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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Under God, under attack (Again)
    #1348521 - 03/03/03 07:00 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Calif. District to Take Pledge Fight to Top Court
Mon Mar 3, 6:12 PM ET Taken from: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&cid=578&ncid=578&e=11&u=/nm/20030303/ts_nm/life_pledge_dc

By Michael Kahn

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - The California school district at the center of a legal battle over the wording of the Pledge of Allegiance said on Monday it will seek a stay of an appeals court decision striking the words "Under God" from the pledge until the issue can be decided by the Supreme Court.

The 9th Circuit Court of Appeals last Friday affirmed an earlier ruling that the Pledge of Allegiance was unconstitutional, setting the stage for a Supreme Court showdown over whether the words "Under God" breach the wall separating church and state.

Under the 9th circuit ruling, starting March 10 it will be illegal for schoolchildren in nine Western states to recite the pledge because of the phrase.

California's Elk Grove Unified School District, where the legal battle over the pledge began, will ask for a stay of the decision while it fights the case in the U.S. Supreme Court, Superintendent Dave Gordon said on Monday.

He added if the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals refuses to grant the stay, the district will comply with the ruling and not have children recite the pledge. Instead, the district will substitute patriotic songs, poems and other exercises.

"We are asking the 9th circuit to continue the stay ... pending our request for the Supreme Court to hear the case," Gordon said, adding attorneys would ask for a decision by Thursday.

The Justice Department had joined the Bush administration, the U.S. Congress, State of California and others in asking the 9th circuit to reconsider its June 26, 2002 ruling.

A three-member panel had ruled 2-1 in a lawsuit brought by a California atheist who sued on behalf of his daughter that the phrase violated the separation of church and state because it appeared to endorse religion.

Michael Newdow, an atheist, conceded that his eight-year-old daughter was not required to recite the pledge at her elementary school in Elk Grove, California, but said she was nevertheless hurt by having to "watch and listen."

That decision sparked a wide anger. The liberal court was accused of taking a hammer to one of the pillars of U.S. civic society and bowing to political correctness run amok. President Bush called the decision "ridiculous," while the U.S. Senate voted 99-0 for a resolution expressing support for the pledge.

After the court on Friday stood by its June ruling, U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft said the Justice Department would "spare no effort" to defend the pledge -- presumably by an appeal to the nation's highest court.

My comments: I find myself stuck in an awkward position here. I completely agree with the idea that no one should be forced to recite the pledge, but making it ILLEGAL to recite sounds a bit odd. I would think that this goes against the first amendment? The pledge should not be mandatory. But being made a criminal for reciting something that you as an individual have the right to say sounds a bit off. Thoughts and ideas anyone?


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1348666 - 03/03/03 08:42 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Here I'm torn between constitutionality and pragmatism. On one hand, I think that the phrase, "Under God" does violate the Establishment Clause, but on the other hand I keep saying to myself, "Who gives a fuck?"


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1348683 - 03/03/03 08:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I've done a total 180 on this issue from where I used to stand. There's a reason the founders of this country put the establishment clause in the first amendment. In the days before the supreme court "took God out of schools" eachers and school officials would abuse their power over the students to try to force thier brand of religion on them. Teachers tell the class "everon who's not a catholic raise your hand" or "everyone who's not a jehova's witness raise your hand" to embarass the kids that didn't subscrbe to that sect. Teachers would give lessons on religion and lead prayers that were against the religion of some of the students. Some parents were outraged that the teachers were trying to brainwash their kids and complained about it. There were hundreds of incidents of violence where parents came to blows with teachers over their kid being taught "that jehovas witness rubbish" or "that fundamentalist rubbish" if the parent was a jehovas witness or catholic. Finally, one hero, Madaline Murray O'Hare challenged the system in court because her son was abused in such a manner by one of his teachers. She won at the supreme court, a victory for all americans who wish to practice their religion without persecution or public ridicule. She was murdered with her son and buried in a shallow grave because someone didn't like what she had done. I oppose the phrase "under God" being used in the pledge of allegiance. Mixing church and state leads to oppression and trouble.


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineSkikid16
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1348745 - 03/03/03 09:40 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Nice post.  I enjoyed reading that.   


Your title may be truer than you know..... :wink:


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Re-Defeat Bush in '04


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1349036 - 03/04/03 01:36 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Finally, one hero, Madaline Murray O'Hare 



oh lord, please.  You have changed.  :smirk:


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (03/04/03 02:36 PM)


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Offlineflow
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1349251 - 03/04/03 09:43 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

i'm a bit torn between the two sides of this issue, but i think it's important to remember that the words "under God" were ADDED to the pledge i think it was in the 60's, not sure though. But if it was added, why? and why shouldn't it be removed? but it's retarded to make it illegal to say.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: flow]
    #1349625 - 03/04/03 11:46 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

i'm a bit torn between the two sides of this issue, but i think it's important to remember that the words "under God" were ADDED to the pledge i think it was in the 60's, not sure though. But if it was added, why? and why shouldn't it be removed? but it's retarded to make it illegal to say.



I believe it was actually added in the 50's, during the height of the Cold War, in an attempt to separate ourselves from the godless communists.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineAngry Mycologist
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1349985 - 03/04/03 01:51 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I believe it was actually added in the 50's, during the height of the Cold War, in an attempt to separate ourselves from the godless communists.



Sadly. I woudn't be suprised if the church had a lot to do with it.


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The proper penalty of ignorance, which is of course that those who don't know should learn from those who do... - Plato


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Angry Mycologist]
    #1350244 - 03/04/03 03:38 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

I believe it was actually added in the 50's, during the height of the Cold War, in an attempt to separate ourselves from the godless communists.



Sadly. I woudn't be suprised if the church had a lot to do with it.



Which church are you talking about? There isn't just one, ya know. Are you talking about the Catholic Church? Cuz they didn't have a big enough foothold in America back then to influence politics. And the Jerry Faldwell types weren't really influencial back then either.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: silversoul7]
    #1350322 - 03/04/03 04:06 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Big Religion. You know... like Big Tobacco only with crosses instead of cigarettes.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350333 - 03/04/03 04:10 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Do you have a link to an accurate account of what Madaline Murray O'Hare did, and what happened to her son? And who murdered her, and why?

All I can find is bible thumpers bitching about the things she did for out country.


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1350396 - 03/04/03 04:46 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I didn't get what I wrote from a link. I'm not surprise that most of what ou found was from the christian coalition or somthing, they're sore losers and have long memories. I read about her and talked with people that lived through what happened at the time. She was the plaintiff in the landmark supreme court case that rid public schools of forced religion, aka "took prayer/took God out of schools." She was murdered and buried in a shallow grave. Although the crime has been unsolved for deades it's widely believed that she died for her actions and beliefs, getting forced religion out of schools. So she died for her beliefs. She was both a patriot and a martyr.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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Offlinefalcon
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1350410 - 03/04/03 04:52 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Try searching for atheist and O'hare.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350414 - 03/04/03 04:54 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

They always seem to be trying hard not to gloat about her murder, and insinuate that it is proof of her evil ways somehow.

What can youtell me about the persecution her son experienced in school that prompted her actions?


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1350434 - 03/04/03 05:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Here's a website belonging to her only surviving son who is aparently now a Christian evangelist.

http://wjmurray.com/madalyn/default.htm


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #1350435 - 03/04/03 05:11 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

O'Hare was an athiest and raised her son to be as well. Her son was ridiculed and humiliated by his teachers for refusing to pray during class. She complained strongly to the teachers and principals and they told her that she was a bad parent and it was their responsibility to give her kid religious instruction since she wouldn't. She tried to handle things without resorting to the legal system but the school refused. (If it was me I'd have just broke the teachers nose). As a last resort she took them to court and won.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350438 - 03/04/03 05:13 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

You wouldn't happen to remember the city and/or state where that happened would you?


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Invisiblesir tripsalot
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1350966 - 03/04/03 09:59 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

I agree, god doesn't belong in school. Although I sing our national anthem with pride which includes"god keep our land" but I'm not too concerend about that. That has been a part of it for a long time though.


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"Little racoons and old possums 'n' stuff all live up in here. They've got to have a little place to sit." Bob Ross.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1351138 - 03/04/03 11:39 PM (14 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So she died for her beliefs. She was both a patriot and a martyr.



Martyr my ass. She died because someone wanted money.
The following is from her sons web site....

"Regardless of how evil and lawless my mother was she did not deserve to die in the manner she did. Yes, I understand that the circumstances were of her own making. She hired convicted murderers to work for her. She put one of those murders in charge of her office and he stole more than $54,000 from her. That same murderer is now suspected of killing her and Jon and Robin. He is also suspected of murdering and decapitating one of the men he recruited to kidnap my family."

http://wjmurray.com/madalyn/madayln.htm


And this.....
"West of Austin, Texas, investigators have found what they believe to be the remains of the archbishop of atheism, Madalyn Murray O'Hair. God rest her soul.

Mrs. O'Hair and two family members were abducted and murdered in 1995 in the course of a robbery, apparently by a former employee of her American Atheists Inc."

http://wjmurray.com/madalyn/madayln_revolution.htm


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Anonymous

Re: Under God, under attack (Again) [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #1351332 - 03/05/03 03:38 AM (14 years, 7 months ago)

So it seems another fantasy bites the dust.


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