage? Isn't that mixin' up church and guvamint?

(I won't get into questioning why the state is discriminating against non-married people by granting the married certain privileges, since that is off-topic.)

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Viveka]
    #16081175 -

Viveka said:
"Separation of Church and State". It's one of those phrases people throw around mindlessly. The same people who are also ranting that there needs to be separation of church and state are the same who demand marriage rights for gay couples. If they are so adamant about the "Separation of Church and State" they why aren't they rallying for the abolition of Marriage altogether? The state issues a license so that two people are granted the privilege of the service of an ordained Minister to marry them. Hello? "Separation of Church and State!!1"  :blindfury:


As someone who is adamantly for the separation of church and state and is also adamantly for gay marriage I can answer this. Its because equality trumps separation of church and state.


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:hst:
Society in every form is a blessing,
but government at its best is but a necessary evil 
- Thomas Paine

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #16081315 -

Really? Or is it possibly because "separation of church of state" is more an emotional sentiment than a well considered position? Why do you allow further compromise to your adamant support for the "separation of church and state" by further dignifying the "separation of church and state"-defying institution of Marriage? What about the equality of the married vs. the non-married? Why should the married be granted rights that the non-married do not have? Why are you not concerned about that inequality?

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: gluke bastid]
    #16081446 -

gluke bastid said:
Viveka said:
"Separation of Church and State". It's one of those phrases people throw around mindlessly. The same people who are also ranting that there needs to be separation of church and state are the same who demand marriage rights for gay couples. If they are so adamant about the "Separation of Church and State" they why aren't they rallying for the abolition of Marriage altogether? The state issues a license so that two people are granted the privilege of the service of an ordained Minister to marry them. Hello? "Separation of Church and State!!1"  :blindfury:


As someone who is adamantly for the separation of church and state and is also adamantly for gay marriage I can answer this. Its because equality trumps separation of church and state.


No it's not; it's because there's 2 different institutions of marriage. There's the religious institution of marriage, and then there's the civic institution of marriage. One is operated by the religious organizations, the other is operated purely by the government. Since we can't force religious organizations to marry gays against their religious beliefs, gays would likely get married under the secular, non-theistic, government-related, civic institution of marriage.


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https://www.instagram.com/junelilac1/

https://www.reddit.com/user/asianvixen4u

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Crystal G]
    #16081497 -

Government out of marriage.

end subsidies for hetero marriage.

marriage should be private between any consenting individuals.


The issue is that heteros get unfair subsidy that gays want too, not that 2 gays cant bond and live together.

the issue is about extra refunded money, not spiritual bonds.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Shins]
    #16081731 -

yes

And this may not apply but I don't see how the govt gets away with making religion tax exempt. :confused:


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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Icelander]
    #16081773 -

As long as they dont favour one over the other it could be percieved legal...


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Shins] * 1
    #16081883 -

Shins said:
Government out of marriage.

end subsidies for hetero marriage.

marriage should be private between any consenting individuals.




I agree exactly 100% with this.  It is a private civil contract.  It should be treated exactly as such when it dissolves.  And there should not be a married category of filing for taxes.  Which is contra to my personal interests but which is nonetheless what would be good for the country.


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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Shins]
    #16082003 -

Shins said:
As long as they dont favour one over the other it could be percieved legal...



Legal maybe but hardly fair or sensible.  How much tax revenue is lost due to this.  Lots, if Frank was alive he'd tell you.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Separation of Church and State? [Re: Phred]
    #16103513 -

says it in the treaty of Tripoli article 11.


full blown proof that there is separation of church and state


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"Can't change the world, unless we change ourselves"

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