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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478815 - 04/21/03 01:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

That's why cases of symbolic speech such as this are difficult. The burning cross could be seen as a threat, but then again, it could just be seen as expressing one's own views. It's hard to tell.




That's why i'm against ALL hate crime legislation. When was the last time there was a crime that hatred wasn't involved? A crime is a crime no matter what color the person is.



In order to prosecute something as a hate crime, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt not only that the defendant committed a crime against a person of another race/religion/sexuality, but that their motive was prejudice towards that group. If you punch a black guy because he said something about your mom, it would be pretty damn hard for the prosecution to prove it was a hate crime.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478842 - 04/21/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In order to prosecute something as a hate crime, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt not only that the defendant committed a crime against a person of another race/religion/sexuality, but that their motive was prejudice towards that group.




Not true, it just has to be shown that some racial slur was involved (or so it seems and is perceived)

there have been numerous cases brought to the courts that have prosecuted somone of a hate crime because during the fight, robbery, rape or whatever, there was a racial slur uttered. why? Isn't it bad enough that there is a crime going on? are we not allowed to use the word "nigger" if we want (i don't use that word either)?



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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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Offlinegrib
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478852 - 04/21/03 01:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What if a black person moves into a neighborhood and someone burns a cross on their lawn? 




In the paragraph above the one you referenced I stated: 'If no person nor anothers property is being harmed then an individual should be able to burn a cross,'. By placing the cross in the front yard of the new residents, that in itself is a criminal act: vandalism. Needless to say that setting the cross on fire is and should be illegal.

If, on the other hand, you meant that the neighbours of the new residents set a cross on fire in their yard, I still must say that the individual has the right to burn the cross. If the person burning the cross takes it to the point of issuing a direct threat to the new neighbours then that is entirely a different matter. (I won't even touch on urban/sub-urban public safety issues with regards to burning anything in a front yard. Everything must be considered in context.) Our rights are being slowly taken away because of perceived intimidation, national security, etc. Cross burning today, books tomorrow.

***edit *** I was trying to reply for a long time but issues at work kept me from finishing. Many of my comments had already been stated.  :tongue:
 


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (04/21/03 01:37 PM)


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478870 - 04/21/03 01:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In order to prosecute something as a hate crime




Hate crime laws are horrible laws. They amount to nothing less than double jeopardy.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: grib]
    #1478881 - 04/21/03 01:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I actually think it puts a barrier between whites and minorities because it's almost impossible to accuse a minority of a hate crime...or the court is less likely to believe it.

Societal Affirmative Action.


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478892 - 04/21/03 01:54 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

I actually think it puts a barrier between whites and minorities because it's almost impossible to accuse a minority of a hate crime...or the court is less likely to believe it.



You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478900 - 04/21/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.




exactly. It's a crime to beat up someone and that is what should be the reason he/she gets arrested and prosecuted.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478942 - 04/21/03 02:13 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.




A white man charged with a hate crime vs. a black man charged with a hate crime... Does it matter the skin colour of the person charged?

Hate crime laws are wrong regardless of who they are used against.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479183 - 04/21/03 04:05 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

In responce to the "black man moving in across the street" question. If I wanted ot fly a confederate flag, I could. If he wanted to have a black panther rally on his property, he oculd. If he wanted to burn an effigy of a white person on his own lawn, he'd even be allowed to do that. But If I wanted to burn a cross on my own property, thats illegal?


Pz

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479185 - 04/21/03 04:06 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Now for the issue of 'go up to a cop and threaten him". That is an overt threat. If I do that, i'll be breaking the law.  If I make an effigy of that policeman and lynch it and burn it on my own property, thats not a threat.  Read the initial post, "private land".  :smile: thats what i'm looking for here, i'm arguing the actual supreme court case, not each person's individual feelings on the KKK

Pz

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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1479269 - 04/21/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

, i'm arguing the actual supreme court case, not each person's individual feelings on the KKK





did you mean to reply to me or are you just making a general comment? Because i agree with you.


--------------------

America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479276 - 04/21/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 4 months ago)

General comment. I think that what I'd like to discuss at least, and you guys can discuss whatever aspect of this you want of course, is that the supreme court is dictating what can and cannot be done on private property. It's interesting that they banned cross burning, but they allow people to display swastika's. Weird.

Pz

johnny R


--------------------
As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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