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OfflinePhanTomCat
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MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?)
    #3771880 - 02/12/05 08:50 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Music being a big hobby of mine is making me think more and more about it - and it's emotional evoking connection - and now it's TRUE origins....  So, I think about it often, and for whatever reason this line of thought hit me out of the "blue"....  It is a Theory, and don't know if it original or not....  It is however original to me....

The Origin of MUSIC = NATURE....

Very specifically, I am going to use "Song Birds" as the example, but I am not excluding all of the other animals (even bugs) that seem to be a symphonic background of noise thru the expression of wildlife within the confines of this Earth.... 

Song Birds....  Pretty much, evidence resides in the name itself....  Think of the song of the Morning Dove....  The song itself that it "sings" even seems to be in Pitch to what man calls "Musical Theory"....  I have not actually tested this or looked into it, but I can hear the Morning Dove's song in my head as it has been pretty much burned into memory....  It seems to be in Pitch....!?  Or even the Rooster's morning call....  It even seems to be in a relative key....?  Ironically, both of these examples, they sing their song, and then the tone descends upon reaching the last note....  It would be VERY interesting to see if all birds that "Sing Songs" have this similar commonality, and would also be interesting to see if they sing in the same Pitch and Key, or even the musical mode of music they sing in....  Is it Minor or Major....?  Are the songs in a specific relative time....  And what are the "commonalties" between different species of birds...?

There are a lot of other animals AND insects besides birds within nature that *seem* to have "musical abilities"....  Crickets, frogs, whales, dolphins, and I am sure the list could go on and on....    Some animals create tonal music, and others create clicking, or percussive sounds/music....  BOTH being the fundamental roots of what we call music today.... 

Even CATS seem to have "musical ability"....  Remember the cat food commercial...:  "Meow meow meow meow..."  :lol:  (kidding of course...)  :wink:

It would seem to prove that musical abilities of mankind originated from "Expression thru Impression" thru the "natural" or instinctual abilities of "Nature" itself....  Man just seemed to have created the "rules" that define the basic ideas of the creative expressions of nature itself, and we arrogantly called it "our own"....

It would also seem thru this discussion that music would be some form of "Ultimate Communication"....    Eeehhhh....?  With the ability of music to somehow evoking "Emotion" within the human mind....  It seems to be very perplexing indeed....

So, did nature serve to be the ORIGIN of music to provide a means of which to express emotion thru sound, and freely give that gift to man....?


Discuss...?


>^;;^<


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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OfflineJCoke
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3771972 - 02/12/05 09:14 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

hmm, this is interesting...

i think we did get the idea of making music from nature.

i love listening to nature, sometimes i think it makes better music than a man ever could, i love to lay in a field, listening, to birds, to insects, to the wind, etc etc...

or in a park, listening to peopls passing conversations, chlildren laughing, playing, babies crying, dogs barking,,, can't help but think to myself, what a wonderful world (<---that's a very good song by the way :smile: )

i also like the sounds of lawnmowers, not right up against my ear, but from a distance, echoing down the street, passing through the house's, and into my ear from my window, or my front/back porch...i also like the same thing about trains.

oh geeze, look at me i'm rambling again, lost in some strange nostalgia...thank you PhanTomCat,  i love it! :grin: :thumbup:


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hello, your name is life on earth
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"I traveled a long way seeking God, but when I finally gave up and turned back, there He was, within me! O Lalli! Now why do you wander like a beggar? Make some effort, and He will grant you a vision of Himself in the form of bliss in your heart." -the saint of the Kashmir Shaivism tradition: Lalli.


Edited by JCoke (02/12/05 09:26 PM)


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OfflinePedM
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3772035 - 02/12/05 09:27 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Do you suppose that song birds, whales, and the rest of them, regard the sounds they are making as having a musical quality in the way that we relate to the term? If they do not, then indeed music is a name we created for those patterned tonal variances, and any appreciation for them, whether from our own mouths and instruments or from those of other species, was something that originated in and was invented by the human mind.


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Offlinedesuka
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: Ped]
    #3772166 - 02/12/05 10:11 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

What makes "us", humans, so powerful; except, maybe a fish or a donkey
that can't write, or a fervent and wanton wish to kill, is our supposedly ability to think. We, as humans or a religious hustle, believe a view. What then happens, is a very interesting social con.


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OfflinePsyhigh
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3772255 - 02/12/05 11:40 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Physically, sound and music are indistinguishable, the words 'sound' and 'music' are simply human constructs which we have attached to our experience of hearing, that is, our perception of compressed air/matter vibrating our ear drum. What we would label as 'music' is perhaps sound that has been created with the intention of being expressed or heard of as 'music', thus something only a human would be able to create. If you were to bang a drum only once and claim it was music, I wouldn't challenge your affirmation, you have told me that it is music. As we can see, the complexity of the creation of music is variable - a single bang of the drum is logically of greater simplicity than the more intricately constructed pieces by, for a quick example, Mozart, whose 'arrangement' of sound was often determined and directed by set mathematical principles. By using the mathematical laws of the universe - also ubiquitous throughout 'nature' - to construct music, are we thus actualizing the perfection of sound? Or is this a crippling suppression of the freedom of expression that is fundamentally what 'music' is all about. I find the concept of rhythm of particular attraction, because it is something that encompasses our entire existence, from the regular beating of our heart, to the uninterrupted vibration of the atom. Certainly, the perception of 'music' is in my opinion, entirely subjective. Yes, to me, the birds 'song' is music to my ears! Only, of a different kind of music to the rhythmless, ambient drift of Vidna Obmana, the culminating intensity of GY!BE, or the mathematical intricacy of Mozart. Or the music of the rain drops.

I dunno, I've touched on a few things but really I should go to bed. Thanks for the topic, I look forward to seeing some discussion on the subject. I really came to the S&P forum to discuss 'binaural' or 'hemi-sync' technologies but I got dragged into this post - hopefully tomorrow I'll put up my separate post but it might well be worth a mention in this topic also :smile:.

Also, probably the best input I have on the subject - please try and watch the film, 'The Story Of The Weeping Camel'. It is the most fascinating and moving display of the power that 'music' has, as a nomadic Mongolian family perform a musical ritual to reunite a mother camel with her disowned colt. After weeks of rejection and denial, the mother camel, through the power of the music, weeps; literally weeps tears and tears, before finally accepting the camel colt as her own. This is not the 'focus' of the film, it is more, a pleasant documentary about the Mongolian family. Worth a watch for the observation of their culture and for the enlightening and inspiring demonstration of the power of music.


Edited by PropertyIsTheft (02/12/05 11:46 PM)


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3772315 - 02/13/05 12:09 AM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Interesting point, indeed. Although we've taken nature's sounds and "improved" upon it, it still remains basically the same, no matter what the genre...


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: Ped]
    #3774534 - 02/13/05 04:51 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Ped said:
Do you suppose that song birds, whales, and the rest of them, regard the sounds they are making as having a musical quality in the way that we relate to the term?  If they do not, then indeed music is a name we created for those patterned tonal variances, and any appreciation for them, whether from our own mouths and instruments or from those of other species, was something that originated in and was invented by the human mind.




Well, I don't know how to mentally relate to how an animal would interpret music, but there is something consistant between animal and mankind in "swooning" a mating partner.... 

Perhaps in the bird kingdom, it is the male bird that has the best "vocal style" in evoking an emotion in the opposite sex, as to have a female bird hear the song and say, "I got to get me some of that...!"    :tongue:  It seems pretty strange to think that they do all of that singing just because they are "happy"....  Or are they....?

It seems to be pretty evident within the human kingdom of how swooning seems to be pretty effective....    :shrug:

::::I knew I shoulda~ been a singer::::

Pehaps understanding how nature's sounds work thru impression gave mankind (over time) the ability and capacity to create something original in musical composition - after getting tired of hearing the same-o-same-o- "songs" over how many odd years...?  I dunno~, it is all guesses based off of observation....    It could be all wrong....

:sun:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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Offlinecb9fl
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: PhanTomCat]
    #3774588 - 02/13/05 05:09 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Sound definition: Vibrations transmitted through an elastic solid or a liquid or gas, with frequencies in the approximate range of 20 to 20,000 hertz, capable of being detected by human organs of hearing.

Other than having a specific range that bears striking similarities to string theory. If the most basic constructs of the entire universe are vibrating strings then "music" is fundamental to the world. No one created it, simply rediscovered it.


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It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide

"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."


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OfflinePhanTomCat
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Re: MUSIC - Didn't Originate From Mankind At All.... (Proof you ask...?) [Re: cb9fl]
    #3774620 - 02/13/05 05:16 PM (11 years, 9 months ago)

Aaaahhhh, I would say, exactly my point....    :grin:


--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....  :naughty:

"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."

>^;;^<


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