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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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Mathematical proof of existence ???
    #13850768 -

Just caught the back end of the film Proof, and the part at the end where Gwyneth Paltrow solves the problem and goes to show her father played by a mentally ill Anthony Hopkins. He thinks he has solved the same problem and asks her to go over his solution. As her character reads it aloud it is a mixture of algebra and abstract language that is basically gobble-dee-gook, but I couldn't help but be a bit :strokebeard: by this and started wondering how we would ascribe mathematical values to the problem of consciousness and existence

  I found something on wiki about something called the Yang-Mills theory. Does anyone know even a about this, as even a little insight would be helpful ?


--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Brainstem]
    #13850973 -

Just finished a book called "The Quantum Enigma" about the link between quantum mechanics and the role that consciousness plays in the results of various tests.  It wasn't the greatest, but still had some good food for thought.  Right meow we have no way of describing how or why consciousness manifests, but quantum theory points strongly to the fact that how if observe something, it has a great impact on what is observed.  There's a good BBC Horizon on the nature of reality that recently aired, you can find torrents, and they address your question directly.  One of the more radical views, although it's been shared in the past by other philosophers and mathematicians, is a platonic relationship between humans and math.  Essentially we didn't invent shit when it comes to math.  The fact that our entire existence can be described by a few sets of equations and the fact that they describe our universe with much greater detail than any other language leads some to believe that the universe is math and we're slowly peeling away at its layers; we're discovering the formulas inherent to existence of any form, whether it be pure energy or a highly evolved conscious being.


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Did he dream about dragons? Did he dream about deer? Did he whisper  he names of friends who were near?
What songs did they play, and how far away? Why did he whisper, why did she scream?
What does the sound of a screen door mean?
Who talks on the hill? Who goes to the cellar, can you feel the chill? Where does the river, when will the wind?
How far are the mountains? Where do they end? Why would the church?
Did the service begin? Tell me who died, and tell me who cried.
Help me hide in the skin of a deer, my zippered-up bag in the mouth of a stag so swiftly I go through rows of does,
it flows, it flows, it flows, it flows all over the hill where the green grass grows.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: SS32]
    #13851020 -

You also might want to watch the lecture called "The Primacy of Consciousness".  I can't remember the guy's name, but he speaks in some detail about where he believes the root of consciousness to sit.  I've been reading some of your posts and it seems like you think in much the same manner as I do.  I've never so much as glanced at this section of the site but I can see myself spending a lot of time here.


--------------------
Did he dream about dragons? Did he dream about deer? Did he whisper  he names of friends who were near?
What songs did they play, and how far away? Why did he whisper, why did she scream?
What does the sound of a screen door mean?
Who talks on the hill? Who goes to the cellar, can you feel the chill? Where does the river, when will the wind?
How far are the mountains? Where do they end? Why would the church?
Did the service begin? Tell me who died, and tell me who cried.
Help me hide in the skin of a deer, my zippered-up bag in the mouth of a stag so swiftly I go through rows of does,
it flows, it flows, it flows, it flows all over the hill where the green grass grows.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: SS32]
    #13853138 -

SS32 said:
...but quantum theory points strongly to the fact that how if observe something, it has a great impact on what is observed.

This is due to how the methods of observation interfere with quantum phenomenon, the observation in-and-of-itself does not effect such phenomenon AFAIK.


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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Poid]
    #13853458 -

If you run an experiment looking for a wave, you get a wave.  If you run it looking for a particle, you get a particle.


--------------------
Did he dream about dragons? Did he dream about deer? Did he whisper  he names of friends who were near?
What songs did they play, and how far away? Why did he whisper, why did she scream?
What does the sound of a screen door mean?
Who talks on the hill? Who goes to the cellar, can you feel the chill? Where does the river, when will the wind?
How far are the mountains? Where do they end? Why would the church?
Did the service begin? Tell me who died, and tell me who cried.
Help me hide in the skin of a deer, my zippered-up bag in the mouth of a stag so swiftly I go through rows of does,
it flows, it flows, it flows, it flows all over the hill where the green grass grows.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Brainstem]
    #13853477 -

Gwyneth Paltrow  can solve my problem. :doggystyle:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Icelander]
    #13853603 -

Unlucky, she prefers english meat.:wink:

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Brainstem]
    #13853761 -

There's always someone else.:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Icelander]
    #13853772 -

Icelander said:
There's always someone else.:satansmoking:


" I'm a backdoor man ! " The doors :laugh:

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: SS32]
    #13853783 -

SS32 said:
If you run an experiment looking for a wave, you get a wave.  If you run it looking for a particle, you get a particle.



What happens if they run simultaneous experiments ?

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Poid] * 1
    #13853882 -

Poid said:
SS32 said:
...but quantum theory points strongly to the fact that how if observe something, it has a great impact on what is observed.

This is due to how the methods of observation interfere with quantum phenomenon, the observation in-and-of-itself does not effect such phenomenon AFAIK.


Im not sure how you would distinguish between a method of observation and an observation in-and-of-itself.  Observation does effect phenomenon - it collapses the wave function.  The wave function evolves in a predictable, deterministic fashion until it is observed (by any method).

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Brainstem]
    #13853898 -

Brainstem said:
SS32 said:
If you run an experiment looking for a wave, you get a wave.  If you run it looking for a particle, you get a particle.



What happens if they run simultaneous experiments ?


A key point to particle-wave duality is that you need both a wave description and a particle description to explain a single experiment.

I do not believe what SS32 says is quite right.  What you are looking for has nothing to do with it.  To describe the results of the experiment you need to use a particle and a wave description.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13853955 -

DieCommie said:
Poid said:
SS32 said:
...but quantum theory points strongly to the fact that how if observe something, it has a great impact on what is observed.

This is due to how the methods of observation interfere with quantum phenomenon, the observation in-and-of-itself does not effect such phenomenon AFAIK.


Im not sure how you would distinguish between a method of observation and an observation in-and-of-itself.

I'll give an example: the use an electron microscope to view an electron would be a method of observation, and a person's perception of the electron would be an observation.


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Poid]
    #13853973 -

Why make such a distinction?

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13853975 -

:strokebeard: Input ! Input !







--------------------
The arrogant cat stalks the humble mouse, the self important dog chases away the cat and is in turn unable to stand it's ground against the Proud lion. Then the lion is almost trampled underfoot of the enlightened elephant, who surprisingly and paradoxically yields to the humble mouse.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13854002 -

DieCommie said:
Why make such a distinction?



Is it because there is a huge difference in saying that the tool with which we observe a subject is responsible for the result and saying the conscious observation of the observer is influencing the result ?

I have read in the past that scientists had noticed an influence of the experimenter on the outcome of experiments, is this related ?

Do you know if this duality has any relationship with consciousness ?

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13854003 -

DieCommie said:
Why make such a distinction?

Because I'm not sure whether it's the method of observation that collapses the wave function, the observation itself, or both. :shrug:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Poid] * 2
    #13854055 -

In the language I am used to, an observer need not be conscious.  You can have a conscious observation or an observation with no consciousness behind it.  Either is sufficient to collapse the wavefuction as far as I know.  Some people, mystics and even some scientists, claim that you need conscious observation to collapse the wave function.  I do not believe this is the case.  Take the double slit experiment.  You see a lack of interference pattern when you consciously observe the electron.  You also see a lack of interference if you record which slit it goes through and never look at the footage.  That result tells me that the observer need not be conscious.

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: Poid]
    #13854068 -

Poid said : Because I'm not sure whether it's the method of observation that collapses the wave function, the observation itself, or both.

Consciousness acts as a catalyst, reacting with space-time and allowing the possible probable potential to be realized and defined as experience, memory represents a possible accumulation of this potential.

What in the name of cursed Orpheus would we need an accumulation of space-time potential for, or to put it another way, what could you do with bottled space-time ?

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Re: Mathematical proof of existence ??? [Re: DieCommie]
    #13854078 -

Thanks for clearing that up for me. :mushroom2:


--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. --  Bob Dylan
fireworks_god said:
It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

General Interest > Philosophy, Sociology & Psychology
Threaded Mode Threaded  Previous topic Previous  View all topics Index  Next topic Next 

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