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Invisibleafoaf
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Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case
    #2008105 - 10/14/03 12:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

story

Supreme Court accepts Pledge of Allegiance case
From Bill Mears
CNN
Tuesday, October 14, 2003 Posted: 12:54 PM EDT (1654 GMT)


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Supreme Court agreed Tuesday to hear a case involving whether schoolchildren can be allowed to recite the Pledge of Allegiance voluntarily, putting a family's custody dispute at the forefront of a constitutional legal battle.

At issue is whether the Pledge of Allegiance should be banned from public schools for its use of the words "under God." Constitutional scholars have debated for years whether the pledge serves as both a patriotic oath and a form of public prayer.

Court arguments in the case will be heard next year, with a ruling expected by June.

Michael Newdow, an atheist, sued the Sacramento County, California, school district where his daughter attended, saying that teacher-led recitation by students violates his 9-year-old child's religious liberty.

Legal precedent makes reciting the pledge a voluntary act, but Newdow argues it is unconstitutional for students to be forced to hear it, saying the teacher-led recitations carry the stamp of government approval.

"I believe in the Constitution," Newdow told CNN last year. "The Constitution says that government isn't supposed to be infusing religion into our society, and so I asked to have that upheld." (Full story)

In June 2002, the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals drew sharply divided public opinion when it banned the teacher-led pledge for nearly 10 million schoolchildren in the nine Western states under its jurisdiction.

In striking down the pledge, the judges ruled that "the coercive effect of the policy here is particularly pronounced in the school setting given the age and impressionability of schoolchildren." (Full story)

The ban was put on hold until the high court issues a final ruling. The First Amendment bans government "establishment of religion," but the Supreme Court twice previously has declared the pledge constitutional.

The federal government, local school officials and Newdow all asked the Supreme Court to hear the case, but only the separate appeal by the school district was accepted.

The Bush administration opposes the ban, and the court allowed the government to argue its position separately. U.S. Attorney General John Ashcroft pointed to religious references in the national anthem and the national motto, "In God We Trust," saying they are mostly ceremonial, and added, "Our religious heritage has been recognized and celebrated for hundreds of years."

Complicating matters is Newdow's legal standing to bring the case because of a custody dispute between him and the child's mother. The two never married. The mother, Sandra Banning, said she believes the pledge is a "patriotic expression" and said her daughter does not object to reciting it. (Full story)

The court also agreed to hear that aspect of the case.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not quite sure what to think of the case.

I grew up with the pledge, but feel strongly about the
complete seperation of church and state.

even if it is only a 'ceremoni[us]' reference in an otherwise
wholly patriotic hymn.


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Anonymous

Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: afoaf]
    #2008232 - 10/14/03 02:19 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

abolish the entire pledge of allegiance.

its useless.


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Offlinehongomon
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: afoaf]
    #2008280 - 10/14/03 02:43 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

This is a battle I wouldn't consider fighting. Hell, just teach your kids to say "under glob" or something, or just zip the lip for that phrase.

Even better is Immaculate's idea.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: afoaf]
    #2008447 - 10/14/03 04:00 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

It's not like the Pledge of Allegiance is good for anything. Just scrap it.


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: Phluck]
    #2008560 - 10/14/03 04:45 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

says you, canoodian!

:smirk:


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: Phluck]
    #2008573 - 10/14/03 04:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phluck said:
It's not like the Pledge of Allegiance is good for anything. Just scrap it.



I agree. It's stupid. I don't appreciate having kids forced to pledge allegiance to any country when they don't understand the implications of such a pledge.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: silversoul7]
    #2008620 - 10/14/03 05:01 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

I totally agree. Anything that could bolster support for america, or give american kids a sense of identify , should be removed from schools. I mean, fuck America, right?


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In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008623 - 10/14/03 05:03 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Have we all forgotten that America was made by White, Christian men? I realize now it's a sin to be white, let alone have any value system that doesn't condone and support every deviant possibility that exists, but, uh, this is OUR country. When they wrote "For our posterity", they meant us.


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008877 - 10/14/03 06:15 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"The United States is in no sense founded on the Christian Doctrine"

-George Washington




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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008889 - 10/14/03 06:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

lysergic said:
I totally agree. Anything that could bolster support for america, or give american kids a sense of identify , should be removed from schools. I mean, fuck America, right?



It's not that America is a bad place, but children shouldn't be forced to pledge allegiance to it without understanding what their country is about and what it's done. Patriotism should come from understanding, and should not be automatic. Please come back when you have a point.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008904 - 10/14/03 06:23 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

or give american kids a sense of identify




Why would you want to give someone a sense of identity?

Some people seem to want to eliminate freedom of thought so they don't have to worry about people exercising their freedom of speech.


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Offlinelysergic
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2008910 - 10/14/03 06:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

If parent's dont want their childrens allegiance to be to the country that they are a citizen of, they can feel free to move elsewhere.  As a citizen, I think you should have llegiance to that nation.  It's not claming allegiance to the current administraion, but it inculcates a love of country. something,obviously, that missed it's mark on a few people in here :smile:


--------------------
In response to an attack killing 15 American Servicemen
PsiloKitten said:
Just give em a little more time, the iraqis are making great progress. And this is unorganized. Wait till they get organized.


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Anonymous

Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: silversoul7]
    #2008914 - 10/14/03 06:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

agreed.

the problem isnt the pledge. if you love your country and want to pledge allegiance to the flag in front of whoever, do it.

but in schools, kids are generally forced to say it. there was a jehovah's witness in my fifth grade class who was forced to say it (our teacher didnt realize his religion) and he got really upset and his parents had to come to school and blah blah.

that, is bullshit. no one should HAVE to say it.

i say fuck the whole thing, myself.


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Anonymous

Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008923 - 10/14/03 06:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

you should NOT be forced to pronounce allegiance to ANYTHING, by ANYONE.

EVER.

i dont care if it IS the country youre a citizen of; youre a fucking citizen!


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008968 - 10/14/03 06:48 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

As a citizen, I think you should have llegiance to that nation. It's not claming allegiance to the current administraion, but it inculcates a love of country. something,obviously, that missed it's mark on a few people in here




I am a carbon life form that happens to be a member of the species Homo Sapiens. I feel like I owe allegiance only to other members of my species and other conscious life,not arbitrary,imaginary lines that turn people in fanatical morons.Yes,in that sense nationalism/patriotism has lost me.

Back to the topic at hand...I think both sides (left and right) are full of self righteous pricks. No one should be able to make you say anything. On the other hand,people should have the right to say whatever they want.

The whole thing should be opional. People can still say it. If you don't like it don't participate.

It shouldn't be done away with if people want to say it,but it in no way should be mandatory.


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People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


Edited by monoamine (10/14/03 06:50 PM)


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Offlinemonoamine
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2008998 - 10/14/03 06:59 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


Have we all forgotten that America was made by White, Christian men?





Umm......no. This country was built by a large variety of people.

The founder fathers balanced democracy with the rights of individuals pretty well. It keeps people from being controlled by the mob mentality (namely this white Protestant fundalmentalist crap).

I guess I imagined reading about Chinese building railroads,blacks being a large part of the agricultural economy of the south, Jews, immigrants,etc...


--------------------
People think that if you just say the word "hallucinations" it explains everything you want it to explain and eventually whatever it is you can't explain will just go away.It's just a word,it doesn't explain anything...
Douglas Adams


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: lysergic]
    #2009010 - 10/14/03 07:06 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Yeah, I don't give a shit what imaginary lines someone was born between or lives between either. I don't have any more allegience to America or the people who live here than I do to any other set of imaginary lines or the people who live between them.


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Edited by Baby_Hitler (10/14/03 07:32 PM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: ]
    #2009012 - 10/14/03 07:08 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

immaculate said:
you should NOT be forced to pronounce allegiance to ANYTHING, by ANYONE.

EVER.

i dont care if it IS the country youre a citizen of; youre a fucking citizen!



Ya, isn't this supposed to be the land of the free? Or did I miss something?


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisiblePsiloKitten
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: monoamine]
    #2009037 - 10/14/03 07:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

That post gave me a warm fuzzy feeling.

It appealed to the Commonsensocrat in me.

It makes me want to dance the forbidden dance of freedom.



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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Supreme Court to hear 'Pledge' Case [Re: PsiloKitten]
    #2009897 - 10/14/03 11:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

do it, I'll keep look out.


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