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OfflineEllis Dee
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The Pledge of Allegiance
    #848032 - 08/27/02 10:20 PM (19 years, 27 days ago)

It's been over a month now since the 9th circuit court ruled the pledge of allegiance unconstitutional because of the phrase 'one nation under God'. School is now beginning for most students and the court has taken no action. Remember, this is the same liberal ourt that ruled that 'virtual child pornography' on he internet was constitutional. The public's fury over the decision has died down and most people have forgotton about it. This seems to be what the court wants. They don't want negative publicity. They'de rather wait and rule against the pledge.

I hope they rule the pledge unconstitutional. Anyone else hope so too?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848223 - 08/28/02 01:54 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

You haven't kept up with this stuff, have you? The lead judge for the 9th Circuit, the one who wrote the opinion, also issued a stay against it, which means that it will have no effect until after an appeal.

As far as the virtual child porn case, the ruling covered several major problems with the law. Like how do you decide if the person being drawn is underage? Is it because so-and-so says they are? Or the fact that nobody is actually being harmed. Child porn is illegal because it requires doing illegal things with children. Drawing pictures has been considered a form of speech since long before the US existed. Since freedom of speech is explicitly protected in the first amendment, there needs to be a pretty strong reason (much better than "it's offensive") to ban a type of speech.


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848425 - 08/28/02 06:25 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

Why all the bruhaha over the pledge of allegience to the flag, when it should be a pledge of allegience to the constitution? I think it's a case of the magicians trick of sleight of hand and redirection of attention from the more fundamental issues (involving fealty to constitutional principles) which threaten the republic. The flag is a piece of cloth, the constitution is the charter of the U.S. government and a contract between it and the states - consistently ignored by politicians of both major parties.


Edited by Evolving (08/28/02 06:26 AM)


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OfflineEightball
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #848428 - 08/28/02 06:35 AM (19 years, 27 days ago)

makes sense. no point in swearing to a flag, a banner, an object that simply represents some baffoons calling the shots. swearing to a list of ideas, values that we consider sacred to the existence of this country seems the more logical choice. but in the end its just a marketing game to get lemmings to trust their leaders and stand behind the COUNTRY instead of individual's morals which seem to keep themselves in check better than geee dubya.


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleFrog31337
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #848450 - 08/28/02 06:52 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

True the flag is cloth, but swearing to it because it is a SYMBOL of our country. It symbolizes who we are, where we came from and what our collective ideals are. Personally I would like it to stay as is. I like the pledge as is because a majority of US citizens gain comfort by believing in some sort of 'god.' The phrase "under God" was added by congress in 1954 by the prompting of the Knights of Columbus. I quit saying the words 'under God' since I was in 4th grade, and that was 17 years ago. Just because I don't say 'under God' doesn't mean everyone shouldn't.


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Frog31337]
    #848464 - 08/28/02 07:04 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Symbolism over substance. An interesting concept.


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OfflineEightball
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Frog31337]
    #848468 - 08/28/02 07:07 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

i think its rather arrogant and misleading for us to believe we somehow have god's support whatsoever. how bout "one nation in defiance to god"?


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleSoFarNorth
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848553 - 08/28/02 08:17 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

"I hope they rule the pledge unconstitutional. Anyone else hope so too?"

Not particularly. The pledge thing is a non-issue that is being used to suck up news media attention away from issues that have a real impact on the country. It's nothing but a smoke screen.


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"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


Edited by SoFarNorth (08/28/02 08:42 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #848604 - 08/28/02 08:37 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

The pledge thing is a non-issue that is being used to suck up news media attention away from issues that have a real impact on the country. It's nothing but a smoke screen.

My sentiments exactly.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #848622 - 08/28/02 08:45 AM (19 years, 26 days ago)

I agree....i will admit i got sucked in at the beginning.

I like the magic trick analogy...while we look left (the under God issue) they grab right (individual freedoms)...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblewingnutx

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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #849354 - 08/28/02 03:11 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

You hit the nail on the head. I don't take the pledge very seriously. That's what my oath to 'support and defend the Constitution' is for. The POA was originally published ina children's magazine, and didn't say anything about god, even though it's author was a Baptist minister as well as socialist activist.

Still, it's a dumb court decision.


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #849373 - 08/28/02 03:28 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

My thoughts exactly...

but while we're on the subject: Throw the whole fucking thing out.

I think Donahue summed it up well...

"Our constitution obliges no one to worship, pledge allegiance, or believe in anything, not the flag, not even the United States itself."


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: toxick]
    #849408 - 08/28/02 03:52 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

The pledge was origionaly written without the words "under god".. They should just simply change it back...

The pledge of alegance is verry important to this country with all the terrorism and what not... Kids should be made to look at the flag every day and swear to protect its honor in one way or another..


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #849419 - 08/28/02 03:59 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

Fuck that.

Why should we have to pledge loyalty to it?
Aren't we allowed to burn it?




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibletoxick
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #849747 - 08/28/02 07:12 PM (19 years, 26 days ago)

It's a little creepy to me to make children pledge allegiance to anything...

SAY THE CHANT, YOU LITTLE FUCKING COMMUNIST.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
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OfflineShroomSkin
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: toxick]
    #850685 - 08/29/02 09:26 AM (19 years, 25 days ago)

I was in my senior year when the 9-11 attacks happened, and everyday after we said the pledge of allegiance. I said it because I wanted to and I've always been kinda patriotic. I don't think people should be forced to say it however. I don't know if I believe in a God or not, but personally it doesn't bother me in the least. If you find the word "God" offensive, then you're just a really liberal pussy. I know atheists who aren't the least bit offended at it, because it doesn't reflect on your personal beliefs.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #850720 - 08/29/02 09:49 AM (19 years, 25 days ago)

It's not a smoke screen intentionally put there to hide real issues. That's paranoid conspiracy nonsense. It is a stupid issue that's not really important. Should there be allusions to religion in it? No, of course not, but it doesn't really matter.

There's a rule in the Canadian house of commons that the MP's can't have any decorations on their desks. A few years ago, one of the Reform MP's was asked to remove a small Canadian flag from his desk and the Reform party went berserk. It's the same kind of issue, completely pointless to debate about because it really doesn't make any difference.

And Rail Gun, you say you're all for free speech? How come the "virtual child pornography" doesn't count? This would include drawings of child porn, or stories about sex with children? Or do the free speech guarantees only count when it's not something that you really, really disagree with?


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #851306 - 08/29/02 02:44 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

I always thought it was a metaphor.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Eightball]
    #851310 - 08/29/02 02:48 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

i think its rather arrogant and misleading for us to believe we somehow have god's support whatsoever.

Yeah it is kind of ridiculous to just assume that god supports the US. Why are religious folk always telling god what he supports and what he's done?

I bet god is fucking sick of all their shit



--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #851319 - 08/29/02 02:56 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

The pledge of alegance is verry important to this country with all the terrorism and what not... Kids should be made to look at the flag every day and swear to protect its honor in one way or another..

During my years in the public school system I was made to sing the Canadian national anthem over 2000 times. That is sick. It just becomes meaningless after it's drilled into our soft juvenile minds repeatedly. And why? To somehow lessen the chance of me becoming a goddam communist traitor. It's even worse in the states. They shove patriotism up children's asses because of the cold war.

I still don't know if you were joking or not.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #851395 - 08/29/02 04:09 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

^^^^^^^ Commie


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GabbaDj

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: WhiskeyClone]
    #851598 - 08/29/02 06:11 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

no one should be forced to sing the Canadian National Anthem...it's bad enough we have to hear it at hockey games...


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


Edited by Innvertigo (08/29/02 06:13 PM)


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OfflineLarrythescaryrex
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #851970 - 08/29/02 08:53 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

I hope it isn't banned. I say brainwash the kiddies. who cares? Why not change it to say, "one nation under the god or gods of your choice"


--------------------
RIP Acidic_Sloth

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invoke the shadows and dust, cast a hex
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relocate from Ur to 8th density and become a cosmic bully
mulder and scully couldn't decipher his glyphs
invoke the shadows and dust, smoke infernal spliffs"
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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ToxicMan]
    #852105 - 08/29/02 09:46 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

>>>>>You haven't kept up with this stuff, have you? The lead judge for the 9th Circuit, the one who wrote the opinion, also issued a stay against it, which means that it will have no effect until after an appeal.>>>>>>

That is not new. The stay was issued on it the same day the ruling was made. The 9th circuit has taken no action on the issue since then.

I do not tihnk that drawn pictures should be banned. I think that pictures of real exploited children modified by technology should be illegal and not considered art. If you take a picture of a kid being raped and change the kids eye color in photoshop is it now virtual and protected by law since it was altered or morphed?


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #852110 - 08/29/02 09:48 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

Sounds almost like you read that paper from Jews For the Preservation of Firearms Ownership on the 'pledge to the bilol of rights'. You should all read it. I think I'll post it tomarow.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Eightball]
    #852114 - 08/29/02 09:53 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

>>>>>>>i think its rather arrogant and misleading for us to believe we somehow have god's support whatsoever. how bout "one nation in defiance to god"? >>>>>>

I think that statement would actually be a more appropriate description of this nations decadence and it's people that have gone a whoring.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #852115 - 08/29/02 09:53 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

No, that's not virtual.

I mean, sure, the law sounds pretty awful when you start making up hypothetical situations that certainly wouldn't count.

I'm not sure if pictures of kids that have been photoshopped to LOOK like they're having sex would fit into that law or not, but I don't think they should. Instead, that should count as some sort of slander.


--------------------
"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: wingnutx]
    #852128 - 08/29/02 09:57 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

>>>>>The POA was originally published ina children's magazine, and didn't say anything about god, even though it's author was a Baptist minister as well as socialist activist.
>>>>>

This is what bothers me the most about the oath. It's written by socialists without anything to do with God. And now Christian conservatives have stepped out on a limb to defend it as a symbol or Christian America. That is a stretch. America is not Christian and the pledge has no mention whatsoever of the LORD and is not Christian in any way. They are just so desperate to rewrite history to say that we really are a Christian nation that has lost it's way they are willing to embelish the truth and make up things about the past. It's sickening and detestable IMHO.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #852135 - 08/29/02 09:59 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

>>>>The pledge of alegance is verry important to this country with all the terrorism and what not... Kids should be made to look at the flag every day and swear to protect its honor in one way or another.. >>>>

In 1984 the gov. establishes permanent wars and grabs away personal freedom by brainwashing it's citizenry to mindless *patriotism* and blind obedience. I see that happening now with the war on terror.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Phluck]
    #852153 - 08/29/02 10:04 PM (19 years, 25 days ago)

In reply to:

No, that's not virtual.

I mean, sure, the law sounds pretty awful when you start making up hypothetical situations that certainly wouldn't count.

I'm not sure if pictures of kids that have been photoshopped to LOOK like they're having sex would fit into that law or not, but I don't think they should. Instead, that should count as some sort of slander.



You just compromised on the issue. It should be slander. I think if there's no real kids victimized then there's no crime. If the pictures are of real kids being hurt and the pic is morphed to change details it should not be considered art, just kiddy porn.

The way it stands now I think all that's necessary to make a defence it to black out the faces of the children in the pictures so they can't be identified. Then there's no way to prove it's real and no way to prove there's a victim. It is messed up. The courts need to deal with this pedophile loophole.


--------------------
"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #853299 - 08/30/02 02:08 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

LOL


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Innvertigo]
    #853303 - 08/30/02 02:09 PM (19 years, 24 days ago)

I hate it at sports events too. It would be so special to hear it only on July 1.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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Offlineuno
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #864536 - 09/05/02 12:08 AM (19 years, 19 days ago)

A great example of things that could happen if that law had not been challenged:

Every video store and home that owned copies of Traffic or American Beauty, or Lolita could be prosecuted for the portrayal of sex with a person not of age.

The law lacked clarity. When you are saying that all one would have to do is change the eye color of a victim, I believe this to be off-base. My understanding of the judgement on the law was that if there was NO victim, it was not against the law. IE making a "cyber-kid" that does not exist anywhere in the world is ok. The law in itself would make movies like the ones mentioned above illegal, computer generated artwork illegal(however detestable), texts about abuse, etc. It needs to be re-rewritten and it does NEED to be passed when it passes muster.


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- uno


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