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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Supreme court and Cross Burning
    #1477186 - 04/20/03 08:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Greets,
The Supreme Court upheld a ruling that states can ban cross-burning on private property. This means that if I own 500 acres in Montana,and I want to exercize my right to free speech by having a KKK ralley, I can't do it. What do you all think of this?


Note: PLEASE do not think that I support the KKK, I am very much so not in support ofthe, but I am very much so in support of their right to have their meetings / ralleys / redneck gatherings as long as they don't hurt anyone else.


Pz

Johnny R


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OfflineEllis Dee
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477219 - 04/20/03 09:10 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Burning a cross isn't "speech". It's an act, an overt act of racism, generally. It does however have religious undertones. A cross burning I witnessed was preceded by the head guy yelling it represents the "light of christ". IMO is a group busted for this makes a religious defence they'll have a good case that may go back before the SCOTUS.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477291 - 04/20/03 09:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Cross-burning crosses the line of free speech when it is used to threaten or intimidate someone.


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1477297 - 04/20/03 09:45 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

silver - I know that... however, if I'm on my own private farm, is it, or should it still be, illegal?? I think not


pz

Johnny R


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477306 - 04/20/03 09:49 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Lemme re-ask my initial question so we can limit the number of posts that don't deal with it...

If a man decides to burn a cross with his KKK buddies on his own private property where noone else could see unless they were tresspassing on his land, should he have that right?


Pz

Johnny R


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1477346 - 04/20/03 10:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In that case, yes he should.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1478263 - 04/21/03 06:58 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

yeah he should have the right to bun the cross, no matter how gay it looks. I liken it to people's right to burn the flag. That is also meant to intimidate, to an extent.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #1478365 - 04/21/03 09:17 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Burning a cross isn't "speech".




If no person nor anothers property is being harmed then an individual should be able to burn a cross, politician in effigy, flag, etc. on private property. I do see this as an erosion of free speech. Cross burning is as much free speech as a PETA member holding a sign in front of Neiman Marcus that depicts slaughtered animals. They are both in bad taste and each is sure to offend someone.

Quote:

It's an act, an overt act of racism, generally.




When I was a child we had a little poem: 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. Words, actions... with the absence of violence there should be no crime. It is not the governments place to keep someone from being offended, in fact, one does not have the right to not be offended.

I am a Washington, D.C. native. I am also white. I have gone into restaurants in black areas of DC and they ignored me which was there way of refusing service. So what? I went somewhere else. That was overt racism but I don't care. If they don't want my money someone else will.

Maybe I have thicker skin than some?

There will always be mean, trashy people who want to display their ignorance and hate; let them. It shows everyone who and what they are. Respect can't be legislated."


--------------------
<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


Edited by grib (04/21/03 09:20 AM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: grib]
    #1478381 - 04/21/03 09:38 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

i agree with you...and i'm scared. :smirk:


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478397 - 04/21/03 10:00 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

i agree with you...and i'm scared.




that's the freedom minded part of you trying to get out. go with it.  :wink: 


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: grib]
    #1478404 - 04/21/03 10:06 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I guess people don't see that there is ALWAYS two sides to every issue when free speech is the issue. Ashcroft said something a few days ago that really pissed me off. He said something like: The media has the right to report what they want but should be penalized if they say something wrong. WTF??

so much for that freedom of the press. I'm no fan of the lefty media sources (CNN, BBC....Al Jazeer..) but they have the right to say anything they want.


--------------------

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Edited by Innvertigo (04/21/03 10:24 AM)


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478460 - 04/21/03 10:55 AM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

The media has the right to report what they want but should be penalized if they say something wrong.




penalized? hummmm....

ok reporters, listen up. if you mis-report anything, either purposely or by mistake... well, you will have an expense paid vacation to a lovely little sea-side village: Guantanamo.

Quote:

so much for that freedom of the press. I'm no fan of the lefty media sources (CNN, BBC....Al Jazeer..) but they have the right to say anything they want.




sure, even pinko Pravda


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Edited by grib (04/21/03 10:57 AM)


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: grib]
    #1478650 - 04/21/03 12:11 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

When I was a child we had a little poem: 'sticks and stones may break my bones but words will never hurt me'. Words, actions... with the absence of violence there should be no crime. It is not the governments place to keep someone from being offended, in fact, one does not have the right to not be offended.



It's not just about offending. What if a black person moves into a neighborhood and someone burns a cross on their lawn? In that case it's not just harassing that individual, but is actually used to intimidate and threaten them into leaving.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478684 - 04/21/03 12:19 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

It's not just about offending. What if a black person moves into a neighborhood and someone burns a cross on their lawn?




If they burnt the cross in the black man's yard then that would be different and would also count as vandalism. If it's on someone elses property then it should be protected under the 1st amendment as long as the fire doesn't violate any city ordinances.

Quote:

In that case it's not just harassing that individual, but is actually used to intimidate and threaten them into leaving.




can the same be said about the war protestors throwing rocks, bricks and harrasing others?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478726 - 04/21/03 12:30 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

It's not just about offending. What if a black person moves into a neighborhood and someone burns a cross on their lawn?




If they burnt the cross in the black man's yard then that would be different and would also count as vandalism. If it's on someone elses property then it should be protected under the 1st amendment as long as the fire doesn't violate any city ordinances.



Let's suppose a guy burned a cross on his own lawn, knowing that a black man had just moved in across the street. That could still be used to threaten and intimidate.

Quote:

Quote:

In that case it's not just harassing that individual, but is actually used to intimidate and threaten them into leaving.




can the same be said about the war protestors throwing rocks, bricks and harrasing others?



Indeed it can.


--------------------


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Edited by silversoul7 (04/21/03 12:30 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478754 - 04/21/03 12:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Let's suppose a guy burned a cross on his own lawn, knowing that a black man had just moved in across the street.




so what, it's his property and he can do what he/she wants. The first amendment gives idiots the right to be one. The same can be said about the war protestors that say that soldiers are purposly killing children, it's ignorant but they have that right.



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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478761 - 04/21/03 12:46 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Let's suppose a guy burned a cross on his own lawn, knowing that a black man had just moved in across the street.




so what, it's his property and he can do what he/she wants. The first amendment gives idiots the right to be one. The same can be said about the war protestors that say that soldiers are purposly killing children, it's ignorant but they have that right.



Free speech does not protect threats. Why don't you go up to a cop and threaten to kill him, then see if your right to free speech is protected.


--------------------


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Edited by silversoul7 (04/21/03 12:47 PM)


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478767 - 04/21/03 12:50 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Free speech does not protect threats.




where's the threat? (i'm not defending this hypothetical idiot) burning a cross does not equal a lynching.

Quote:

Why don't you go up to a cop and threaten to kill him, then see if your right to free speech is protected.




that's the difference, you actually make a threat.

Can it be assumed that those that burn the American flag should be locked up because it's an act of war on the United States ie: threatening?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478785 - 04/21/03 12:56 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

Free speech does not protect threats.




where's the threat? (i'm not defending this hypothetical idiot) burning a cross does not equal a lynching.



True, but it could be interpreted as a threat of lynching. It's basically giving the message, "Get out, before something bad happens to you."

Quote:

Quote:

Why don't you go up to a cop and threaten to kill him, then see if your right to free speech is protected.




that's the difference, you actually make a threat.



That's why cases of symbolic speech such as this are difficult. The burning cross could be seen as a threat, but then again, it could just be seen as expressing one's own views. It's hard to tell.

Quote:

Can it be assumed that those that burn the American flag should be locked up because it's an act of war on the United States ie: threatening?



It could be, and I'm not saying that either case is necessarily used as a threat. I'm pretty much on the fence on this one. There are good arguments on both sides.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478808 - 04/21/03 01:08 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

but it could be interpreted as a threat of lynching.




Devil's Advocate:

or it could just be a cross burning. it gets really dangerous when we put an assumption as the arresting factor.

Quote:

"Get out, before something bad happens to you."




or it might say "i'm a white supremacist and this is our symbol".........and i'm an idiot.

Quote:

That's why cases of symbolic speech such as this are difficult. The burning cross could be seen as a threat, but then again, it could just be seen as expressing one's own views. It's hard to tell.




That's why i'm against ALL hate crime legislation. When was the last time there was a crime that hatred wasn't involved? A crime is a crime no matter what color the person is.

Quote:

It could be, and I'm not saying that either case is necessarily used as a threat. I'm pretty much on the fence on this one. There are good arguments on both sides.




It makes me mad when i see people burning the flag but that usually dissolves when i consider their right to do so.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478815 - 04/21/03 01:14 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

That's why cases of symbolic speech such as this are difficult. The burning cross could be seen as a threat, but then again, it could just be seen as expressing one's own views. It's hard to tell.




That's why i'm against ALL hate crime legislation. When was the last time there was a crime that hatred wasn't involved? A crime is a crime no matter what color the person is.



In order to prosecute something as a hate crime, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt not only that the defendant committed a crime against a person of another race/religion/sexuality, but that their motive was prejudice towards that group. If you punch a black guy because he said something about your mom, it would be pretty damn hard for the prosecution to prove it was a hate crime.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478842 - 04/21/03 01:26 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In order to prosecute something as a hate crime, the prosecution has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt not only that the defendant committed a crime against a person of another race/religion/sexuality, but that their motive was prejudice towards that group.




Not true, it just has to be shown that some racial slur was involved (or so it seems and is perceived)

there have been numerous cases brought to the courts that have prosecuted somone of a hate crime because during the fight, robbery, rape or whatever, there was a racial slur uttered. why? Isn't it bad enough that there is a crime going on? are we not allowed to use the word "nigger" if we want (i don't use that word either)?



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Offlinegrib
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478852 - 04/21/03 01:35 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

What if a black person moves into a neighborhood and someone burns a cross on their lawn? 




In the paragraph above the one you referenced I stated: 'If no person nor anothers property is being harmed then an individual should be able to burn a cross,'. By placing the cross in the front yard of the new residents, that in itself is a criminal act: vandalism. Needless to say that setting the cross on fire is and should be illegal.

If, on the other hand, you meant that the neighbours of the new residents set a cross on fire in their yard, I still must say that the individual has the right to burn the cross. If the person burning the cross takes it to the point of issuing a direct threat to the new neighbours then that is entirely a different matter. (I won't even touch on urban/sub-urban public safety issues with regards to burning anything in a front yard. Everything must be considered in context.) Our rights are being slowly taken away because of perceived intimidation, national security, etc. Cross burning today, books tomorrow.

***edit *** I was trying to reply for a long time but issues at work kept me from finishing. Many of my comments had already been stated.  :tongue:
 


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Edited by grib (04/21/03 01:37 PM)


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478870 - 04/21/03 01:43 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

In order to prosecute something as a hate crime




Hate crime laws are horrible laws. They amount to nothing less than double jeopardy.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: grib]
    #1478881 - 04/21/03 01:47 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

I actually think it puts a barrier between whites and minorities because it's almost impossible to accuse a minority of a hate crime...or the court is less likely to believe it.

Societal Affirmative Action.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1478892 - 04/21/03 01:54 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

I actually think it puts a barrier between whites and minorities because it's almost impossible to accuse a minority of a hate crime...or the court is less likely to believe it.



You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478900 - 04/21/03 01:58 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.




exactly. It's a crime to beat up someone and that is what should be the reason he/she gets arrested and prosecuted.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: silversoul7]
    #1478942 - 04/21/03 02:13 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

You're right, if the victim is a straight white male. But I think if a black guy beat up an Arab or a gay guy, he could be convicted of a hate crime.




A white man charged with a hate crime vs. a black man charged with a hate crime... Does it matter the skin colour of the person charged?

Hate crime laws are wrong regardless of who they are used against.


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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479183 - 04/21/03 04:05 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

In responce to the "black man moving in across the street" question. If I wanted ot fly a confederate flag, I could. If he wanted to have a black panther rally on his property, he oculd. If he wanted to burn an effigy of a white person on his own lawn, he'd even be allowed to do that. But If I wanted to burn a cross on my own property, thats illegal?


Pz

johnny R


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OfflineJohnnyRespect
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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479185 - 04/21/03 04:06 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Now for the issue of 'go up to a cop and threaten him". That is an overt threat. If I do that, i'll be breaking the law.  If I make an effigy of that policeman and lynch it and burn it on my own property, thats not a threat.  Read the initial post, "private land".  :smile: thats what i'm looking for here, i'm arguing the actual supreme court case, not each person's individual feelings on the KKK

Pz

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Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: JohnnyRespect]
    #1479269 - 04/21/03 04:38 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

, i'm arguing the actual supreme court case, not each person's individual feelings on the KKK





did you mean to reply to me or are you just making a general comment? Because i agree with you.


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Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

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OfflineJohnnyRespect
Nomadic Wanderer
Registered: 04/17/03
Posts: 676
Loc: East Coast
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
Re: Supreme court and Cross Burning [Re: Innvertigo]
    #1479276 - 04/21/03 04:41 PM (17 years, 5 months ago)

General comment. I think that what I'd like to discuss at least, and you guys can discuss whatever aspect of this you want of course, is that the supreme court is dictating what can and cannot be done on private property. It's interesting that they banned cross burning, but they allow people to display swastika's. Weird.

Pz

johnny R


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As I felt the soft cool mud squish between my toes, I thought, Man, these are not very good shoes!


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