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OfflineEllis Dee
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The Pledge of Allegiance
    #848032 - 08/27/02 10:20 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It's been over a month now since the 9th circuit court ruled the pledge of allegiance unconstitutional because of the phrase 'one nation under God'. School is now beginning for most students and the court has taken no action. Remember, this is the same liberal ourt that ruled that 'virtual child pornography' on he internet was constitutional. The public's fury over the decision has died down and most people have forgotton about it. This seems to be what the court wants. They don't want negative publicity. They'de rather wait and rule against the pledge.

I hope they rule the pledge unconstitutional. Anyone else hope so too?


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"If the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do."-King Solomon

And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,


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OfflineToxicManM
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848223 - 08/28/02 01:54 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You haven't kept up with this stuff, have you? The lead judge for the 9th Circuit, the one who wrote the opinion, also issued a stay against it, which means that it will have no effect until after an appeal.

As far as the virtual child porn case, the ruling covered several major problems with the law. Like how do you decide if the person being drawn is underage? Is it because so-and-so says they are? Or the fact that nobody is actually being harmed. Child porn is illegal because it requires doing illegal things with children. Drawing pictures has been considered a form of speech since long before the US existed. Since freedom of speech is explicitly protected in the first amendment, there needs to be a pretty strong reason (much better than "it's offensive") to ban a type of speech.


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Happy mushrooming!


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848425 - 08/28/02 06:25 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Why all the bruhaha over the pledge of allegience to the flag, when it should be a pledge of allegience to the constitution? I think it's a case of the magicians trick of sleight of hand and redirection of attention from the more fundamental issues (involving fealty to constitutional principles) which threaten the republic. The flag is a piece of cloth, the constitution is the charter of the U.S. government and a contract between it and the states - consistently ignored by politicians of both major parties.


Edited by Anonymous (08/28/02 06:26 AM)


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OfflineEightball
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #848428 - 08/28/02 06:35 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

makes sense. no point in swearing to a flag, a banner, an object that simply represents some baffoons calling the shots. swearing to a list of ideas, values that we consider sacred to the existence of this country seems the more logical choice. but in the end its just a marketing game to get lemmings to trust their leaders and stand behind the COUNTRY instead of individual's morals which seem to keep themselves in check better than geee dubya.


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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleFrog31337
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #848450 - 08/28/02 06:52 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

True the flag is cloth, but swearing to it because it is a SYMBOL of our country. It symbolizes who we are, where we came from and what our collective ideals are. Personally I would like it to stay as is. I like the pledge as is because a majority of US citizens gain comfort by believing in some sort of 'god.' The phrase "under God" was added by congress in 1954 by the prompting of the Knights of Columbus. I quit saying the words 'under God' since I was in 4th grade, and that was 17 years ago. Just because I don't say 'under God' doesn't mean everyone shouldn't.


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Frog31337]
    #848464 - 08/28/02 07:04 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Symbolism over substance. An interesting concept.


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OfflineEightball
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Frog31337]
    #848468 - 08/28/02 07:07 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i think its rather arrogant and misleading for us to believe we somehow have god's support whatsoever. how bout "one nation in defiance to god"?


--------------------
If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on.you'll see devils tearing your life away.
But...if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels
Freeing you from the earth.


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InvisibleSoFarNorth
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #848553 - 08/28/02 08:17 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"I hope they rule the pledge unconstitutional. Anyone else hope so too?"

Not particularly. The pledge thing is a non-issue that is being used to suck up news media attention away from issues that have a real impact on the country. It's nothing but a smoke screen.


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"Those that would sacrifice essential liberties for some temporary safety deserve neither."
Ben Franklin


Edited by SoFarNorth (08/28/02 08:42 AM)


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Anonymous

Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #848604 - 08/28/02 08:37 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The pledge thing is a non-issue that is being used to suck up news media attention away from issues that have a real impact on the country. It's nothing but a smoke screen.

My sentiments exactly.


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InvisibleInnvertigo
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #848622 - 08/28/02 08:45 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree....i will admit i got sucked in at the beginning.

I like the magic trick analogy...while we look left (the under God issue) they grab right (individual freedoms)...


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America....FUCK YEAH!!!

Words of Wisdom: Individual Rights BEFORE Collective Rights

"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." -- Thomas Jefferson


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Offlinewingnutx
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #849354 - 08/28/02 03:11 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

You hit the nail on the head. I don't take the pledge very seriously. That's what my oath to 'support and defend the Constitution' is for. The POA was originally published ina children's magazine, and didn't say anything about god, even though it's author was a Baptist minister as well as socialist activist.

Still, it's a dumb court decision.


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Invisibletoxick
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: SoFarNorth]
    #849373 - 08/28/02 03:28 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

My thoughts exactly...

but while we're on the subject: Throw the whole fucking thing out.

I think Donahue summed it up well...

"Our constitution obliges no one to worship, pledge allegiance, or believe in anything, not the flag, not even the United States itself."


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Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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InvisibleGabbaDj
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: toxick]
    #849408 - 08/28/02 03:52 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The pledge was origionaly written without the words "under god".. They should just simply change it back...

The pledge of alegance is verry important to this country with all the terrorism and what not... Kids should be made to look at the flag every day and swear to protect its honor in one way or another..


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OfflineMurex
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #849419 - 08/28/02 03:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Fuck that.

Why should we have to pledge loyalty to it?
Aren't we allowed to burn it?




--------------------
What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know,
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection,
Is it all you want it to be?



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Invisibletoxick
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #849747 - 08/28/02 07:12 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It's a little creepy to me to make children pledge allegiance to anything...

SAY THE CHANT, YOU LITTLE FUCKING COMMUNIST.


--------------------
Janet Reno, if I do not go to jail, I will be in Orlando August 15 and you are not going to be elected to any damn thing. Nobody should fear our Government.
- James Traficant


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OfflineShroomSkin
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: toxick]
    #850685 - 08/29/02 09:26 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I was in my senior year when the 9-11 attacks happened, and everyday after we said the pledge of allegiance. I said it because I wanted to and I've always been kinda patriotic. I don't think people should be forced to say it however. I don't know if I believe in a God or not, but personally it doesn't bother me in the least. If you find the word "God" offensive, then you're just a really liberal pussy. I know atheists who aren't the least bit offended at it, because it doesn't reflect on your personal beliefs.


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Stay gold.


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OfflinePhluck
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Ellis Dee]
    #850720 - 08/29/02 09:49 AM (14 years, 3 months ago)

It's not a smoke screen intentionally put there to hide real issues. That's paranoid conspiracy nonsense. It is a stupid issue that's not really important. Should there be allusions to religion in it? No, of course not, but it doesn't really matter.

There's a rule in the Canadian house of commons that the MP's can't have any decorations on their desks. A few years ago, one of the Reform MP's was asked to remove a small Canadian flag from his desk and the Reform party went berserk. It's the same kind of issue, completely pointless to debate about because it really doesn't make any difference.

And Rail Gun, you say you're all for free speech? How come the "virtual child pornography" doesn't count? This would include drawings of child porn, or stories about sex with children? Or do the free speech guarantees only count when it's not something that you really, really disagree with?


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"I have no valid complaint against hustlers. No rational bitch. But the act of selling is repulsive to me. I harbor a secret urge to whack a salesman in the face, crack his teeth and put red bumps around his eyes." -Hunter S Thompson
http://phluck.is-after.us


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: ]
    #851306 - 08/29/02 02:44 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I always thought it was a metaphor.


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Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: Eightball]
    #851310 - 08/29/02 02:48 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

i think its rather arrogant and misleading for us to believe we somehow have god's support whatsoever.

Yeah it is kind of ridiculous to just assume that god supports the US. Why are religious folk always telling god what he supports and what he's done?

I bet god is fucking sick of all their shit



--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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InvisibleWhiskeyClone
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Re: The Pledge of Allegiance [Re: GabbaDj]
    #851319 - 08/29/02 02:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The pledge of alegance is verry important to this country with all the terrorism and what not... Kids should be made to look at the flag every day and swear to protect its honor in one way or another..

During my years in the public school system I was made to sing the Canadian national anthem over 2000 times. That is sick. It just becomes meaningless after it's drilled into our soft juvenile minds repeatedly. And why? To somehow lessen the chance of me becoming a goddam communist traitor. It's even worse in the states. They shove patriotism up children's asses because of the cold war.

I still don't know if you were joking or not.


--------------------
Welcome evermore to gods and men is the self-helping man.  For him all doors are flung wide: him all tongues greet, all honors crown, all eyes follow with desire.  Our love goes out to him and embraces him, because he did not need it.

~ R.W. Emerson, "Self-Reliance"

:heartpump:


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