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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: GI_Luvmoney]
    #12715782 -

All of them?:lol:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (06/09/10 06:02 PM)

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12715879 -

zappaisgod said:
I know this is like shouting down a cave for Connie and Tourist and their ilk but YOUR FRIENDS ARE LYING MURDERING FUCKS USING YOU FOOLS LIKE RENTED MULES!  You aren't even being played like a fiddle.  More like a broke bellows bagpipe.  And I'm sure we all know what that sounds like.
  GROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNNN.


Zappa, i know you're not used to living in the real world, with real people, so i'll be nice. But when you tell me my friends are "lying murdering fucks" are you referring to Zaid, from Ramullah (one of my closest friends) who is studying geography with me at school and whose political ideals of peace, socialism (remuneration based on work, not ownership), social/political justice, and a nonhierarchical participatory society I agree with fully? Or are you talking about my friend Mohammed, who just got his Masters in business from the same school, and who renounces violence even though he loathes the prospect of trying to run or advise businesses while under a military occupation? My other friend Khaled (forgot where in the West Bank he's from) is ardently pro-Palestine but is a huge wimp and wouldn't let himself hurt a fly. Or What about my friend Mahmoud from Gaza? He's the one Palestinian i know who does not openly state a belief that reactionary political violence is unsustainable and wrong, but then again all his home's windows were shattered during Cast Lead, 3 or 4 friends and acquaintances killed, a good handful wounded (one small kid seared by white phosphorus), and he was recently denied entry to Gaza and turned away fin May. It was his second failed attempt to go home, and it would have been his first time home in 6 years.

Cut the shit and grow the fuck up, Zappa.

Do you like the fact that you have probably been called something like a "lying, murdering fuck" because of your government's occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq, or overthrow of dozens of governments, or multitude of imperial wars, occupations and military operations?

"Palestinians" are not lying, murdering fucks. Some of them are. And i think that ANY group of people would have their fair share if they faced the same history that the Palestinians have.


By the way, I'm still debating whether I support only the large and growing peace movement in Palestine (before you accuse me of lying about its existence, either check up on it yourself, or quietly continue to not investigate any of this situation).
Just as a "mental exercise": even if the Palestinians were ALL "murdering fucks", as Zappa so intelligently posited (declared, rather), would we be able to criticize them legitimately? I don't mean foxnews or wolf blitzer-criticise, i mean have a reasonable and real debate about and analysis of it. I'm reminded of an Edward Said quote: "since when does a militarily occupied people have the responsibility to a form a peace movement?"
And before the occupation, the Palestinians fought back against subjugation, ethnic cleansing, relocation, and land expropriation. It amazes me how few people are willing to accept this.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12715900 -

Islam in a man is as dangerous as rabies in a dog.
--Sir Winston Churchill, 1899


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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12715984 -

The Palestinian people of the Gaza Strip elected a terrorst group to lead their government.  That's all anybody needs to know about just how many Gaza Strip Palestinians are lying murdering fucks.  And the useful idiots who support them are aiding and abetting lying murdering fucks.  If that includes your friends then.......... If it doesn't then............

The Palestinian people?  They are their own worst enemy.  Although they largely seem to have gotten their heads at least partially out of their asses in the West Bank.  But the Gaza Strip?  Fuck them completely.


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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12720196 -

Hey Tourist,

Keep pushing this propaganda nonsense (ethnic cleansing, imperial wars blah blah blah) straight out of Soviet Union and HAMAS propaganda departments. It still won't change the fact that you basically ok/supportive of people who either themselves participate or support things like feeding children Jew-eating rabbit type murderous propaganda, deliberately murder innocent children and after publicly dance in the streets just to express their collective orgasm over this murder. That would be HAMAS, FATAH and everybody who truly supports them.

Why the hell should anyone care who your friends are anyway?

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: AlexD]
    #12721575 -

The "nonsense" about ethnic cleansing and imperial wars is Soviet and Hamas propaganda?
Hmmm.
The original ethnic cleansing in '48 that Israel was founded on has continued off and on right up until today, often less violently. I'll give it Gideon Levy, referring to East Jerusalem a few months ago, for this one: "we must not forget that this huge building project in Jerusalem is for Jews only; not one Palestinian neighborhood has been built in 43 years of occupation. Should that not be called apartheid?"
Did you know that over 400,000 settlers live in the Jewish-only colonies inside the West Bank? Can you figure out whose homes and land had to be torn up to build them?
As far as Gaza goes, i'd love to see a group of 1.5 million people-- mostly refugees, imprisoned in a small space and isolated from the outside world, and routinely bombed, intimidated, shot at, and oppressed by a foreign government-- act in an idealistic, peaceful way towards that government. I personally think that if the Mexican government treated, say, Phoenix, exactly the same way Israel has treated Gaza and a terroristic government even worse than the U.S. federal government were elected, the response against Mexico would be incalculably worse-- and few Americans would blame them.
Sadly, Gazans are brown Muslims, and therefore, to the West, they had whatever it is coming to them.


--------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society"
Jiddu Krishnamurti

"That's a marvelous structural technique of propaganda... It is only in folk tales, children's stories, and the journals of intellectual opinion that power is used wisely and well to destroy evil. The real world teaches very different lessons, and it takes willful and dedicated ignorance to fail to perceive them.”
Noam Chomsky

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12721743 -

I like your sig quotes.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12721982 -

The Tourist said:
The "nonsense" about ethnic cleansing and imperial wars is Soviet and Hamas propaganda?
Hmmm.
The original ethnic cleansing in '48 that Israel was founded on has continued off and on right up until today, often less violently.


Amazingly the ethnically cleansed Israel has Arabs in it's parlaiment.  How many Jews hold seats in the government of:
Egypt
Syria
Jordan
Lebanon
Iran
Iraq
Saudi Arabia
Etfucking cetera
Quote:
I'll give it Gideon Levy, referring to East Jerusalem a few months ago, for this one: "we must not forget that this huge building project in Jerusalem is for Jews only; not one Palestinian neighborhood has been built in 43 years of occupation. Should that not be called apartheid?"


In Jerusalem?  A tiny part of the West Bank?  What building project and what makes you think that there has not been any increase in the "Palestinian" population of Jerusalem in 43 years?
Quote:
Did you know that over 400,000 settlers live in the Jewish-only colonies inside the West Bank? Can you figure out whose homes and land had to be torn up to build them?


No.bodies, for the most part.  It was completely empty land
Quote:
As far as Gaza goes, i'd love to see a group of 1.5 million people-- mostly refugees, imprisoned in a small space and isolated from the outside world, and routinely bombed, intimidated, shot at, and oppressed by a foreign government-- act in an idealistic, peaceful way towards that government.


My what a fantasy you live in.  Mostly refugees?  If they've lived there for 43 years are they still refugees?  I'm sorry to tell you thisbut the Israelis just plain gave them the Gaza Strip and what they did with it was use it as a launching pad for attacks against Israel.  They weren't imprisoned there at all.  Anent to that, and what the Israel hating morons contiinue to ignore is this inconvenient fact:
EGYPT IS ALSO BLOCKADING THESE MURDERING FUCKHEADS!
Not only do the Israelis think these people are a complete anathema to humanity but so do most of their Arab con freres.  Yep.  It's true.
Quote:
I personally think that if the Mexican government treated, say, Phoenix, exactly the same way Israel has treated Gaza and a terroristic government even worse than the U.S. federal government were elected, the response against Mexico would be incalculably worse-- and few Americans would blame them.


What a stunningly stupid analogy.  Aside from your poor map skills (think Tucson instead) if the government of Phoenix was regularly shelling Mexico and sending bombladen children into Mexico city I do believe the US government would take action long before the Mexican government would have to.  But because murder is part of the government of Hamas's charter that can't happen.
Quote:
Sadly, Gazans are brown Muslims, and therefore, to the West, they had whatever it is coming to them.


Yet another fool who thinks that bad behavior should be excused because of skin color.


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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #12722599 -

its all cause and effect.

rhineland is occupied, poverty and despiration leads to a society that is willing to give hitler a go.

Hitler employs final solution, which gives way to a conciousness that is willing and motivated to create Isreal

The creation of Isreal displaces people in the land, which leads to years of conflict with its neighbours, jews living in the area is much different to a Zionist state placed in an extremely silly place.(depending on long term goals)

Because of the conflict and Isreal's military power and proficiency, it pushes its boarders outwards futher displacing people and cutting them off from fresh water, the desperation of the people leads to a conciousness that allows Hamas to be "democratically" elected.

Rhineland occupation comes full circle.

nobody is born evil not to my experience, people are conditioned that way, it seems futile directing one's anger against people when they are the result of conditioning, same goes for the Zionists that endorse violence too.

Its like taking medication to treat the symptoms, rather than the disease.

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: The Tourist]
    #12724165 -

Quote:
i'd love to see a group of 1.5 million people-- mostly refugees, imprisoned in a small space and isolated from the outside world, and routinely bombed, intimidated, shot at, and oppressed by a foreign government-- act in an idealistic, peaceful way towards that government.



Your determination to deny obvious facts and spout HAMAS propaganda talking points is impressive. Reality however has some interesting things to offer as well. If one of these days you decide to check it, you'll find out that Israel acts as civilized towards Pallys as humanly possible. Which is why when HAMAS needs something to justify it's propaganda it resorts to making ridiculous fakes (google pallywood or "gaza fauxtography" I remember this gem http://www.stinkyjournalism.org/editordetail.php?id=167 ) or firing rockets from schools hoping Israel would retaliate.

Also it's not about them not acting in "idealistic, peaceful way". It's about them acting like murder-crazed lunatics they are as if they made it their goal to put Nazis to shame. And it's about you being just cool with that.

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: AlexD]
    #12724691 -

AlexD said:
Reality however has some interesting things to offer as well. If one of these days you decide to check it, you'll find out that Israel acts as civilized towards Pallys as humanly possible.



:laugh2:


And you have the nerve to say "Your determination to deny obvious facts" ?

You really couldn't make this up :hehehe:

Do carry on :biggrin:


--------------------
Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming– “Wow! What a Ride!”

    — Hunter S. Thompson

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: Connie]
    #12724722 -

The trouble is Connie  you refuse to address most specific points in this discussion. This kind of comeback is about all I see from you. So if you do have a case you sure don't present much of it.:shrug:

And I'm the guy that says most likely neither side is fully innocent. You've lost this debate imo.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

Edited by Icelander (06/11/10 12:20 PM)

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: Icelander]
    #12727314 -

Did Israel cross the (border)line to build settlements?

A: yes.


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http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

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Re: Did Israel Cross the Line? [Re: Shins]
    #12727424 -

"Because your land is mine, I cross the line."

:satansmoking:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: Icelander]
    #12727846 -

This is an interesting opinion by Amitakh Stanford. The only chance for peace is a two state solution. Both the Palestinian state and the Israeli state need to have a seaport and continuous borders. The neighbouring muslim nations should think about granting some land to the Palestinians. However, now we are getting to the crucial part, which is Jerusalem. Jerusalem needs to be either wholly in Palestine or wholly in Israel. A "Berlin Wall" will not work, there would be continued friction and threats of war. Both Israelis and Palestinians are religious, so they should be open to an unconventional solution:

http://www.flyingbuffaloes7.net/keluar9.html

O Jerusalem, take heed. The current situation in Israel is untenable; there is an unending conflict between the Palestinians and the Jews. Jewish inhabitants distrust the Palestinians, and vice versa. The age-old struggle between them has cost many lives, much hardship and untold sorrow. The conflict has generated tremendous anger, hatred and distrust – forcing them to live under a single umbrella has proven to be a formula for unending friction.

. . .

Jerusalem is a major sticking point in regard to a two-state solution, which affects not only the parties, but peace in the region. Both sides have long-standing reasons to be inflexible regarding the city. Both sides have long historical, cultural and religious reasons for their intransigence regarding Jerusalem. This has led many people to insist that the two-state solution have a shared Jerusalem. That is, severing Jerusalem in twain, part to one nation and part to another, or granting co-ownership of the city to both nation states. Are either of these proposals wise?

The twentieth century saw what happened when secular powers divided up Berlin into sections. The situation was so bellicose that the Berlin Wall was erected to section off the city. For decades, the Wall divided the people and caused tremendous misery until it was finally demolished.

The same mentality of erecting “Berlin Walls” is very active in modern-day Israel, as is seen by the walled-off sections of the West Bank. Fencing off sections of Berlin did not work, and it should not be encouraged in Jerusalem. Further, if there are national borders running through the city of Jerusalem, it will guarantee that there will be continued friction and bloodshed in the city.

It is understood that neither party wants to relinquish all rights to Jerusalem, but, in reality, to have lasting peace in the area, is there any other choice? I suggest that there is not. Many centuries of conflict support my position. Therefore, in my opinion, Jerusalem should either be wholly within the nation of Israel or wholly within the newly created Palestinian state. To accomplish this, one side or the other would necessarily have to relinquish Jerusalem voluntarily, if it is to be settled amicably. It should be realized that the side that vacates Jerusalem should be amply compensated for it when boundaries for the two newly-formed nation states are drawn.

Clearly, both parties’ claims to Jerusalem are heavily based on religious grounds. If neither side will voluntarily relinquish the city, then, after solemn prayers, a lot should be cast over which nation state will house Jerusalem. Those who sincerely believe in the Divine should accept that the lot will result in the Divine’s will being carried out.

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Re: O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: Wilthos]
    #12727898 -


The same mentality of erecting “Berlin Walls” is very active in modern-day Israel, as is seen by the walled-off sections of the West Bank. Fencing off sections of Berlin did not work, and it should not be encouraged in Jerusalem. Further, if there are national borders running through the city of Jerusalem, it will guarantee that there will be continued friction and bloodshed in the city.

The Berlin wall was not a great hardship for one side other than the separation of relatives. I'm not sure that's a good comparison.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: Icelander]
    #12728264 -

zappaisgod and alexd always replying the same shit at the same time, we have a double troll here?


--------------------
Been away so long I hardly knew the place
Gee, it's good to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to unpack my case
Honey disconnect the phone
I'm back in the USSA
You don't know how lucky you are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSA

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Re: O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: tomnl]
    #12728791 -

I had no idea this thread would make it to 28 pages.

They're all douche bags with outdated beliefs.



Edited to be less harsh


--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus species prints. Msg me for trades.

Edited by BlimeyGrimey (06/12/10 02:01 AM)

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Re: O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: BlimeyGrimey]
    #12728807 -

Well the fighting over religious sites is super stoopid to me and anyone who goes in for the wrathful/vengeful god superstitions is a cracked up nutcase.:lol:

What can you expect from primates?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Re: O Jerusalem, Take Heed [Re: Icelander]
    #12729366 -

I'd expect much more, since we've made it this far. :frown:



--------------------
Message me for free microscopy services on Psilocybe, Panaeolus, and Gymnopilus species.

Looking for wild Panaeolus species prints. Msg me for trades.

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