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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027554 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it. All your examples of DNA creation involve the intention of humans. Show me an example where it happens on its own. That's right you can't.


You know, I'm just now taking cellular/molecular biology so I don't have the exact know how to dismantle this argument, but it seems simple enough to me that the mechanism of natural selection, combined with ongoing DNA mutation would lead to information that appears to be intelligently arranged without the need for a designer. If your theory was correct there wouldn't be any extraneous genetic mutations, no failures. Everything would be perfectly programmed by god.

As someone pointed out earlier, RNA has been formed from inorganic molecules when subjected to the catalyst of electricity. IIRC the experiment was carried out in a lab environment simulating the conditions of early earth, with the electrodes representing volcanic lightning.

But like yourself, I argue with the religious partly b/c I keep an open mind and I'm all ears for your rebuttal.


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A final message to my favorite online community

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: uber_aj] * 1
    #15027583 -

Its weird, because people think they know shit about DNA and molecular biology but reading a couple of books aimed at the general public won't give you the answer. When you eat several biochemistry textbooks and get to know the science behind it very well I can listen and argue. Till then I'll be bombarded with non-consistent arguments that I can destroy in femtoseconds. Proper science isn't easy but its the only way to put an end to this god nonsense.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #15027611 -

rohr said:No unseen omnipotent force necessary



Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:
Ok, I've already explained this about DNA but it seems you guys can't get past your dogma. All instruction, all teaching, all training comes with intent. Someone who writes an instruction manual does so with purpose.


You're incorrigible! :laugh2:

Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:Natural, biological causes are completely lacking as an explanation when programmed information is involved. You cannot find instruction, precise information like this, without someone intentionally constructing it. All your examples of DNA creation involve the intention of humans. Show me an example where it happens on its own. That's right you can't.


Oh, vey. The Miller-Urey Experiment recreated the atmospheric conditions of primitive Earth. The chemicals, water, and electricity were left alone to react with one another inside sealed glass. When the scientists returned to observe the contents, they discovered - *gasp* - organic compounds were formed! The experiment effectively gives you an "example where it happens on its own."

Quote:
shivas.wisdom said:I understand how you feel though, I was an atheist at one time. And like many atheists, the issue of people believing in God bothered me greatly. What is it about atheists that we would spend so much time, attention, and energy refuting something that we don't believe even exists?! What causes us to do that? When I was an atheist, I attributed my intentions as caring for those poor, delusional people... to help them realize their hope was completely ill-founded. To be honest, I also had another motive. As I challenged those who believed in God, I was deeply curious to see if they could convince me otherwise.


If you think I spend time studying science and religious beliefs so that I can find god or whomever, then you don't even remotely understand how I feel, friend.

Why do I spend so much energy refuting something I don't believe in? Short answer: because I love the truth.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: uber_aj]
    #15027616 -

mellowparty said:
At first there was RNA which was both the hardware and software of primitive life.

You just shifted the problem from DNA onto RNA.


uber_aj said:
If your theory was correct there wouldn't be any extraneous genetic mutations, no failures. Everything would be perfectly programmed by god.

As someone pointed out earlier, RNA has been formed from inorganic molecules when subjected to the catalyst of electricity. IIRC the experiment was carried out in a lab environment simulating the conditions of early earth, with the electrodes representing volcanic lightning.

Those 'failures' are not actually failures, only appearing as such to our limited human consciousness.

And that RNA experiment involved the intention of the experimenters. Quantum physics shows us that observation has a direct effect on physical reality. We don't we find random bits of RNA still floating around, randomly created if this can happen so easily?


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: rohr] * 1
    #15027624 -

I never read books with the writer's name in bigger letters than the book's title.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: mellowparty]
    #15027639 -

mellowparty said:
When you eat several biochemistry textbooks and get to know the science behind it very well I can listen and argue. Till then I'll be bombarded with non-consistent arguments that I can destroy in femtoseconds. Proper science isn't easy but its the only way to put an end to this god nonsense.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_intimidation


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027646 -

OK get a biochemist to defend you then.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: mellowparty]
    #15027662 -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027668 -

I have the opportunity  to see him speak at Fort Bragg in march of next year.I'll have to pick up the book and see if i can get it signed.
I love his stuff on youtube.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: mellowparty]
    #15027671 -

Also 3) in your list on page2 is correct.

The chance to get the correct order of randomly added nucleotides in your nucleic acid is equal to n-1 but there are n nucleic acids in the making so one of them will make it and thus pass the correct sequence onto the next generation.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027692 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Those 'failures' are not actually failures, only appearing as such to our limited human consciousness.

And that RNA experiment involved the intention of the experimenters. Quantum physics shows us that observation has a direct effect on physical reality. We don't we find random bits of RNA still floating around, randomly created if this can happen so easily?


That first part seems like a cop-out to me. Please don't take that as an insult/attack, I just don't have faith b/c again, nobody has demonstrated good reasons why i should. To basically claim that Alzheimers, ALS and thousands of additional debilitating genetic disorders are part of god's plan and love only would suggest to me that god is a dick, I'm certainly not going to take it on faith that I'm too dumb to understand it's purpose when I already have a good explanation for it (after all, if god exists than it's him/her/it that gives us reason, no?).

The double slit experiment's results might very well be explained or rejected as a valid hypothesis as our knowledge of quantum physics expands. For now, it seems like every mystically inclined individual proclaims it as undeniable truth that all of reality is subjective. I think it's too early to jump to conclusions on that one.


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A final message to my favorite online community

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: mellowparty]
    #15027697 -

From the same post: (3) may be a remote possibility, but it’s not a scientific explanation in that it doesn’t refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It’s nothing more than an appeal to
luck.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027710 -

shivas.wisdom said:
We don't we find random bits of RNA still floating around, randomly created if this can happen so easily?


Yes because the building blocks for it don't just float around. And it was easy to happen back in the day when the correct conditions were present.


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15027722 -

shivas.wisdom said:
From the same post: (3) may be a remote possibility, but it’s not a scientific explanation in that it doesn’t refer to a systematic, repeatable process. It’s nothing more than an appeal to
luck.


lol you could've included the actual concept of 3)

What it so non-scientific about random code generation and retention of valuable bits?


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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: uber_aj] * 1
    #15027723 -

uber_aj said:
If your theory was correct there wouldn't be any extraneous genetic mutations, no failures. Everything would be perfectly programmed by god.


the christian argument "because god designed it that way"


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: Prisoner#1] * 1
    #15027739 -

Prisoner#1 said:
uber_aj said:
If your theory was correct there wouldn't be any extraneous genetic mutations, no failures. Everything would be perfectly programmed by god.


the christian argument "because god designed it that way"


The freethinker argument "Well then god must be an asshole."


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A final message to my favorite online community

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: uber_aj]
    #15027996 -

uber_aj said:
Prisoner#1 said:
uber_aj said:
If your theory was correct there wouldn't be any extraneous genetic mutations, no failures. Everything would be perfectly programmed by god.


the christian argument "because god designed it that way"


The freethinker argument "Well then god must be an asshole."



and a christian would reply "you're gonna burn in hell for eternity you heathen"

I cant tell you how many times I've hear that


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California Has Legalized Child Prostitution

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #15028040 -

pris is expertly trolling this thread.


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I'm up to my ears in unwritten words. - J.D. Salinger

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: mellowparty]
    #15028060 -

mellowparty said:
@reeferaddict69: You don't really think that evolution is nonsense do you :lol: cause the very thought of someone denying it is so lulzy.

Its not like I came out of the woods with a mystical book that has all the keys and answers to the world. There is an ever increasing body of evidence of epic proportions that describes the way evolution works.  And why is it so goddamn hard to believe we came out of monkeys?


We didn't come from monkeys.  We both came from a common ancestor.

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Re: Richard Dawkins Children's book is out [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #15028178 -

shivas.wisdom said:
Quantum physics shows us that observation has a direct effect on physical reality.


No it doesn't, quantum physics makes predictions about the activity of extremely small subdivisions of matter.  The stuff about our "observation" directly affecting reality is a load of new age BS.  Let me guess, you watched the What the Bleep Do We Know cult film and had your mind blown?  Show me an example of how "observation has a direct effect on physical reality".

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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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