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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1994657 - 10/09/03 07:40 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

"We are now forming a Republican form of government. Real Liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon shoot into a monarchy, or some other form of dictatorship."
--Alexander Hamilton

"...democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths."
--James Madison, Federalist No. 10 (arguing in favor of a constitutional republic)

"Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There never was a democracy yet that did not commit suicide."
-- John Adams, 1814

"The adoption of Democracy as a form of Government by all European nations is fatal to good Government, to liberty, to law and order, to respect for authority, and to religion, and must eventually produce a state of chaos from which a new world tyranny will arise."
-- Duke of Northumberland, 1931

"Between a balanced republic and a democracy, the difference is like that between order and chaos."
-- John Marshall, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court

"I have long been convinced that institutions purely democratic must, sooner or later, destroy liberty or civilization, or both."
-- Thomas Babington Macaulay

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until a majority of voters discover that they can vote themselves largess out of the public treasury."
-- Alexander Tytler

"Democracy is a form of worship. It is the worship of jackals by jackasses."
-- H.L. Mencken

"It had been observed that a pure democracy if it were practicable would be the most perfect government. Experience had proved that no position is more false than this. The ancient democracies in which the people themselves deliberated never possessed one good feature of government. Their very character was tyranny; their figure deformity."
-- Alexander Hamilton

"Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage."
-- H.L. Mencken

"Democracy means simply the bludgeoning of the people by the people for the people."
-- Oscar Wilde

"Any political party that includes the word 'democratic' in its name, isn't."
-- Patrick Murray

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance."
-- H.L. Mencken

"If we advert to the nature of republican government, we shall find that the censorial power is in the people over the government, and not in the government over the people."
-- James Madison

"The one pervading evil of democracy is the tyranny of the majority, or rather of that party, not always the majority, that succeeds, by force or fraud, in carrying elections."
-- Lord Acton

"Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few."
-- George Bernard Shaw

"All the civilizations we know have been created and directed by small intellectual aristocracies, never by people in the mass. The power of crowds is only to destroy."
-- Jean de la Fontaine, Fables (1668)

"If all mankind minus one were of one opinion, and only one person were of the contrary opinion, mankind would be no more justified in silencing that one person, than he, if he had the power, would be justified in silencing mankind."
-- John Stuart Mill, On Liberty (1859)

"It is bad to be oppressed by a minority, but it is worse to be oppressed by a majority...from the absolute will of an entire people there is no appeal, no redemption, no refuge but treason."
-- Lord Acton

"The people as a body cannot deliberate. Nevertheless, they will feel an irresistible impulse to act, and their resolutions will be dictated to them by their demagogues... and the violent men, who are the most forward to gratify those passions, will be their favorites. What is called the government of the people is in fact too often the arbitrary power of such men. Here, then, we have the faithful portrait of democracy."
-- Fisher Ames, The Dangers of American Liberty (1805)

"The tendencies of democracies are, in all things, to mediocrity, since the tastes, knowledge, and principles of the majority form the tribunal of appeal."
-- James Fenimore Cooper, The American Democrat (1838)


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995175 - 10/09/03 09:50 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

In anycase, Im watching television.. aimlessly clicking through the channels, when I notice that today's television shows totally emasculate men.

It's amazing really. Everyone is either this warm fuzzy sensitive guy.. or comedic loser.. or some asshole emotional cripple.





I know. I cry myself to sleep thinking about it almost every night.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: ]
    #1995282 - 10/09/03 10:18 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Im not arguing with your quotes, the Duke's is one of my favorites. Im simply asking people to look at what the current reality is. Party lines are blurred, words and ideas have been hijacked and the transmutation that has occured is cresting.

It's all just a fuckload of talk and no action. Meaningless words and demands. And damn, even the talk is becoming trite now. It's really mind numbing.

Hitler, you should be. Unless of course, you enjoy being emasculated and feminized.




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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995334 - 10/09/03 10:34 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

What's wrong with being warm and sensitive? You hurt my feelings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: hongomon]
    #1995364 - 10/09/03 10:43 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I agree that they shouldn't. However, I don't think that drugs is quite as clear-cut as the issue of this thread. There are some reasoned arguments against legalizing drugs, they just don't stand up against the obvious consequences of prohibition, something we should have learned 70 years ago.

But you just cant get my point that they still do criminalize me. It's a moral fear based reaction made by a society. Made by the people that we the people elected.... When you start getting into issues that touch deep into people's brains and hearts.. why do you act so surprised that I say that so many oppose. I mean, Im with you honestly. Im a Christian who thinks it's all pretty silly anyway.

I think that marriage is a commitment not some legal piece of paper and I dont think anyone is being denied the right to experience it. What you are fighting about is money and status. Obtaining legally sanctioned status in the US, the smiling nuclear family and getting health and death benefits. You admit that there are legalities that can preclude the death benefit issue.. so, we boil down to status, acceptance, recognization.. rehumanization.


You said: "You know there's a good chance the majority of the country--and undoubtedly in certain parts of the country--would've supported anti-miscegenation laws back in the sixties, when they were deemed unconstitutional."

I said I didnt known that and evidently the pollsters in your article didnt know that either, stating that in 58, 96% of whites disapproved.. It goes on to talk about current day Alabama and Mississippi, where the battle is still being fought.. it was fought for friggin hundreds of years! Your article even states that 42 states had enacted such laws at one time or another from the 1660s to the 1960s:
""In both instances, the good news was that past provisions were removed, but the somewhat disturbing news was that the majority of whites voted to maintain those provisions. It was only because of the force of distant white opinion and the majority of blacks who voted that those provisions were removed from the statute," Kennedy said"

"According to pollsters, 20 percent of white adults still view such state constitutional laws prohibiting interracial marriage with favor," he said. "That is many, many people. Black public opinion is divided on the issue, although a considerable amount is skeptical toward interracial intimacy, if not hostile, toward it. So, as it is with respect to many issues, we face a complicated, ambiguous, painful situation."

I mean, if you cant look at the issue you picked as your rally cry with a little bit of humor considering the article you referenced and the previous posts.. well, I dunno.

I mean, come on.. this is so indicative of what Im talking about. The 1967 decision wasnt made by the people. It was made by a bunch of people in a courtroom in Virginia.

The discourse, such as Sullivan's essay which I think embarrasses social conservatives on this issue, is "working for one's fucking rights like everyone has had to do." Maybe you can explain to me the difference between fucking whining and working for one's fucking rights.

See Sullivan's article.

You people sure like to argue semantics. What was all that collective consciousness permutation stuff at the start of your post?

You seemed to understand that game.

In response to your last question. I dont know how to make you see things in context to the rest of a conversation or discussion. I go on and on about entitlement and wanting everything right now.. now now.. its mine.. mine.. all mine. But Im just talking to myself because you arent getting the gist of what Im saying.



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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: silversoul7]
    #1995365 - 10/09/03 10:45 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Im sorry. I like my men with spines. Manly men. If I wanted a chick, I'd be with one.

It's a rapidly declining commodity.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995380 - 10/09/03 10:50 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

You're right. I don't get the gist of what you're saying. Are you saying that since the majority of the American public don't want gay marriage that that's the end of discussion and we should quit bitching about it? That's what it sounds like to me.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995384 - 10/09/03 10:51 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

There's plenty of frat-boy jocks out here if that's what you're into. I prefer to treat women with respect, however.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: silversoul7]
    #1995403 - 10/09/03 10:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

You can treat women with respect without being a whiny baby.

It's always so easy to say.. oh, there are plenty date rapists and fratboys, have fun.. instead of acknowledging that there is a healthy balance.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995414 - 10/09/03 10:57 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I didn't say anything about being a whiny baby. I asked what was wrong with being warm and sensitive, as in giving a damn about others' feelings.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: silversoul7]
    #1995426 - 10/09/03 11:00 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

No. Im not. Im saying that its all so vapidly melodramatic. And that if you think things are such fine ideas perhaps one should actually act on them.. again, why not start in one state? Why not test the waters instead of broadly claiming that most americans, although numerous polls state otherwise, all have a warm and fuzzy feeling about it. Im not saying they cant come to be more tolerant. But the tone of this is so damn indignant.. and this is something you work at instead of trying to blast it out of bed with a firehose.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995438 - 10/09/03 11:02 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

The sensibility and common sense of legalizing gay marriage has nothing to do with what Americans think of it. BTW, Vermont has already started "testing the waters" of gay marriage.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: silversoul7]
    #1995444 - 10/09/03 11:03 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I didnt say anything about frat boys and jocks either.

"Warm and sensitive" via Faux and the WB are not "giving a damn about others feelings". They are whiny babies who fuss with their hair too much and walked out of an Ambercrombie and Fitch catalog.

Context.


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: silversoul7]
    #1995473 - 10/09/03 11:10 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Hawaii set the precedent with Baerh V Lewin in 93, they have been fighting that same case ever since.

Vermont doesnt call em marriages either.. now does it?



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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995482 - 10/09/03 11:12 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

Vermont doesnt call em marriages either.. now does it?



They can call it whatever they want it, as long as it recognizes the same rights for gay couples as it does for straight couples.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995613 - 10/09/03 11:59 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

I'm glad to hear that you're really with me, and this isn't anything too severe.

So, what is the timeline people should follow in securing their rights?  Honestly, this issue should be a no-brainer.  You haven't offered any reason gay couples should be treated any differently by the state than straight couples.  You talk about democracy, you talk about whiners, you talk about entitlement, WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?

Let's start with this...

It's a moral fear based reaction made by a society. Made by the people that we the people elected.... When you start getting into issues that touch deep into people's brains and hearts..

In my first response to this thread I said that I haven't heard any rational arguments coming from those opposed to legal unions of gays.  I've heard the very pathetic linguistic argument (that almost always, I believe, only conceals ulterior motivation), I've heard a lot of terms like "unnatural", "indecent", even "...because it's wrong"  :confused:, and now from you I hear "because the majority--" --what? isn't ready for it?  Doesn't approve?  Had to work x years longer for that freedom?

You may call the essay emotional b.s. or whatever, but there are some decent questions throughout.  Such as these:

If two lesbian women want to share financial responsibility for each other for life, why is it a conservative notion to prevent this?

If two men who have lived together for decades want the ability to protect their joint possessions in case one of them dies, why is it a conservative notion that such property be denied the spouse in favor of others?

If one member of a young gay couple is badly hurt in a car accident, why is it a conservative notion that his spouse not be allowed to visit him in the intensive-care unit?

Fact is, those are the silly things those gays feel they should be entitled to. 

I don't want to do another point by point, but...

I mean, if you cant look at the issue you picked as your rally cry with a little bit of humor considering the article you referenced and the previous posts.. well, I dunno.

I mean, come on.. this is so indicative of what Im talking about. The 1967 decision wasnt made by the people. It was made by a bunch of people in a courtroom in Virginia.


Three things: first, "rally cry"? eh???  second, what ARE you talking about?  third, the bunch of people in the courtroom did a good job of interpreting the Constitution, don't you think?

Anyway....  Okay, I've thrown a lot of questions out there and you can do with them what you want.  But here's one I'd really appreciate an answer to.  What is the difference between whining and working for one's rights? 


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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995685 - 10/10/03 12:29 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

/me sobs uncontrollably.


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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #1995768 - 10/10/03 12:57 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

PsiloKitten said:
"Warm and sensitive" via Faux and the WB are not "giving a damn about others feelings". They are whiny babies who fuss with their hair too much and walked out of an Ambercrombie and Fitch catalog.





I might figure this out ten minutes later, but...what are Faux and the WB?

faux means fake...WB...Whiny Babies? Still don't get it.


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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: hongomon]
    #1995787 - 10/10/03 01:03 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Fox and Warner Brothers, Two television networks.



P.S. PsiloKitten: If you thought Jack Tripper was masculine, I'd rock your world! :smirk:


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: The State of Our Unions [Re: hongomon]
    #1995800 - 10/10/03 01:09 AM (17 years, 4 months ago)

You dont watch much television do ya?

WarnerBrothers.. WB, the Dawson's Creek, Friends, etc channel

Faux = Fox and all of its multiple channels :smile:

Oh, some more on public support of Civil unions in Vermont:

Boston Phoenix 


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